Hey Guys, Why is teak used almost exclusively and not oak or some other hardwood? Sorry for the multitude of questions, but I'm fairly new to all this.. Thanx
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Tropical hardwoods
Teak, mahogany and other tropical hardwoods come from rainforests and have a great resistance to moisture, partly from a high oil content, plus they are beautiful, easy to work and fairly strong. And historically, they were plentiful, cheap and near cheap labor areas. Oak is strong but harder to work when the grain is not cooperating. It became somewhat scarce in shipbuilding areas thru centuries of use. Plus its hard to identify; white oak is great for salt water, but its almost identical kin - red oak, black oak - have a different internal structure that allows water inside. Thats why red oak is used in flooring inside houses where the appearance is the same but its dry. Oddly, white oak is somewhat vunerable to fresh water, as I found on my dinghy trim. Its now teak. In the archives somewhere there is a link to a list of marine woods and their characteristics. Some typically have straight grain and make good spars, etc. Hope this gets your research started.
Teak, mahogany and other tropical hardwoods come from rainforests and have a great resistance to moisture, partly from a high oil content, plus they are beautiful, easy to work and fairly strong. And historically, they were plentiful, cheap and near cheap labor areas. Oak is strong but harder to work when the grain is not cooperating. It became somewhat scarce in shipbuilding areas thru centuries of use. Plus its hard to identify; white oak is great for salt water, but its almost identical kin - red oak, black oak - have a different internal structure that allows water inside. Thats why red oak is used in flooring inside houses where the appearance is the same but its dry. Oddly, white oak is somewhat vunerable to fresh water, as I found on my dinghy trim. Its now teak. In the archives somewhere there is a link to a list of marine woods and their characteristics. Some typically have straight grain and make good spars, etc. Hope this gets your research started.
good response John
I would only add that teak is easy to maintain because it cleans easily and restores to like-new condition, and is versatile in that it can be oiled, varnished or cetoled. Plus it has a beautiful color that sailors like myself have come to love.
I would only add that teak is easy to maintain because it cleans easily and restores to like-new condition, and is versatile in that it can be oiled, varnished or cetoled. Plus it has a beautiful color that sailors like myself have come to love.
Cedar?
Will red cedar work well? In years past it was used by farmers for fence posts because of resistance to rot. (perhaps also because it is a neusance tree in many areas and has to be cut out anyway) I've got a bunch of it on my land and am considering using it for the boat. Geoff
Will red cedar work well? In years past it was used by farmers for fence posts because of resistance to rot. (perhaps also because it is a neusance tree in many areas and has to be cut out anyway) I've got a bunch of it on my land and am considering using it for the boat. Geoff
Dale, teak has been popular in the marine...
environment because it contains natural oils and resins that resist rot when exposed to moisture, especially left untreated. Cedar heart wood (rare, unlike sap wood), including redwood, also have oils and resins that resist rot, but unlike teak are much softer, structurally weak, do not stain well, and do not stand up to the rigors of marine use. Teak stains well, and has a much richer appearance when treated with oils and finishes. Unfinished teak is very stable to moisture exposure. Unfinished flat grain oak, while exceptionally strong, is somewhat unstable and will contort to its natural state when exposed to moisture unless it is properly fastened. Quarter sawn vertical grain oak has better stability but is also more expensive. Terry
environment because it contains natural oils and resins that resist rot when exposed to moisture, especially left untreated. Cedar heart wood (rare, unlike sap wood), including redwood, also have oils and resins that resist rot, but unlike teak are much softer, structurally weak, do not stain well, and do not stand up to the rigors of marine use. Teak stains well, and has a much richer appearance when treated with oils and finishes. Unfinished teak is very stable to moisture exposure. Unfinished flat grain oak, while exceptionally strong, is somewhat unstable and will contort to its natural state when exposed to moisture unless it is properly fastened. Quarter sawn vertical grain oak has better stability but is also more expensive. Terry
Teak vs not teak
