@thinwater , isn't the point of this so you don't have to access the back to get the winch off? Hence, only threaded holes in the plate, no nuts?
Winch stress
- Thread starter dLj
- Start date
Yes and no.
Often the problem is that you are working alone and these is no one available to hold the bolts still. This solves that problem. but no, not the other. But from what I saw, the OP can get to the backs without much trouble.
Another solution is to use the best lubes, use covers, and stretch the interval to 3-5 years. Use Valvoline 85W-140 instead of pawl oil (pawl oil evaporates in ~ 18 months), or perhaps a very light smear of grease, as Antal specifies.
The real solution is a winch you can service from on-deck, but winches are $$$.
Often the problem is that you are working alone and these is no one available to hold the bolts still. This solves that problem. but no, not the other. But from what I saw, the OP can get to the backs without much trouble.
Another solution is to use the best lubes, use covers, and stretch the interval to 3-5 years. Use Valvoline 85W-140 instead of pawl oil (pawl oil evaporates in ~ 18 months), or perhaps a very light smear of grease, as Antal specifies.
The real solution is a winch you can service from on-deck, but winches are $$$.
Lots of good ideas here. I am seeing that the butyl tape is not for this application. Plus, where these winches are located, there is no core. It's just solid fiberglass. I need to be able to turn the screws from the top to remove/re-install the winches. That's the point of this whole problem...
I was thinking of the 3/8" stainless plates to avoid the dissimilar metal corrosion between the screws and the plate, so I'm still on the fence there. I'm kind of dreading the idea of threading 10 holes in 3/8" plate stainless.... Although if I can get a 3/8" stainless plate with matching drilled and taped holes for these winches for only $40 made by someone, that would be the way to go. I'll look into that.
And yes, the original idea is so I don't have to crawl into the darned compartment and take on/off nuts. However, if I only have to go in and out twice, one to remove and one to replace nuts, that's not too bad. Beats a minimum of 10 times per winch...
I'm definitely not spending the $'s on new winches... That's way over budget!
Thanks much everyone! I'll keep you posted as to how this evolves.
dj
I was thinking of the 3/8" stainless plates to avoid the dissimilar metal corrosion between the screws and the plate, so I'm still on the fence there. I'm kind of dreading the idea of threading 10 holes in 3/8" plate stainless.... Although if I can get a 3/8" stainless plate with matching drilled and taped holes for these winches for only $40 made by someone, that would be the way to go. I'll look into that.
And yes, the original idea is so I don't have to crawl into the darned compartment and take on/off nuts. However, if I only have to go in and out twice, one to remove and one to replace nuts, that's not too bad. Beats a minimum of 10 times per winch...
I'm definitely not spending the $'s on new winches... That's way over budget!
Thanks much everyone! I'll keep you posted as to how this evolves.
dj
@dLj not sure why you say butyl is not needed. It serves as a caulk sealant to stop water from getting into your boat via the 10 holes you have in the boat.
Follow the prep as outlined here https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/ by countersinking the surface holes and wrap butyl around the heads of each screw so the butyl fills the countersink hole. (This means you push the screws through the winch bottom plate, Wrap the screw threads on the bolt near where they are poking out of the bottom of the winch plate with butyl. Then guide the 5 screws into the deck. As you position the winch the butyl fills the couture sink hole and snugs up around the threads stopping water intrusion.)
No leaks. Keeps the metal parts beneath the holes from corroding.
Follow the prep as outlined here https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/ by countersinking the surface holes and wrap butyl around the heads of each screw so the butyl fills the countersink hole. (This means you push the screws through the winch bottom plate, Wrap the screw threads on the bolt near where they are poking out of the bottom of the winch plate with butyl. Then guide the 5 screws into the deck. As you position the winch the butyl fills the couture sink hole and snugs up around the threads stopping water intrusion.)
No leaks. Keeps the metal parts beneath the holes from corroding.
The directions say that you are not supposed to turn the screws that you have put in from the top. The whole function I'm doing is to only turn the screws from the top. According to the directions, as I understand it, is to tighten the screws by tightening the nuts from underneath holding the screws from the top so the screws don't rotate allowing the seal to be maintained. The function I need is not this at all.
dj
dj
I agree with @dLj on this one, @jssailem . This is different than a stanchion. The screws are somewhat elevated from the deck, and covered by the winch when it's assembled.
