Will Asymmetrical Spinnaker work?
- Thread starter pumpkinpie
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I guess its version 1. The Marlow website is pitching version 2. Its cool stuff, hopefully it lasts a few years, nowhere does anybody say anything about uv stability. This video was the inspiration. The A2 is a freakin huge sail, and i wanted mine to be something in the same time zone. Its all about the no wind high pressure days we have up here.
Yes the A2 has the “womper” quality!
Big kite can certainly turn a boring sail day into an enjoyable experience.
The torsion rope is amazing to me. A piece of “flexible” material that will fold up in a hockey bag that acts like a metal rod when deployed.
It’s clear in the video that the key for successful furling is for the top to rotate in sync with the bottom.
From what I read about synthetic standing rigging is seems to be handling UV pretty well. With the torsion rope having multiple “layers” it probably wouldn’t catastrophically fail.
Just trying to learn something. Do you mean the luff length compared to the foot ratio or ???
The luff has to be in the same time zone as the length of the torsion rope that it roll up on. (how to explain this...) The rope is 10'. The sail luff is 20'. It won't roll up cleanly, there will be folds and overlap. If the luff is 10' on a 10' rope, you'll never get a decent sail shape. So, somewhere between 10 and 20 is the spot where the sail will operate properly on the furler and fly like a proper A sail.
Obviously the numbers are for example, but hopefully the point is clear.
By further example, if you look at the picture of mine that was referenced, note that the kite is flying without the furler, but imagine a line from the tack at the sprit, going up and to the right, and it would intersect at approximately the point where the fore stay meets the mast. Give or take, that line would be about 1/2 way between the furler and the luff in this picture. That's what Judy means. The luff is going to be longer than the torsion line. Too much and it won't roll up clean. Too little and the sail won't fly nicely.
Obviously the numbers are for example, but hopefully the point is clear.
By further example, if you look at the picture of mine that was referenced, note that the kite is flying without the furler, but imagine a line from the tack at the sprit, going up and to the right, and it would intersect at approximately the point where the fore stay meets the mast. Give or take, that line would be about 1/2 way between the furler and the luff in this picture. That's what Judy means. The luff is going to be longer than the torsion line. Too much and it won't roll up clean. Too little and the sail won't fly nicely.
I really like the spinnaker socks. I set and douse my a-sail sometimes with just two on board using the sock. It slows things down when we're racing, but it's just club racing. And a sock jibe is real easy for two people, a walking jibe takes practice with just two.
And I highly recommend a bowsprit, 3 feet beyond the stem is pretty manageable. The long booms and short J's on B&R rigged Hunters w/o backstays, make it a necessity if you're going outside 120. Everybody sweats having the main up against the spreaders, I do it all the time and my 4 year old Quantum main does not have wear patches and does not show any wear or marks or chafe at the spreaders.
The code 3 I had made seems small to me J and I, sailmaker said no. Race last Sunday against a 34 with a deck sweeper, we caught them from behind and won. You can see our tack is out three or four feet from the sprit when we're downwind. The Jeanneau 379 in the video next to us for a while had a code 0 on a furler.
And I highly recommend a bowsprit, 3 feet beyond the stem is pretty manageable. The long booms and short J's on B&R rigged Hunters w/o backstays, make it a necessity if you're going outside 120. Everybody sweats having the main up against the spreaders, I do it all the time and my 4 year old Quantum main does not have wear patches and does not show any wear or marks or chafe at the spreaders.
The code 3 I had made seems small to me J and I, sailmaker said no. Race last Sunday against a 34 with a deck sweeper, we caught them from behind and won. You can see our tack is out three or four feet from the sprit when we're downwind. The Jeanneau 379 in the video next to us for a while had a code 0 on a furler.
Well it is when one of the two is built like your buddy
I would point out that even he was exerting himself when the chute was partially deployed. If you compare that effort with the guys in the video Meriachee posted, that’s one of the benefits of the top down furler.
We were socking and dousing in a hurry, had to get back to the finish line. In this race, winner had to record next four finishers and they were about a minute behind. So, we were rushing everything trying to get around the big Jeanneau and get back to the line.Well it is when one of the two is built like your buddy
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I would point out that even he was exerting himself when the chute was partially deployed. If you compare that effort with the guys in the video Meriachee posted, that’s one of the benefits of the top down furler.
I have never used a top down furler myself though.
I bought a cruising spinnaker for my Beneteau 311, because with my standard 116% jib I needed more power in light wind. I really like it. For those into details, it's cut as an A1.5, which is a reaching sail that will go a little more downwind than an A1, and is a little sturdier than an A1 (see my avatar picture to the left). For the tack, I run a line thru a block on the end of the bow fitting, attached to the tack of course, and back to a cabin top winch. When sailing off the wind, like at 120-135 deg apparent or more, I loosen the tack line as much as a couple feet and let the luff rotate around the forestay so that it comes out behind the main somewhat. With some uncertainty about whether your proposed used sail is a little short, I suggest a similar line so that you can set the tack height at whatever is needed (as long as the sail is not oversized). When heading up to a reach, or above, I tighten the tack line to pull the luff tight to make the sail more genoa-like. In light winds I can sail well above 90 deg apparent.
