Why should we care about pumping out...

zeehag · Sep 7, 2011

san diego offers free pump-outs, yet blames boaters for raw sewage dumps of 250,000-410,000 gallons and more by the coronado, ca faulty sewage culverts that were built in gawdonlyklnows when bc, and sends raw stuff out regularly. go figger.

but that dont make it right, now, does it.....

RichH · Sep 7, 2011

Thats not a problem because 'cities' have sovereign immunity against such 'regulations'. Since boaters have no such sovereign immunity ... YOU are the low hanging fruit target prey species.

You should have traveled the East River in NYC a few days after Irene ... or traveled out the Verazanno Narrows from New York harbor .... Phew! The stink was so bad it made your eyes water.

Don S/V ILLusion · Sep 7, 2011

Municipalities have no such immunity. Each must comply with effluent limitations proscribed by the dreaded EPA which recognizes the economic impracticability of pristine effluents. Would you rather pay 100 times your present property tax amount annually for the foreseeable future along with everyne else in your city/town/county to pay for the elimination of the combined sewer overflow? If no, you have the answer why these things exist.

If that rationale isn't doing it for you, consider this: Boaters tend to congregate in pristine areas for obvious reasons. Should unrestricted sewage discharges from boats be allowed there simply because municipal areas are contaminated?

Stu Jackson · Sep 7, 2011

2 wrongs don't make a right.

zeehag · Sep 7, 2011

i remember sailing the huidson river from catskill creek north and south--i was young-- i also sat on the bow occasionally , with my feet in the water-- had to raise my feets for the turdies floating by. when i went to colege in troy, ny, right on the hudson, we gauged when to drink the water by the smell of the river.--if it stank-- not drinking today.
i have been advised the river is cleaner than it was. if the east river is only occasionally stinky, then the place has shaped up a tad. used to always smell.
these days there are not too many places s till prehistoric, as those were. only exception i have found in a so called civilized city is san diego with the raw sewage into the bay problems occurring in coronado.
but there are free pump out docks..... but is the ultra rich (cough cough ) large houses in coronado that still have culverts to the sea and bay. go figger.

shemandr · Sep 7, 2011

No, boaters should not dump their waste into anchorages where the in/out flushing doesn't clear the waste. We should not dump in coastal water - specifically, in my case, the Peconic Bay estuary.
But, it would be nice if the s**t we pump out of our tanks, by pump out facilites, wasn't shortly dumped back into our waters by the municipalites who profess to take care of our waters.
Sewage overflow is a problem. So is road runoff - maybe a bigger one. The water quality of our bays is deteriorating. I think its much more due to septic systems, road runoff and occasional sewage overflow, than boats pumping out. But, we should not do it.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Sep 7, 2011

The BEST solution:

Onboard treatment. But draconian laws and well intentioned, but misinformed and misguided environmental extremists have made the future of onboard treatment too uncertain for equipment mfrs to risk investing in the R&D necessary to develop treatment devices that are affordable--money AND power needs--to the majority of boaters.

Polliticans are fond of talking about how beneficial some new "no discharge" law will be to the environment, totally oblivious--or (more likely) deliberately ignoring--the fact that ALL vessels with toilets are already required to hold or treat by laws that have been on the books for 30+ years. So the only vessels new no discharge laws impact are the <5% that have installed, or would install treatment devices...the other 95% should already be using tanks! If they can't enforce a 30 yrs old law that requires 95% of boats to hold, do they REALLY think that they can do any better job of enforcing a new law that adds 5% more boats?

More tanks are illegally dumped than are ever pumped out. The only difference between those boats and the sewage treatment plants who dump more sewage than they treat is, it's legal for the treatment plants to do it.

Don S/V ILLusion · Sep 7, 2011

No discharge zones address those 95% of boats which have holding tanks. That's the whole point!

Also, what's the basis for saying "sewage treatment plants ... dump more sewage than they treat"?

seadaddler · Sep 7, 2011

Funny

I think NY has more laws than any other state,they did and are doing a good job cleaning up the Peconic Bay like the Riverhead treatment plant and adding a lot of new free pumpout boats,I think its great what they are doing but its a up hill battle with the runoff of roads and fert from laws on LI.
They have the same problem with runoff and beach closing in Florida but disappointed they don't seem to have many free pumpout boats around.
We all have to do what ever we can to help save our waters from being destroyed down the tiolet.
Nick

tommays · Sep 7, 2011

I have no problem with it BUT the Northport pumpout boats (the one of two servicing 700 boats ) will be out of service for the season in about two weeks and for sure NOT running in October leaving ONE sometimes working pumpout station in Huntington harbor for several thousand boats