You might just bed the base with butyl, which would prevent water running on the mounting surface from draining into the screw holes.
You might just bed the base with butyl, which would prevent water running on the mounting surface from draining into the screw holes.
That makes sense. I may counter sink the holes and drop some butyl there also, that should help. But I can't really seal the screws per the instructions. Those instructions are for fixed hardware. I have lot's of uses for this stuff.
dj
dj
I'm still struggling with the idea of a winch that needs to come off for service. Ouch. I'd be thinking hard about things I could do to lengthen the interval.
* Covers.
* Better lubes. There has been progress in the last 75 years.
* Turn the winch in the off season.
* Is partial cleaning possible without removal?
I'm betting 5 years is very, very reasonable with the right products and procedures. I've seen horror stories, but I've also seen winches that I know have been 5-10 years that were done right and were barely dirty and smooth as silk, with no wear (the winches in all cases were 20+ years). Quality synthetics and no, pawl oil won't last that long.
* Covers.
* Better lubes. There has been progress in the last 75 years.
* Turn the winch in the off season.
* Is partial cleaning possible without removal?
I'm betting 5 years is very, very reasonable with the right products and procedures. I've seen horror stories, but I've also seen winches that I know have been 5-10 years that were done right and were barely dirty and smooth as silk, with no wear (the winches in all cases were 20+ years). Quality synthetics and no, pawl oil won't last that long.
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Probably one of the reasons this model was discontinued in the '80's. Looking everything over I don't think once a year service would be too bad if I get them set up to be removed from the top by one person, or possibly with only two trips to the backside.
I'd love to get new winches that don't need to be removed, but I'd love even more if I found those at the price I'd perfer to pay - but surely no one is selling a pair for that little $'s.. LOL
And yes, you can oil the pawls without taking them off once you know where they are. You just can't clean them, not even close..
dj
I'd love to get new winches that don't need to be removed, but I'd love even more if I found those at the price I'd perfer to pay - but surely no one is selling a pair for that little $'s.. LOL
And yes, you can oil the pawls without taking them off once you know where they are. You just can't clean them, not even close..
dj
Although I picked up this thread right from dLj's opening post, decided only to chime in -- quite late.
Certainly the idea of a five hole threaded plate epoxied in place from below benefits frequent winch servicing. (On this wouldn't bronze or brass also be a suitable metal? Al vs SS corrosion isn't an issue. And much easier to thread than stainless steel.)
But I would encourage you to consider the merits of MI's and thinwater's observation which is similar to my first thought when reading the opening post. He cites several reasons why complete winch breakdown each season might be extended much longer. Another is you are on fresh water, not salt. How often do you sail each season? And will you actually do a complete breakdown as frequently as you envision?
The main stress on a winch is on those large roller bearing you picture with your opening post. Since they, and the winch drum are removed easily with the winch base still mounted, cleaning and application of new Lewmar recommended lube is a snap. The make/model of the winches I didn't see, but I assume that somewhere there must be an opening to spray in some lube without removing the winch base? For the pawls, just a squirt of light aerosol spray lube should keep them operating freely over the years. And a thicker product like spray garage door hinge/chain lube will do similar for the gears.
In 2007, after buying my 1980 Cherubini Hunter, I found the cabin top and primary winches OEM (Barrient's) a mess with gads of hard cake-on grease. Like they hadn't been cleaned for decades. Just more grease kept being haphazardly applied by the boat's sequential PO's. But the winches were still functioning. After prolonged soaking of the disassembled winches in diesel fuel, I eventually exposed the underlying bronze and stainless parts. Everything still fit snugly without excessive play.
Sailing single handed all the time (even with guests), I did replace the OEM primary winches with new Harken self-tailing ones which can be fully broken down without removing the base. With these, I got a bit slack and went five years without any winch maintenance until this year. I cleaned off all the old lube and applied new Harken grease. Light oiled the pawls. I noted really how clean the gears still were and that the previous application of winch grease looked to still provide at least some benefit. I almost wished for a spray product that would soften up and "reactivate" the existing coat! Yes, we are supposed to service winches every season. But in the real world?