I have never been a fan of teak. It's oily, susceptible to potato-crisp stains, uncooperative in construction and unreliable in dimensions till fully dried. I have also seen so much rotten teak in my life that I would not have had to get involved in restoring two 1977 Cherubini 44s just to see more. It seems to me that, for all its supposed olive-green/baby-poop color and beauty, most people who have and celebrate teak spend an inordinate amount of time taking care of it. And eventually it all goes silver, hard, and open-grained anyway. I am currently replacing all of the teak on my 1974 Hunter 25 with mahogany. I have three varieties, depending on where it's used-- African, Asian, and South American. The African is used for the heavy-duty structural stuff. The Asian is for the sole joists and handrails and hatch slides, and for a lot of stuff down below. The South American is for the pretty stuff like table trim and interior handrails. I also made the top plate for the compression post out of it. The South American (aka 'Honduras') mahogany is about the same strength as Asian (aka 'Philippine' --they are both really misnomers any more) but is prettier and rubs up really red, almost pink, when finished right. Look at Ferenc Mate's books on the Cherubini boats to see that incredibly rich-looking rosy red glow inside Amazing Grace. You do NOT get that glow from any other wood, especially teak. The African mahogany, usually know as ipe ('IPP-ay') is grayer, courser in the grain and does not polish up so well. It is sold in lumber places for decking and because it's much nicer than pressure-treated yellow pine for a number of reasons. Philippine, usually known as lauan, is the workhorse of the trade and is used for everything that has to take paint or finishes well and still be cheap. The veneer plywoods are far nicer for cabinetmaking than plain fir and probably lighter in weight. American woods had begun to become scarce, and Asian products affordable, by the time yachts were being mass-produced in America. And they don't always have good characteristics. Oak is strong but brittle, hard to work with, and vulnerable to rot. The Cherubinis used to steam red oak for the frames of Sea Scamp skiffs; nowadays we would use mahogany for them. You'll never get a bronze screw out of an oak plank again. Red oak is used for the Samson posts of C-44 ketches. With age these rot from the exposed endgrain; they have to be replaced every 27-30 years. All other wood on a C-44 is mahogany or teak. Cedar is good for visible areas because of its sweet color, and it resists rot very well, but it is not strong and is susceptible to splitting and crushing in compression. Use it for your deck in the back yard. Yellow pine works where fit and finish are not a problem, such as the planking of New Jersey speed skiffs and Maine lobster boats. It resists rot very well-- hence its being used for pressure-treated framing lumber-- and it flexes well, but it is not strong, splits, checks and warps, and is NOT suitable to fine woodworking at all. Spruce is more expensive than cedar, structurally resilient, and incredibly strong in compression, hence its use for yacht spars-- and for the compression post in my H25. But for cost reasons you rarely see a boat planked in it. White pine is so susceptible to rot as to make it completely out of the question for traditional boatbuilding; and yet I found a lot of UNTREATED white pine used in the cabinetry of my little first-generation Hunter. I have replaced all of it-- and the funny thing is, I used white pine over again. Seems that, when properly dried, its porous nature makes it EXCELLENT for epoxy saturation. Those cleats and drawer slides will never see water intrusion again! The only thing now teak in my boat is bonded to the inside of the aft end of the cabin, mainly because the piece of plywood was available and left raw it looks good against varnished mahogany. But you can bet the back of it is laminated mahogany and saturated silly. For nonstructural things like trim and interior shelving, make your own choice. I just found all the teak on my older boat to be in very poor condition-- primarily due to the nature of the wood selected for those parts-- and chose to change it over to something I could stand looking at and would consider it a pleasure to take care of. JC 2
I have never been a fan of teak. It's oily, susceptible to potato-crisp stains, uncooperative in construction and unreliable in dimensions till fully dried. I have also seen so much rotten teak in my life that I would not have had to get involved in restoring two 1977 Cherubini 44s just to see more. It seems to me that, for all its supposed olive-green/baby-poop color and beauty, most people who have and celebrate teak spend an inordinate amount of time taking care of it. And eventually it all goes silver, hard, and open-grained anyway. I am currently replacing all of the teak on my 1974 Hunter 25 with mahogany. I have three varieties, depending on where it's used-- African, Asian, and South American. The African is used for the heavy-duty structural stuff. The Asian is for the sole joists and handrails and hatch slides, and for a lot of stuff down below. The South American is for the pretty stuff like table trim and interior handrails. I also made the top plate for the compression post out of it. The South American (aka 'Honduras') mahogany is about the same strength as Asian (aka 'Philippine' --they are both really misnomers any more) but is prettier and rubs up really red, almost pink, when finished right. Look at Ferenc Mate's books on the Cherubini boats to see that incredibly rich-looking rosy red glow inside Amazing Grace. You do NOT get that glow from any other wood, especially teak. The African mahogany, usually know as ipe ('IPP-ay') is grayer, courser in the grain and does not polish up so well. It is sold in lumber