Winch position-retrofit pedastal, originally tiller

Stu Jackson · Mar 31, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
Do I need to move these winches back inline with the wheel, if I am going to be singlehanding?

If you think you need to.

I don't. I singlehand a lot. I set the AP and stay in front of the wheel 99% of the time. I like the placement of the winches in the normal cockpit position..

Also consider this: if you ever have crew, they're gonna be hard pressed to run the winches when they're behind the wheel.

jibes138 · Apr 1, 2009

personal preference

y like to sit on either the port or starboard side of the boat and pull on the wheel to keep her running true by sighting along one rail or the other. If you boat has a little weather helm then if you are sitting on the windward side of the boat you will apply a little force by pulling on the wheel with one hand. To turn the other way you simply releive pressure on the rudder and it will automatically turn. Pulling with your arm is much more ergonomically comfortable than trying to turn the wheel sitting directly behind it. Standing is OK because you are pulling up but try standing for four hours or so single handing and I think you'll prefer sitting or at least moving around to different positions. Remember this is not a car, you don't have power steering, the force to turn the rudder is all mechanical adn while the system gives you mechanical advantage it is still wearing on you. Sitting on one side if in site of something to get a bearing allows you to track straight and true. I get the best fell of the boat in this position. Also sitting on the windward side while the boat is heeling allows you to see boats coming from your straboard side who are stand on vessels, meaning you are the give way vessel. The only time I like sitting behind the wheel is downwind on a run. Then the boat is not heeling and you can see ok. There is less pressure on the rudder and it is comfortable. Sitting on the side you will then want the winches forward of your position a little. On my O'day the winches are positioned forward of the wheel and i find them fine. Keep in mind your mainsheet is also forward and also needs adjusting. Just use the brake on your pedastal to keep you tracking for a few seconds while you do your trimming. After sailing for a while and trying these things you can then decide to change if you have a preference. You'll find that access to the winches down below is likely a cutout with a cap so moving them may be a bigger job than expected. Also see if that section of the coaming is reinforced for the forces involved.

sailingdog · Apr 1, 2009

Hermit—

You don't really have a good photo of the cockpit with regards to the genny winches on your myspace page.

If you're considering moving them, you really need to consider the lead to the winches from the genoa sheet blocks and the strength of the surface you'll be mounting them on.

Personally, I would leave them where they are and learn to sail the boat with them there.

larryw · Apr 1, 2009

Like Stu says; learn to handle the helm from in front of the wheel. You'll find you really don't need all that adjusting if you're cruising and if you're racing, you'll have crew, unless you're singlehand racing, in which case, you'll either get fit or die. Either way, don't move the winches.

Stu Jackson · Apr 1, 2009

jibes138 said:
....like to sit on either the port or starboard side of the boat and pull on the wheel to keep her running true by sighting along one rail or the other.

1. Remember this is not a car, you don't have power steering, the force to turn the rudder is all mechanical adn while the system gives you mechanical advantage it is still wearing on you.

2. Also sitting on the windward side while the boat is heeling allows you to see boats coming from your straboard side who are stand on vessels, meaning you are the give way vessel.

3. The only time I like sitting behind the wheel is downwind on a run. Then the boat is not heeling and you can see ok.

4. After sailing for a while and trying these things you can then decide to change if you have a preference. You'll find that access to the winches down below is likely a cutout with a cap so moving them may be a bigger job than expected. Also see if that section of the coaming is reinforced for the forces involved.

************************

1. If the sails are trimmed properly, there should be little pressure on the wheel or rudder

2. I don't get this one at all!

It all depends on what tack you are on.

3. I agree completely. It's safer, for one, because you're behind the aft-most point of the boom, plus you almost NEED to be there to steer properly.

4. Very good point. To move our winches back on our C34s, which only a very, very small handful of folks have done, requires additional access from below, which is tremendously difficult on one particular side of the boat.