While i have no ability to pump my Sealand tank overboard i will have to pump it out this week and resort to carrying home a 5 gallon bucket

Clearly the capacity is not there in are area to service the boats and the Northport Scudder avenue sewer plant were are pump out goes is currently getting raked over the coals by the EPA in every way you could thing of

The EPA mandated that Northport Village take the necessary steps over the next six months to come into compliance with the Clean Water Act. According to the agency’s report, dated July 25, the village has been given until Sept. 30 to develop, implement and enforce a Stormwater Management Program and until Nov. 30 to create and enforce a plan to fix the non-stormwater discharges into the harbor. The village also must create a written procedure for eliminating illicit discharges and conduct an audit of its municipal operations to determine sources of pollutants. A copy of the report must be submitted to the EPA and the Department of Environmental Conservation by Jan. 31, 2012.

NotCook · Sep 8, 2011

Let's get the order of magnitude properly set. Here is one example: "a report released by Environment Ohio reveals that more than ten billion gallons of sewage contaminated Lake Erie and waterways in the Lake Erie watershed basin from January 2005 – December 2005. " That's right, BILLIONS!

July 19, 2010: "The third, and largest, combined sanitary and storm sewer overflow of 2010 spilled an estimated 506 million gallons of untreated wastewater into local rivers and Lake Michigan on Thursday and Friday, Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District officials said Monday".

August 29, 2011: "Baltimore County reported 12 incidents of sewage pumping stations overflowing this weekend, with each incident releasing between 2,000 gallons and more than 13 million gallons of sewage mixed with rainwater, according to the state agency."

These overflows happen in Lake Erie every time there is a major rain, to the tune of millions of gallons each event - at each location. This is where the problem is, not recreational boaters. How many boats flushing, what, a quart or so several times a weekend, would have even the slightest impact relative to numbers like these?

As Peggy commented, we have "misinformed and misguided environmental extremists" looking out for our better interests.

thinwater · Sep 8, 2011

NotCook said:
Let's get the order of magnitude properly set. Here is one example: "a report released by Environment Ohio reveals that more than ten billion gallons of sewage contaminated Lake Erie and waterways in the Lake Erie watershed basin from January 2005 – December 2005. " That's right, BILLIONS!

July 19, 2010: "The third, and largest, combined sanitary and storm sewer overflow of 2010 spilled an estimated 506 million gallons of untreated wastewater into local rivers and Lake Michigan on Thursday and Friday, Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District officials said Monday".

August 29, 2011: "Baltimore County reported 12 incidents of sewage pumping stations overflowing this weekend, with each incident releasing between 2,000 gallons and more than 13 million gallons of sewage mixed with rainwater, according to the state agency."

These overflows happen in Lake Erie every time there is a major rain, to the tune of millions of gallons each event - at each location. This is where the problem is, not recreational boaters. How many boats flushing, what, a quart or so several times a weekend, would have even the slightest impact relative to numbers like these?

As Peggy commented, we have "misinformed and misguided environmental extremists" looking out for our better interests.

I think we should let Peggy pick her own words. I'll pick mine.

My impression is that NDZs are what bother her, and comparing dumping every holding tank with dumping type I MSDs is silly. They are very different. Sewage treatment started out about controlling pathenogenic bacteria, and the type Is do that very well. They reduce other pollutants also, just not as effectively.

We should consider that combined sewers were once the rage because they were economical to install (compared to separate systems) but that they are no long permitted in new installations. The vast majority (not all) of overflows are combined sewer related, triggered by storms. A huge problem that will be solved over time. It's childish to wave our finger at that as a comparison.

Let's take the Baltimore county example. Baltimore county is the only large City in that portion of the Bay, including the Annapolis area concentration of boats. There are better than 5,000 boats slipped in that area. Let's assume the average cruiser (we'll only count 1500 of those boats) generates 20x6 pump-outs per year = 120 gallons. Let's remember that ALL of the human waste is in that number (no storm water, shower, sinks, washing machines, or dishwashers) so that the waste is about 20 times as strong as typical POTW inflows. 1500*120*20=3,600,000 equivalent gallons of infected sewage, distributed primarily on weekends in 3 summer months near beaches where folks swim.

I understand sailors' discontent, but we don't want to be the cause of that. I say we do our best and keep one eye open for stupid laws.

And quit expecting free pump-outs. Someone's got to pay for the service. If you think it's too high, start a business.