places for decking and because it's much nicer than pressure-treated yellow pine for a number of reasons. Philippine, usually known as lauan, is the workhorse of the trade and is used for everything that has to take paint or finishes well and still be cheap. The veneer plywoods are far nicer for cabinetmaking than plain fir and probably lighter in weight. American woods had begun to become scarce, and Asian products affordable, by the time yachts were being mass-produced in America. And they don't always have good characteristics. Oak is strong but brittle, hard to work with, and vulnerable to rot. The Cherubinis used to steam red oak for the frames of Sea Scamp skiffs; nowadays we would use mahogany for them. You'll never get a bronze screw out of an oak plank again. Red oak is used for the Samson posts of C-44 ketches. With age these rot from the exposed endgrain; they have to be replaced every 27-30 years. All other wood on a C-44 is mahogany or teak. Cedar is good for visible areas because of its sweet color, and it resists rot very well, but it is not strong and is susceptible to splitting and crushing in compression. Use it for your deck in the back yard. Yellow pine works where fit and finish are not a problem, such as the planking of New Jersey speed skiffs and Maine lobster boats. It resists rot very well-- hence its being used for pressure-treated framing lumber-- and it flexes well, but it is not strong, splits, checks and warps, and is NOT suitable to fine woodworking at all. Spruce is more expensive than cedar, structurally resilient, and incredibly strong in compression, hence its use for yacht spars-- and for the compression post in my H25. But for cost reasons you rarely see a boat planked in it. White pine is so susceptible to rot as to make it completely out of the question for traditional boatbuilding; and yet I found a lot of UNTREATED white pine used in the cabinetry of my little first-generation Hunter. I have replaced all of it-- and the funny thing is, I used white pine over again. Seems that, when properly dried, its porous nature makes it EXCELLENT for epoxy saturation. Those cleats and drawer slides will never see water intrusion again! The only thing now teak in my boat is bonded to the inside of the aft end of the cabin, mainly because the piece of plywood was available and left raw it looks good against varnished mahogany. But you can bet the back of it is laminated mahogany and saturated silly. For nonstructural things like trim and interior shelving, make your own choice. I just found all the teak on my older boat to be in very poor condition-- primarily due to the nature of the wood selected for those parts-- and chose to change it over to something I could stand looking at and would consider it a pleasure to take care of. JC 2
Teak Replacement
Nice reply JC, Ipe (ee-pay) has been called by a lot of names, yours is the first mention of "African Mahogany" I've heard. It is much heavier than teak and varies widely in color. I decided to use it for replacement because of cost and to try something new. Check the picture. These two rails came from the same board! unlike other woods the sapwood seems to be hard and stable. There is a great article on teak in the new "Good Old Boat"
Nice reply JC, Ipe (ee-pay) has been called by a lot of names, yours is the first mention of "African Mahogany" I've heard. It is much heavier than teak and varies widely in color. I decided to use it for replacement because of cost and to try something new. Check the picture. These two rails came from the same board! unlike other woods the sapwood seems to be hard and stable. There is a great article on teak in the new "Good Old Boat"
JC, another advantage of the internet,
guys like me can save stuff like the lifetime of knowledge you just posted by just cutting and pasting. And I just did. Thanks so much.
guys like me can save stuff like the lifetime of knowledge you just posted by just cutting and pasting. And I just did. Thanks so much.
Dale, as an added note I try to avoid...
using teak on the exterior of the boat because of the effort needed in keeping up its original color and look. Below decks I really like the looks of oiled teak that Hunter uses in their boats. It has a richness that few woods can compare and is easy to maintain. You can use just about any wood below decks as long as you understand its characteristics in an application. Mr. Cherubini has some very good tips relative to certain woods. Terry
using teak on the exterior of the boat because of the effort needed in keeping up its original color and look. Below decks I really like the looks of oiled teak that Hunter uses in their boats. It has a richness that few woods can compare and is easy to maintain. You can use just about any wood below decks as long as you understand its characteristics in an application. Mr. Cherubini has some very good tips relative to certain woods. Terry
Teak
I agree with the many listed attributes of teak, however, some boat builders are doing away with teak in favor of stainless steel...which, of course, requires NO maintenance. Catalina for one.
I agree with the many listed attributes of teak, however, some boat builders are doing away with teak in favor of stainless steel...which, of course, requires NO maintenance. Catalina for one.
Mahogany might be the ticket..