I don't mess with a snuffer or furler. I find it more trouble than it's worth, although on a bigger boat like yours I might feel differently. I usually handle the spinnaker double or singlehanded. Since my sail is for lighter winds, I have taken the spinnaker down by the time the wind is strong enough to be a problem (so far). To douse the sail, I recommend heading off the wind, say 165 apparent, so that the spinnaker is largely blanketed behind the main. I drop the halyard a foot, then ease the guy/tack line all the way, pull in the lazy sheet, and then pull everything into the companionway as the halyard is eased. I've used this same technique on others' more serious racing boats when sailing into a thunderstorm shorthanded with the spinnaker up (racing and good sense are sometimes not fully compatible for some skippers) and things start letting go.
I apologize if you are familiar with these sail handling details, but I have had good luck with this shorthanded method without a furler or snuffer.
I don't mess with a snuffer or furler. I find it more trouble than it's worth, although on a bigger boat like yours I might feel differently. I usually handle the spinnaker double or singlehanded. Since my sail is for lighter winds, I have taken the spinnaker down by the time the wind is strong enough to be a problem (so far). To douse the sail, I recommend heading off the wind, say 165 apparent, so that the spinnaker is largely blanketed behind the main. I drop the halyard a foot, then ease the guy/tack line all the way, pull in the lazy sheet, and then pull everything into the companionway as the halyard is eased. I've used this same technique on others' more serious racing boats when sailing into a thunderstorm shorthanded with the spinnaker up (racing and good sense are sometimes not fully compatible for some skippers) and things start letting go.
I apologize if you are familiar with these sail handling details, but I have had good luck with this shorthanded method without a furler or snuffer.
@Meriachee what did you use for the pole and mounting for the pole? I am toying with the idea of an extendable pole like yours but also considering a fixed sprit that incorporates an anchor roller.
Yes it looked like he was getting hollered at by the captain to hurry up !
Great video BTW!I guess my point is when you look at the two videos it really highlights the different techniques required for douse and deploy.
Sock is crew on foredeck manhandling the sail, furler is crew in cockpit managing lines.
I assume by the posting on this forum that most cruising is done by a retired couple and racing is done by a crew greater than 2 who are really invested in making the boat go as fast as they can. IMHO a top down furler is a good option for either environment - totally ignoring the cost differential between a sock and furler however
If you check out the newest crop of sailing vessels a lot of them have a top down furler as an option. Just saying
I’ve used, owned and sold furlers and snuffers and asymms. I’ve done all three methods of launching and dousing asymms: by hand only, by snuffer, and by top down furler. In this post, I’m going to focus primarily on how to use a snuffer.
I am a petite woman. You don’t need to be big and strong to use a snuffer, even in 15 knots.
There is NO NEED to manhandle the asymm out near the forestay when dousing with a snuffer, if you use the right technique. And the right technique isn’t complicated. there are Six Easy Steps.
There is one important point to make about an asymm that many new users don’t know:
before dousing you primarily depower the asymm by releasing the tackline and secondarily by easing the working sheet.
Six Easy Steps to dousing with a snuffer.
It’s a variation of the same technique used to launch douse into the companionway turtle bag that @CapitalistSailor described.
Top down furlers have their strengths :
In any event, I highly recommend commend taking a lesson from a very experienced sailor or instructor the first time you set out to sail a spinnaker. A good instructor will not only teach you what to do right, she/he will teach you how to get things back under control quickly of you make a mistake. Then practice, practice,practice,
Mistakes happen, but they don’t have to be melodramatic if you know how to handle them. ...But that’s a whole ‘nuther topic.
I am a petite woman. You don’t need to be big and strong to use a snuffer, even in 15 knots.
There is NO NEED to manhandle the asymm out near the forestay when dousing with a snuffer, if you use the right technique. And the right technique isn’t complicated. there are Six Easy Steps.
There is one important point to make about an asymm that many new users don’t know:
before dousing you primarily depower the asymm by releasing the tackline and secondarily by easing the working sheet.
Six Easy Steps to dousing with a snuffer.
- Head down deeep enough to blanket the asymm behind the mainsail As CapitalistSailor said, that’s somewhere around 165 degrees, but just use your eyes and wait for it to collapse. Then hold that course.
- Depending on your rigging you may need to ease the halyard a bit to keep the kite off the spreaders.
- Release the tackline and the sail will depower completely, and float back from the forestay on the downwind side of the boat.