KD3PC · Sep 8, 2011

thinwater said:
Let's take the Baltimore county example. Baltimore county is the only large City in that portion of the Bay, including the Annapolis area concentration of boats. There are better than 5,000 boats slipped in that area. Let's assume the average cruiser (we'll only count 1500 of those boats) generates 20x6 pump-outs per year = 120 gallons. Let's remember that ALL of the human waste is in that number (no storm water, shower, sinks, washing machines, or dishwashers) so that the waste is about 20 times as strong as typical POTW inflows. 1500*120*20=3,600,000 equivalent gallons of infected sewage, distributed primarily on weekends in 3 summer months near beaches where folks swim.

Me thinks there is too much fudge in your factors...

what makes you think that the holding tank sludge is 20 times "stronger" (whatever that means) than shoreside systems.

Nor are your numbers about most of the "overflows" related to storm water. Just this past week a +50" sewer main in Northern baltimore county cracked...to the tune of 17MILLION gallons daily, not storm related at all according to the news...and although it has been "slowed" considerably in the 6-10 days since it transpired, it is still flowing.

Many shoreside overflows are simply breakdown, over capacity, and human error that goes undetected until a citizen complains (a lot in suburban MD) and to NOT exclude VA from this, many city systems offer no treatment, per se, just settling tanks, and overflow goes directly in to the nearest stream/creek/river much like the drain field of a home septic tank does. See shennandoah systems in particular.

Cayennita · Sep 8, 2011

In the late 90's Ft. Lauderdale passed a law where every docked boat shall be always be connected to a pump out hose. That meant all of the 3-4 boat marinas behind private homes or apartments had to install a pump out system.
Before that, you flew a flag and a pump out boat that you contracted would pump you out. That business practically died.
The actual water quality was worse because the old pipes couldn't handle the extra load and started leaking. Sometimes better is worse.

RichH · Sep 8, 2011

"Me thinks there is too much fudge in your factors..."

I doesnt matter whether there is a high 'dilution rate' of sewage or not simply because the typical ABSOLUTE number of pathogenic organisms remains the same.

The point here is that municipal sewerage systems are very obviously outdated, undercapacity for actual sewage, are mixed with storm, etc. water, the systems are broken/leaking and are probably saturating the ground water with shit. Yes, sanitation has come a long way since the human population, as a matter of normal course, crapped in the streets (ankle deep in most cities if the historians are correct) and simply threw their 'night soil' out the window but it is apparently becoming a real problem. .... and the municipalities still seemingly deflect their responsibilities by blaming an exceptionally miniscule population of boaters.

It's the PATHOGENS, stupid.

I just wonder what these ineffective and apparently incompetent 'bureaucrats' will do when their resident population has a cholera, etc. epidemic? .... you can bet the farm that they will probably blame it on 'boaters'?

thinwater · Sep 8, 2011

I actually tried to delete this post, but I waited too long.

kd3pc said:
Me thinks there is too much fudge in your factors...

what makes you think that the holding tank sludge is 20 times "stronger" (whatever that means) than shoreside systems.

Nor are your numbers about most of the "overflows" related to storm water. Just this past week a +50" sewer main in Northern baltimore county cracked...to the tune of 17MILLION gallons daily, not storm related at all according to the news...and although it has been "slowed" considerably in the 6-10 days since it transpired, it is still flowing.

Many shoreside overflows are simply breakdown, over capacity, and human error that goes undetected until a citizen complains (a lot in suburban MD) and to NOT exclude VA from this, many city systems offer no treatment, per se, just settling tanks, and overflow goes directly in to the nearest stream/creek/river much like the drain field of a home septic tank does. See shennandoah systems in particular.

But, I might as well respond. My fudge factors are quite defensible.

a. 20 times stronger is simple. The BOD5 of marine head waste is typically >2000 ppm, compared to combined sewer efluent of 100-150 ppm. You can find this on-line and I am quite sure of it. It is obvious common sense, when you consider that most wastewater in a combined sewer is what boaters consider gray water and deck run-off.

b. Not named storms. Ordinary rainfalls, and it doesn't take much. This is why combined sewers are a terrible idea. Yes, I maintain my possition that design is the problem and that rainfall is a common trigger.

But I won't argue that failed septics, errors, and break downs aren't far too common. I also feel those things are off the point; my speeding behavior is not be excused by the misbehavior of other rivers. This is a retorical falacy.

The important question is whether dumping a type III MSD in a harbor or off a beach could make someone sick. Some crowded harbors could count as small towns without treatment; pump-out or get treatment (type I). I think this is simple, symetrical and obvious.

thinwater · Sep 8, 2011

Sort of off-topic, but...

If you would like a good read, look up "The Ghost Map", a story of a cholera epidemic in London and the first time an investigator simply put shoe leather toward finding the cause. He knocked on doors and eventually tied it to a single waste contaminated well, even though germ theory was not yet accepted. It was the first time a well was closed in London for health reasons.

Why should we care about pumping out...

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