Thanx a bunch... to tell you the truth, I don't really like the look of teak. I wanted to redo my interior and alot of the deck components. From what I've seen so far, most owners after a couple of years just let the teak on their boats slide and it looks bad. I wanted to try something that had a great look but wouldn't go grey or silver if I didn't refinish it every year. I guess I want a wood that would be very salt water resistant (as much as possible for wood) and to look good. Again, thanx..
Thanx a bunch... to tell you the truth, I don't really like the look of teak. I wanted to redo my interior and alot of the deck components. From what I've seen so far, most owners after a couple of years just let the teak on their boats slide and it looks bad. I wanted to try something that had a great look but wouldn't go grey or silver if I didn't refinish it every year. I guess I want a wood that would be very salt water resistant (as much as possible for wood) and to look good. Again, thanx..
Dale, mahogany, like teak, will lose its...
natural color if you plan to use it for unfinished exterior boat components. A better choice would be SS, as mentioned in a previous reply. IMHO teak is going to be a more durable and lasting wood than mahogany when used in marine applications. Terry
natural color if you plan to use it for unfinished exterior boat components. A better choice would be SS, as mentioned in a previous reply. IMHO teak is going to be a more durable and lasting wood than mahogany when used in marine applications. Terry
Wet Wood
Great points of view! I am not a fine woodworker, but I cross paths with a few who are, Here are my impressions: White oak is much more resistant to rot than red oak. IPE has one commandment:Thou shalt seal the endgrain, or thou shalt suffer splitting, inside or out. I have done some work with teak(weather facing compound curves) ,great PIA,and I hope JBII is exaggerating his dislike of teak. Any insight appreciated. Jim
Great points of view! I am not a fine woodworker, but I cross paths with a few who are, Here are my impressions: White oak is much more resistant to rot than red oak. IPE has one commandment:Thou shalt seal the endgrain, or thou shalt suffer splitting, inside or out. I have done some work with teak(weather facing compound curves) ,great PIA,and I hope JBII is exaggerating his dislike of teak. Any insight appreciated. Jim
Steamed
Near Annapolis there is a beautiful little schooner named Denise that the owner built himself years ago. She is all wood, fastened with treenails, and built with Coast Guard inspections in progress as she was meant to do charters from the start. Now the owner is advanced in years and has her for sale; he pulled her out recently for his usual meticulous maintenance. The one plank that had deteriorated in the whole boat was the one plank in the whole boat that had been steam bent. It was steamed because the curve was sharp and he was afraid it would not make it otherwise. Coincidence? Anyway, I don't think I want a stainless steel bulkhead. Mahogany gets my vote for the best all-purpose common marine wood. I love the way teak cleans up and endures so much abuse. White oak protected England for centuries and was revered by Druids. You could do like the Dickerson yachts did, go countersnob and just paint it. Enjoy your choices.
Near Annapolis there is a beautiful little schooner named Denise that the owner built himself years ago. She is all wood, fastened with treenails, and built with Coast Guard inspections in progress as she was meant to do charters from the start. Now the owner is advanced in years and has her for sale; he pulled her out recently for his usual meticulous maintenance. The one plank that had deteriorated in the whole boat was the one plank in the whole boat that had been steam bent. It was steamed because the curve was sharp and he was afraid it would not make it otherwise. Coincidence? Anyway, I don't think I want a stainless steel bulkhead. Mahogany gets my vote for the best all-purpose common marine wood. I love the way teak cleans up and endures so much abuse. White oak protected England for centuries and was revered by Druids. You could do like the Dickerson yachts did, go countersnob and just paint it. Enjoy your choices.
Composit vs Teak
In a recent Lat & Att magizine there was an artical on the new Hunter 38. They noted Hunter was using a composit instead of teak in the cockpit. Very good rich look, no maintanence. Has anyone seen this or similar material?
In a recent Lat & Att magizine there was an artical on the new Hunter 38. They noted Hunter was using a composit instead of teak in the cockpit. Very good rich look, no maintanence. Has anyone seen this or similar material?
And then there's......
Some American woods, because they grow in wet conditions, are also moisture resistant. Locust heartwood, either blank or honey, is the best example. It looks like oak, though if anything its a bit harder. The sapwood is yellow and pretty boring. Larch, aka Tamarack, is worthy of a try. And a fellow woodworker said cherry was similarly water resistant.
Some American woods, because they grow in wet conditions, are also moisture resistant. Locust heartwood, either blank or honey, is the best example. It looks like oak, though if anything its a bit harder. The sapwood is yellow and pretty boring. Larch, aka Tamarack, is worthy of a try. And a fellow woodworker said cherry was similarly water resistant.
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