Why So Many Critics

[John Nantz]

Serenity -

Can you order "improvements" in these areas? No you can't. Hunter is a production boat and they buy everything in large quantities for the best discount and that is one reason that explains why they can be sold for less. Another reason is they are engineered and built using computers where ever possible. For example, the glass patterns that go into the lay-up are cut out with a computer.It maybe like comparing a hand built car vs. an assembly line built auto. Say, you want to drive across the country, would you buy a Hummer because it might be safer than, say, a Ford or Chevy? I've driven for many years and never had an accident but for someone who hasn't been driving very long would you recommend the Hummer? Could you retrofit the Ford or Chevy to make it safer - like installing roll bars? The point is, cost, for most people, is a factor. If one wants to cross oceans and isn't sure they can handle it then maybe a more bullet-proof design would be appropriate. For the rest of us, though, we'll learn the skills of sailing and trip-plan to minimize problems and probably go with something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to buy. What ever you get you can probably plan on dumping tens of thousands more to get it properly set up for cruising. Buy and "experienced" boat with all the gear on her and maybe save a few bucks and time.Realize that all kinds of vessels have gone across oceans - everything from a surfboard(s) to little tiny things only a dozen feet long. So the questions is what do YOU need? What is your comfort zone? VERY IMPORTANT: Realize that a heck of a lot depends on you as the skipper. What are your "street smarts" when it comes to sailing? How able are you to cope when things are different than they should be? There is no cookbook on how to sail across oceans so you have to take everything you know and integrate it to fit the situation.Not long ago I saw a picture of a flat-bottom, centerboard, Bristol Bay fishing boat built in the 1930s, that was in Australia (they sailed there via Baja - the old Bristol Bay fishing boats were sailboats). This was not a thing of beauty and it was only a little over 30 feet long. Since your folks have a boat I'm frankly a little surprised at the questions but probably, I guess, you haven't been out on her that much. Taking sailing lessons is really good (something that many who ask this question haven't done) but maybe the next step is to volunteer to crew, either on race boats at Shilshole or by putting notices on the various bulletin boards (West Marine, Shilshole, etc.). Also, maybe even helping with boat yard work? There is a lot of that going on right now.If you can afford a Tartan or other expensive boat, why not sign up with John Neal for a training cruise? www.mahina.com, 360-378-6131. He sailed to the South Pacific in a small 20-something boat and wrote a book about it. I'm pretty sure he also wrote what he did to outfit it and the changes he made. He also has a consultation service with regard to boat selection at http://www.mahina.com/consult.html I'm sure it isn't free but if one has the money, hey, go for it.Guess I've wasted too much time on this... gota go. Oh, regard if Hunter or any other production boat did anything less than Tartan, Hallberg-Rassy, Nauticat, etc., yes, they probably did, but the question is, is this something that is significant for your purpose and is that something significant enough that you will pay the difference?Here are some current boats for sale in your local 48 North magazine:39' H-R, 2000, $365,00039' Nauticat, 1998, $294,00038' Sabre 386, 2004, $289,00039' Malo, 2002, $395,00037' Hunter 376, 1996, $99,500There were no Hunters in the length and year range of the others so the 376 was as close as I could get. For info, the Nauticat was owned by a guy who can't go sailing anymore. Another question might be if you want to work your whole life to be able to afford one of these boats and then not be able to finally sail off into the sunset? It's a decision only you can make. And something to keep in mind, some say lifes memories is more about what you didn't do than what you did.Hope this gives you some ideas.

 

[newly anonymous]