Hermit - I think one of the reasons people get "obsessed" with this "behind the "wheel" thing is the advent of those humongous navpod electronics arrays that are placed at the binnacle, almost "requiring" the skipper to be back there. I find that horribly constraining and we are relative minimalists when it comes to that stuff. We have our ST3000 control head in the middle, between the cockpit and the wheel, easily accessible from either side. We have two Snap-It white plastic holders for our GPSs attached to the binnacle, with the raditional teak cup holder. On the side of the cup holder I put in a footman's loop for hanging the handheld VHF. Everything is there, but I don't have to look over, through or around a big splash of plastic and electronics. I singlehand a lot with this arrangement.

While I fully understand your "chance" to make the move now, what I recommend is that you try out what you have for awhile until YOU feel that's it's the right decision for YOU, since you haven't had much expereicnce yet sailing your new-to-you boat.

BobM · Apr 1, 2009

I agree, try it out first

Hermit,

I was quite concerned about this as well when I bought Triple Play.

It really has turned out to be a non-issue for single handing, even though I may have to take a few seconds to reach over to uncleat and let the jib sheet go and then reel it in on the other side. A 30 footer is big enough that it really won't happen all that fast and once you get some practice in you should be able to pull the sheet in without even using a winch handle.

Plus once the wheel is straight on the new course and the headsail has crossed I can even hold the wheel with my hip if necesary while I trim the genoa. Given the expense and the trouble I wouldn't bother moving them or mounting additional winches...unless I really scored a deal of course.

I posted a photo of my deck to give you an idea of where mine are located. I may have a couple of advantages over you in that I have a tee shaped cockpit which makes leaning over easier and that I probably have a longer reach.

Bob

Stu Jackson · Apr 1, 2009

Hermit, I forgot say

that you can "run" the wheel from in front of the binnacle! So basic, sorry I forgot that important issue to share with you. I don't even use the wheel "brake" at all.

larryw · Apr 2, 2009

Hermit,
I sailed a C-30 for years, most of it singlehanded, even raced. The winch position is fine. If you go changing it, you'll likelly decrease the value of the boat. You can sit on the coaming, keep one hand on the wheel, and crank the winch. They are self-tailing. Learn to go with what you have. You don't alway need the winch for mainsheet adjustments. I used to stand up in the cockpit, grab the boom and haul it to weather with one hand and snatch up the mainsheet slack. Worked well for the traveler, too. I'm not talking 25 kts of wind here, but it is possible even up to 15. You can even luff up a tad to take the load off the main, make a quick adjustment, then fall off to your course again. Explore your own techniques and think twice before you drill holes.

BobM · Apr 2, 2009

Plus with a boat babe like yours it would be a crime to single hand a lot...so to speak ;-)

rpwillia · Apr 2, 2009

Hermit, You C30 is very similar to my 310. I am assuming that you do not have self tailing winches. I once sailed a C30 I was thinking about buying and he had a wheel with two cleats on the back of the cockpit. Without thinking about it while we were sailing I just grabbed the sheet wrapped it around the winch, took it behind the wheel, hauled it in and wrapped it around the cleat behind me. He immediately commented that he "always wondered what they were there for." Here is a picture of my US27 with the winch and cleat positions circled.

jibes138 · Apr 2, 2009

response to stu

I probably had a couple glasses of wine before writing. Even when the sails are trimmed well a little weather helm is a safety feature and weather helm at 5 knots of wind is a lot of weather helm at 20 knots of wind, so if you have gusty conditions the forces on the wheel can vary quite a lot and rapidly. What I was trying to say is I like to sit to one side or the other of the wheel and sight along the rail of the boat. Having the weight to windward helps counter heeling, and frankly regardless of the special shaped seats behind the wheel it is not comfortable to be sitting behind the wheel with the boat heeling 10 or 15 degrees. Now let's say you are on starboard tack on a beat. Wind is maybe 15 knots and the boat heeling about 10 degrees. There is a slight weather helm as designed into the system. Sitting up on the starboard side you can hold the wheel in one hand and with a couple of fingers of pressure keep the boat tracking true. If the wind kicks up and the helm increases pressure a bit add another finger of pressure to your grip. I usually hold the spokes of the wheel while doing this. If I know for certain there is no other boat traffic I sometimes will sit on the leeward side as it is more comfortable since there is no tendency to slide down the hill, but visibility is limited to the windward side due to the heel. This is better with a crew to keep a lookout but is definitely the most comfortable way to steer. From either position the winches are right where you want them a little in front of the wheel.