- Ease the working sheet enough to to allow the clew to be pulled forward of the spreaders
- With the snuffer control lines in hand, Stand on the middle of the foredeck and lower the snuffer. If it’s really and bouncy windy, sit down in the middle of the foredeck.
- Release the spin halyard sail and zigzag fold the snuffed sock onto the into the launch bag. To just stuff it i to the bag and neaten it up before you launch again
It’s a variation of the same technique used to launch douse into the companionway turtle bag that @CapitalistSailor described.
I like top down furlers too, and have sold a lot of them and taught people how to use them.
Top down furlers have their strengths :
- you can deploy and douse without leaving the cockpit. If you have a disability that limits mobility, this is a great benefit.
- they are quick and simple to set up.
- You can aavoid jibing them You can furl them before you jibe, jibe the boat, and then deploy once you are on the new tack. But that’s more work, in my personal opinion, than learning how to jibe the asymm normally, which can easily be done by two people.
- One limitation is that you can’t easily float the tack to make the shape better for sailing deeper. You have to add aa floating tack adjuster gizmo to the anti-torque cable, and rig lines to have an adjustable tackline, If you don’t mind the limitation on sailing angles, it’s okay.
- you need to be more mindful of dousing it before the wind gets too strong. It’s just not as easy to depower a furling asymm instantly, like you can with a snuffer.
- They cost at least twice as much as a snuffer, and that can be a dealbreaker for some folks,
- The asymm must have the right luff length compared to the assembled furler, or else it won’t furl proper. The clew must be about the right height to furl properly. When we build furling asymms to go on a particular furler, we fit the luff length very carefully to match the assembled furler.
In any event, I highly recommend commend taking a lesson from a very experienced sailor or instructor the first time you set out to sail a spinnaker. A good instructor will not only teach you what to do right, she/he will teach you how to get things back under control quickly of you make a mistake. Then practice, practice,practice,
Mistakes happen, but they don’t have to be melodramatic if you know how to handle them. ...But that’s a whole ‘nuther topic.
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The limiting factor was the bow ring. The Selden 3” ring was the anchor point for the design.
The pole is 3” thick wall aluminium. I crafted the ends. There are a number of pages that detail the design and construction on my Wordpress pages,
Meriachee.wordpress.com
Most notably “shiny pole”. Allow me to direct you there, and ask anything you want.
Cheers
Gary
DrJudyB, thank you for the clear explanation and discussion of pros and cons.
I hadn't thought about the impact of the top down furler's torsion line on the ability to let the tack in and out (up and down). I had ruled out these furlers because of cost. I can buy one or two new sails for the cost of a furling system, which seems like a better use of limited funds.
For example, right now I'm mulling over getting a large, light air jib or pseudo Code 0 to complement the asymmetrical, because the largest jib that will fit on a Beneteau 311 is 116%. The sheet is run inside the spreaders, which go to the rail. I'll have to run a larger jib around the spreaders, but I think I can fit a 140% jib on there and use it for close reaching. Changing out the jib underway on a roller furler is kind of a pain, however, although racers do it all the time, and usually with a peel.
I hadn't thought about the impact of the top down furler's torsion line on the ability to let the tack in and out (up and down). I had ruled out these furlers because of cost. I can buy one or two new sails for the cost of a furling system, which seems like a better use of limited funds.
For example, right now I'm mulling over getting a large, light air jib or pseudo Code 0 to complement the asymmetrical, because the largest jib that will fit on a Beneteau 311 is 116%. The sheet is run inside the spreaders, which go to the rail. I'll have to run a larger jib around the spreaders, but I think I can fit a 140% jib on there and use it for close reaching. Changing out the jib underway on a roller furler is kind of a pain, however, although racers do it all the time, and usually with a peel.
If anyone is still here -7 months after the most recent post - I might ask a question:
Is there a formula to determine the optimal length for the sprit to extend beyond the bow? Or, is it gut, or even better ... make it adjustable for the wind??
I have a tack hole on the anchor roller system that is 16" in front of the forestay. That works ... but is it optimal?
Any thoughts and advice appreciated
Is there a formula to determine the optimal length for the sprit to extend beyond the bow? Or, is it gut, or even better ... make it adjustable for the wind??
I have a tack hole on the anchor roller system that is 16" in front of the forestay. That works ... but is it optimal?
Any thoughts and advice appreciated
Thanks for the quick reply. My gennaker halyard is about 16 " above the forestay, and |I have a tack point on the anchor furler precisely 16" out from the forestay at the base. I can build a sprit, but, if the 16" I already have is good, is it worth all the $ and custom metalwork to get another 6"-16".
@Hamish_s if you are racing, then base the length on SPL in your PHRF rating. If you are not racing, you wouldn't notice the difference in performance. The only reason you might go for a longer sprit is to be make it easier to jibe the asym inside (between the tack and the forestay). If you find it too hard to jibe inside you could try it outside but just keep track of the lazy sheet, it could go under the boat if you're not careful.