economy of scale

There's clearly an economy of scale going on with both Hunter and Catalina. Equally clear is that this doesn't answer all the questions as to why they've become so popular. It would be an interesting study to determine why they flourish in a market where other boat makers such as Erikson, Cal, Morgan, et cetera--all of whom also cut corners--did not.Hunter seems to do better with first-time boat buyers, and Catalina seems to do better with folks who grew up sailing. The trade off here seems to be innovation vrs tradition. Beyond that, it seems that Hunter does really well designing a boat upon which women feel comfy. Combine the big cockpit for entertaining with the HUGE galley layouts and the light, open interiors, and you've got a boat that's going to be purchased by sailing couples.I did not originally want a Hunter, but the admiral fell in love with it the first time I took her to a boat show. This afternoon, that same wife invited our nephew and his new girlfriend out for a sail, and we went out for several hours despite 27 knot winds and an ebb chop that would have shaken the fillings out of someone sailing a lesser boat. And guess what: the admiral was happy as a clam, especially when we dropped the hook and she was able to serve this new salmon/caper thing she bakes.I pretty much had the South Bay to myself this afternoon. A zillion pals of mine, many of whom have boats that guys like Daryl call "bluewater boats," stayed home today, and many of these poor sods can't coax their wives aboard in anything less than perfect conditions. You'll notice these guys in the beer can races; they're the ones with the all-male crews. But they have the nicest boats....Although Hunter cuts corners wherever they can find a corner worth cutting, they'll never compromise the integrity of the hull or rig. The hull on my current Hunter is carbon-reinforced, and after 10,000 nm sailing a Hunter I can honestly say that I've never once heard one oil-can. I've experienced oil-canning on a Morgan, an Erickson, a Tayana and, yes, an Oyster, but never once on a Hunter.Clearly, not every Hunter is born equal. My H46LE has such better manners than my H410 did it's hard to believe the two boats are related. The only way to tell if a specific Hunter is right for your needs is to take her out and sail her. And yet, I have to tell you, that 410 stood up to some remarkable gales out in the open ocean without ever a shudder.I grow weary of this thread, just as I've grown weary of boat snobs. The bottom line why I own a Hunter is that I'm an educator, and in this society people like me don't make a whole lot of money. Despite eight years of grad school and a dozen years of experience, I can't afford a Tartan. So I purchased the best boat I could afford, an H46LE, and she stood up to some nasty chop this afternoon.

 

[Ed Schenck]

That IS Manatee John.

Sandy and Jeff are safely back in Florida having made the crossing on Friday. Somehow that Hunter was able to survive the Gulf stream. And without Daryl's help! They will begin the trek north after a couple more weeks in Florida. Hopefully it will hold together until they get back to Huron.

 

[serenity4u2]

Thanks John

John, really glad you had a great sailing today. You did help me a great deal so far about looking at boats. Its been said "people perish for a lack of knowledge". I certainly do not wish to perish at sea. So thanks for the knowledge. I have also heard it said that Wisdome is actually applying knowledge. So thanks for helping me in this process. Your right about the Admiral having final say..lol... Unless of course your talking to a light house keeper...lol.... Yes, I really like the affordability... I have went to cruising world dot com and watched the hunter advertisement. Worth taking a look at.. Like Hunter says less expensive does not mean less quality.. I watched the factory tour on line at this site. I certainly understand enough about economics to know that buying power can keep cost down as well as how a boat is processed. I also learned the (hunters philosophy of the B&R rig) at that same site. As far as those boats costing more money.. I'd be in the used market, which can actually end up costing me more money in the long run. John, You said your hull was reinforced with something.. something different then hunter claims.. Hunter states the hull is reinforced with Kevlar? What is different with yours and how di that occur?John, also you mentioned earlier about having a large aft cocpit? I asked you if that would be preferable to a CC.. Just wanting your opinion? Since Hunter has both a 45DS and 45CC... Thanks My Friend..

 

[serenity4u2]

John in WA State.

Hello Neighbor and thank you very much for your input. When I started this forum John, I mentioned I am selling my Home to be a LA and mostly coastal sailing. Was wondering about some of the Hunter critics out there. I have received much very valuable feed back. Yours included. First, did you visit the seattle boat show last monoth? Pretty awesome and as I mentioned earlier it is so confusing (number of boats and thier marketing claims). John, first I am no where ready to skipper a boat on a long off shore voyage. (lack of skill) my friend.. My sailing experience is very limited. Limited to sailing in the protected waters of Long Isl Sound as kid.. Later Through the Navy Saling Association chartering boates in San Francisco Bay as well as San Diego.I will look up that person and website you provided John.. Thanks... As of now, I am going through the San Juan Sailing program in Bellingham. Taking as many classes as possible. I do sail on my familys hunter 33.. Its three years old and a great boat. Still my only big adventure outside of the puegent sound has been crewing in the san juans.. The boat is a great boat and serves my familys needs. Its not a live aboard but a second home. It is also great because of its ease of sailing (single handed. Since it is primarily used by aging parents. In fact I have over nighted in poulsbo... Nice place. Thanks for ALL the Input John.. Hope to see you out sailing sometime. Think thier is an annual hunter gathering up here in the PNW... Much Thanks...