rpwillia · Apr 3, 2009

Reply

Hermit Scott said:
rpwilla-is your traveller in the cockpit? I thought about installing those spinlock rope cleats to replace the regular ones. I really need to go sailing with someone else so they can show me the ropes so I won't have to figure everything out on my own.
I am not sure if my boat babe wants to help with the sailing. Eventually I will have to impress her into service if we ever take any extended cruises. Then she will be single handing while I sleep. I'm trying to plan an easy singlehanded set up with her in mind as well.
And I don't have self tailing winches. I am not really sure what self tailing winches do. Do they eliminate the need for a clete?

Hermit, On my 310 the traveller is over the coach roof. I did modify the main sheet and added a cam cleat to the jam cleat to make it more friendly in light winds. On my old US27 the traveller was in the front of the cockpit by the hatch and was a bit of a pain to reach. I did add extra long lines and blocks on each side so if I felt inspired to move the traveller from side to side I could do it from behind the wheel as opposed to just letting the main out.

I attached a picture of a self tailing winch from Lewmar's web site. http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=49. These really are the cats meow. When I got my 310 I had never seen them in use, but once I did I was hooked - a whole lot easier than having to tail. But, If you look at the Winch Self Tailers picture, these are rubber add-ons that work pretty well on just about any winch. I had these on my US27 and they were pretty helpful in lighter air, and in heavier air you still have the cleats.

Do you have cleat behind you in the cockpit? I know the one C30 I sailed the owner was not a handyman so they may have been factory.

larryw · Apr 3, 2009

Hermit- my error; I saw those pics of the winches and I assumed they were yours, but on second look, they belong to Stu- that changes a few things. When I bought my '82 C-30, the first thing I did was put a pair of self-tailing winches on it. The self-tail feature makes the winch a one-handed operation. See if there are any marine gear re-sellers in your area. I bought mine from such a place at a discount because they had been discontinued by the mfr, but SoCal is full of used marine gear. Try for some self-tailers, but those rubber things are better than nothing. Get your boat babe on the wheel. Teach her the basics of wind awareness and pretty soon she'll be your voice-activated AP, and she'll be more interested in the whole thing cause she's participating, not just sitting there. Worked for me 20-odd years ago.

Stu Jackson · Apr 3, 2009

larryw said:
1. Try for some self-tailers, but those rubber things are better than nothing.

2. Get your boat babe on the wheel. Teach her the basics of wind awareness and pretty soon she'll be your voice-activated AP, and she'll be more interested in the whole thing cause she's participating, not just sitting there. Worked for me 20-odd years ago.

1. "Abosolutely" true. I used them for 12 years on our C25 and almost never even needed to use the cleats.

2. Also very true. At first you'll be balancing your fear, it really is that, until you get the feel of it. We all have a tad of it when we get our new-to-us boats, especially when moving up in size. But avoid the dreaded Captain Bligh syndrome and get her involved. Steering is a very comfortable place for any guests, visitors or crew when first starting out. She's seen you drop blood, sweat and tears into your new boat, and you want her to be part of it. Sitting and watching you do all the work may have been fun for her

but once you start to reap the benefits of your hard work, you should both be able to enjoy the sailing. If you don't start off on the right foot, it'll be hell to pay to turn it around and have her join you in your long range plans. Besides, while us "skippers" are sometimes loathe to admit it, we usually need all the help we can get!:naughty:

Winch position-retrofit pedastal, originally tiller

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