Certainly the idea of a five hole threaded plate epoxied in place from below benefits frequent winch servicing. (On this wouldn't bronze or brass also be a suitable metal? Al vs SS corrosion isn't an issue. And much easier to thread than stainless steel.)
But I would encourage you to consider the merits of MI's and thinwater's observation which is similar to my first thought when reading the opening post. He cites several reasons why complete winch breakdown each season might be extended much longer. Another is you are on fresh water, not salt. How often do you sail each season? And will you actually do a complete breakdown as frequently as you envision?
The main stress on a winch is on those large roller bearing you picture with your opening post. Since they, and the winch drum are removed easily with the winch base still mounted, cleaning and application of new Lewmar recommended lube is a snap. The make/model of the winches I didn't see, but I assume that somewhere there must be an opening to spray in some lube without removing the winch base? For the pawls, just a squirt of light aerosol spray lube should keep them operating freely over the years. And a thicker product like spray garage door hinge/chain lube will do similar for the gears.
In 2007, after buying my 1980 Cherubini Hunter, I found the cabin top and primary winches OEM (Barrient's) a mess with gads of hard cake-on grease. Like they hadn't been cleaned for decades. Just more grease kept being haphazardly applied by the boat's sequential PO's. But the winches were still functioning. After prolonged soaking of the disassembled winches in diesel fuel, I eventually exposed the underlying bronze and stainless parts. Everything still fit snugly without excessive play.
Sailing single handed all the time (even with guests), I did replace the OEM primary winches with new Harken self-tailing ones which can be fully broken down without removing the base. With these, I got a bit slack and went five years without any winch maintenance until this year. I cleaned off all the old lube and applied new Harken grease. Light oiled the pawls. I noted really how clean the gears still were and that the previous application of winch grease looked to still provide at least some benefit. I almost wished for a spray product that would soften up and "reactivate" the existing coat! Yes, we are supposed to service winches every season. But in the real world?
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Certainly a total bummer then for owners of this winch! Even my late 70's vintage Barient 25's (now serving duty in the crawlspace under my house for the past 11 years) had means to remove/inspect/clean parts without uninstalling the entire winch from the boat.
dLj: What make/model installed on your boat? Just curious. If a breakdown diagram and manufacturer instructions are of any use at this stage, and you don't have, this link provides many of the winches installed on our vintage boats ... http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/indexes/winches.htm
dLj: What make/model installed on your boat? Just curious. If a breakdown diagram and manufacturer instructions are of any use at this stage, and you don't have, this link provides many of the winches installed on our vintage boats ... http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/indexes/winches.htm
Tell me about it.
Your link is helpful. The Lewmar winch closest to ours is found here:
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/winches/lewmar/16-2sp.htm
There are a couple of differences but it's close.
Thanks for posting.
G.
Your link is helpful. The Lewmar winch closest to ours is found here:
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/winches/lewmar/16-2sp.htm
There are a couple of differences but it's close.
Thanks for posting.
G.
I have no idea if I will really pull the winches off every year for compete servicing, but I might. It would certainly be more likely if it were easy to do... As far as corrosion, yes, all the alloys mentioned would work. However, unless going to one of the tough copper based alloys, I would not rely on the strength of the threaded connection. That applies also to many aluminum alloys. As mentioned previously, a 7075 Al alloy might work fine. The main concern is the repeated use aspect.
Thank you for the links, none appear to be exactly the model I have, although one is quite close. Lewmar was kind enough to send me the Service Manual for these winches, mine are the two speed 40's. There were introduced in early 1976 and discontinued in 1980, according to the manual they sent me. I'd attach it here but the file size is apparently too large. I don't imagine Lewmar would mind. Should I check with them? I think I will, might be better all around.
dj
Thank you for the links, none appear to be exactly the model I have, although one is quite close. Lewmar was kind enough to send me the Service Manual for these winches, mine are the two speed 40's. There were introduced in early 1976 and discontinued in 1980, according to the manual they sent me. I'd attach it here but the file size is apparently too large. I don't imagine Lewmar would mind. Should I check with them? I think I will, might be better all around.
dj