 

[Bryce22345]

my 410

all I can add is that my H410 went thru two consecutive near knock downs in a 75 and 82 knot gust in a squall a few years ago. she handled it far better than the captain and admiral did. I'd take her pretty much anywhere.Bryce

 

[blockboy]

What is Oil Canning a boat?

Does that mean flexing or something else?

 

[Fred Ficarra7897]

Yep, flexing.

It happens when the hull is thin and has no backup from a support beam. It's almost never a problem.

 

[Terry Cox]

Hi Serenity, I take some exception to those ...

comments regarding the inability to make Hunter improvements thus making her more sea worthy. Depending on the model, there are many things you can do to prepare any boat for passage making. Many P42s have and are sailing across oceans. It is a strong, fast and sea worthy boat. I would not hesitate heading off shore with her, but there are some improvements I would make to improve her passage making abilities. A few of these follow: o steering vaneo redesign shrouds and stays o Berth lee clotho SS through hull backing platesAny boat will need some modifications to prepare it for passage making and these can be done to the extent the skipper deems necessary, e.g., adding or strengthening stringers, upgrading rigging, expanding storage lockers. Terry

 

[newly anonymous]

aft cockpit vrs center cockpit

Ok, now there's a question that I think merits some reflection in the passagemaker vrs gunkholer debate.Advantage of center-cockpit designs: A huge aft cabin. Usually with centerline berth and en-suite head.Disadvantage of center-cockpit design: (1) The galley is usually in a hallway; (2) The helm is closer to the splashy part of the boat; (3) higher center of gravity, which results in a more tender boat.Advantage of aft-cockpit design: (1) better performance; (2) better aesthetics; (3) drier sailing.Disadvantage of aft-cockpit design: you have to enter the aft berth(s) on your knees.That said, the larger the boat, the less a center cockpit is a disadvantage. In my opinion, once you get above 50 feet, the advantage of aft-cockpit design begins to dissipate. Of course, this question has no bearing on the discourse about Hunter bashing. They make both. The H450 is the same hull as the H460; the former is the center-cockpit version, the later is the aft-cockpit version. Same with the 420 vrs 410, et cetera.In my opinion, center-cockpit boats are so freaking ugly it's not worth discussing their poor sailing characteristics. That said, I'd never, never, never engage in center-cockpit bashing, because I'm just not a boat snob. You want one, buy one. You wanna sail it across the ocean? Adios.Speaking of "adios," I'll be spending Spring Break in the Sea of Cortez, so I'm gonna be jumping off this web for the rest of the month. See ya in April!

 

[serenity4u2]

Nice Link John

Thanks for the link John.. Guess even having a pilot house has some disadvantages..lol... As far as keeping you dry... I'm thinking thats only if you keep the water out... laughing. Yes, I have heard that criticism about pan liners and hard to check for damage.. Not really sure how big a deal that would be. I also noticed how other boats are copying hunter innovations.. Some are trying thier own form of an arch. Even noticed the J boats are using fractional rigging. That was the biggest criticism I received.. NO BACK STAY.. I hope you were able to check out the "cruising world" website. The marine hunter link thier explains the Arch and also the B&R rig.. I have a health back ground.. Not a physics one.. so I watched the vidios at that site and it makes sence to me... I will be posting something I found about fractional rigs.. It is interesting... Lots of sailboats at Seattle this year.. Like yourself I speant time with my dad talking to various reps and getting info. I did check out that site you gave earlier about that person up here in WA that takes people on off sure voyages.. I am not up for that at present. I did find his website very informative. I mentioned before That I have been updating my sailing skills at San Juan Sailing School in bellingham. They also have a charter fleet and a brokerage as well. My Admiral who loves the space and price of the Hunters has her eye on another boat. You can check thier site and see the boats in thier charter fleet. The boat is a small catamaran.. They have two. Very spacious and made in USA like hunters and also affordable. Plus they have full enclosures increasing livability. They are called Gemini 105's... So I am also picking thier brains as well as visiting the makers website. I might be able to afford keeping a small home and having a boat for all year round usage. Anyhow John, check out that cruising world website and thier link to hunters. It is real informative as to How hunters are made, keeping cost low and also about the ARCH, B&R Rig... Enjoy and Thanks for all your input..

 

[serenity4u2]

John...Info on Fractional rigs

John, this is some thing I stumbled on regarding fractional rigs vs masthead rigs... found it interesting..Fractional Rig Offers Advantages Over Masthead RigIn my sailing experience I have learned to prefer a fractional rig to a masthead version, whether cruising, racing or daysailing. Here are some of the reasons why I believe that more people should be sailing boats with fractional rigs:Fractional headsails are smaller and easier to use. A large 140-150% masthead genoa is a terrible sail for a cruiser. It is a pain to tack, requires a lot more winch grinding, reduces forward visibility, and takes either larger winches or more muscle to trim. As the wind picks up it soon overpowers the boat, requiring either a sail change or partial furling of the sail. A large genoa has an inefficient shape when partially furled (reefed). The larger the sail, the more it has to be reefed in a breeze, and the worse the shape becomes. To make matters worse, as you reef the genoa, you end up raising the center of effort of the sail, giving excess healing moment for the amount of sail actually exposed to the wind. Very inefficient! On the other hand, the fractional headsail is smaller to begin with and, as the breeze picks up, the mainsail can be reefed, an easier operation which results in a better sail shape. When it is necessary to reef the fractional genoa, it can be rolled up less which means shape is still decent. Fractional rigs require fewer sails: since the power of the frac rig is in the main, the headsails are smaller and you don't need as many for racing. If you end up with the wrong headsail up on a frac rig, it is not as detrimental as it is on a masthead rig. The total number of sails on a fractional-rigged boat is usually less than on a masthead. Fractional spinnakers are smaller and easier to handle: the biggest beast on most boats - the one that is hardest to handle - is the spinnaker. On a frac rig, the sail is smaller and the pole is shorter, and the spinnaker therefore is easier to set, douse and gybe. If it gets out of control, which eventually happens to all of us, it is less of a handful. A frac rig boat can sail on mainsail alone: there are times when one would prefer to sail with one sail up, for a variety of reasons. On a masthead rig boat, sailing under main alone is so inefficient as to be almost worthless, especially upwind. So what most masthead-ers do is sail with jib alone, especially when it is blowing. It drives me crazy to see this: without the wind pressure on the mainsail, the mast is not steadied and all the load on the spar is strictly in compression. If the mast gets out of column (bends too much) while you are plowing through waves you can end up with the rig in your lap. Not much fun! The frac rig, on the other hand, is easily sailed under main alone. In addition, the masthead rig becomes unbalanced when you sail with only one sail up, as you will develop too much weather or lee helm as the sail area is not centered over the keel. On the frac rig the mast is far enough forward so as to provide better balance of sail area over keel, for an easier helm. If you do use the jib alone on a frac rig it is small and easily handled and the pull on the mast is not strictly in compression, so it is safer. The frac rig spar is farther forward in the boat, meaning that its' position relative to the logical location of the forward main cabin bulkhead is better, with the result that it is less intrusive in the cabin. The frac rig spar is taller and reaches cleaner air higher off the water. It also gives a more nicely proportioned rig for aesthetic reasons. The frac rig mast is more easily bent, producing more sail shape control. The loads on the frac rig spar are generally less, as the compression load generated by the headsails is less. The backstay on a masthead race boat is often tensioned to the point that it puts terrific loads on the whole rig, causing flexing of the boat and associated problems. The frac rig backstay is never tightened to the same high loads, which is easier on the structure. I think frac rigs are more fun to sail. The mainsail is more fun to trim, you have more shape control, yet the headsails are a lot easier to use. If something goes wrong on a frac rig it is usually easier to control. If you are caught in a blow, or your furler jams, or your headsail starts to go over the side, the smaller headsail on a frac rig causes less of a fire drill than the larger masthead genoa will cause. The most hazardous place to be on a boat when trouble hits is up on the bow, especially when short or single-handed. So any reduction in the frequency or magnitude of a problem up forward is a good thing. On the other hand, the mainsail is more centered over the boat, and a problem with it is usually easier to get under control. So why are so many cruising boat built today with masthead rigs? For one reason they are simple and cheap. The mast is usually just a straight un-tapered extrusion. For another reason, builders seem to be reluctant to change, a problem in our industry that has stifled growth and innovation. The masthead rig is largely an anachronism left over from days when the racing rules gave favored treatment to boats with masthead rigs. This is no longer the case, but cruising boat design was adversely influenced for years by handicap rules, even though most boats never see the starting line. Fortunately, the situation is starting to change. I applaud Hunter for the use of the frac rig on their boats, and from much personal use i can say that their rigs are just plain easier and better for cruising. J/boats also uses mostly frac rigs, and they are known for making boats where sailing performance (speed, ease of use, efficiency and fun) is paramount. The Beneteau First series boats, also performance oriented, are frac rigs. If more people would try the frac rig they would find that it is indeed a step forward in convenience, performance and safety.

 

[serenity4u2]

John Farnsworth

Hey John, Thanks for the feedback about CC vs Aft.. Be safe on your spring break and look forward to hearing from you when you get back...

 

[Terry Cox]

Mr. Farnsworth, perhaps you can provide more basis...

for your opinion about the freakish appearance, slower sailing characteristics and other inadequacies of a center cockpit designed boat. I have found after sailing our Hunter P42 for several years and thousands of miles these basis have little to no merit. Our boat is far from being considered tender, no hallway galley here, as fast or faster than comparable aft cockpit designs and unmatched in aesthetic appeal (compliments from other skippers). We're all entitled to our opinions and of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so before you discard this boat model to some mental trash heap perhaps it would be worthwhile to let Serenity (whoever he is) check one out.Terry

 

[serenity4u2]

Terry... Johns away...

Hey Terry, Great to hear from another sailor up here in the PNW. If you read all the posts I think you will see John was not really bashing CC and admits to his own bias. I only asked that question based on an earlier post he made, since Hunters make both CC and AFT in the 45 foot range. Have to admit the CC really appeals to the Admiral because of that spacious owners cabin. I watched the H 45CC boat review from lattiudes and attitudes... You can see the boat review on video at that site. I hust made this post Terry since John has been helpful to me and was answering my question (one he raised).. Plus I know he is away and will not be back untill next month.. Thnaks Terry... & Happy sailing up here in the PNW..

 

[Terry Cox]

Hi Serenity, thanks for the update...

It is always more helpful to know a person's name to whom we speak.We've been sailing PNW waters since 1999 on our first boat an H28. Since we purchased our current boat in 2002 we've completed three extended cruises to northern waters. In 2004 it was Desolation Sound (six weeks), Discovery Islands in 2005 (seven weeks) and Broughton Islands in 2006 (eight weeks). This season we plan on another two month cruise, this time to Ocean Falls, BC, CA. In between our extended cruises we've been all over the San Juan and Gulf Islands many times. Cypress Island (Pelican Beach) is among our favorite stopping places. We prefer to anchor out and enjoy the serenity (no pun intended). Plus we cruise year around; so much solitude during the winter.My point is, if you have questions, need advice, sailing tips, just let me know and I would be happy to give you a helping hand. The only class I took was Boating Safely by the Power Squadron folks. The rest was book study and applications as well as the crew that visit this site.Terry

 

[serenity4u2]

Thanks Terry

Terry, Thank you for your post. I really appreciate you offering your advise when needed. It really sounds like you have much sailing experience and I am a little envious as well as excited for my own future endevors. I will be sailing with my parents on thier new hunter 33 in BC this august. Not to mention other short trips.. You mentioned "first name"... No serenity is not it (no pun intended) That is something I achieve on the water as I cast away the cares of the land. Years ago in my military service I became a "functional" drunk, which is to say I was dysfunctional just not in the gutter. The first boat I sailed with sober friends was named "SEA-RENE". That is minus the hyphin.. So thats why I go by serenity.. or serenity 4U2... My actual name is Michael. Again Terry, thanks for your input... Safe sailing my friend.. Michael aka serenity4u2

 

[Terry Cox, Belle-Vie, P42]

Hi Michael, I hope to see you on the water...

sometime. Matia Island, on the north side of Orcas, is another favorite place of mine. A nice day sail from Bellingham.Terry