Why it's so hard to run a diesel properly.

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Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
It is pretty well understood, at least around here I believe, that operating a diesel at too low a power level will lead to increased maintenance and shorter life. Exhaust elbows coke up and low oil temperatures don't boil off water. Piston rings and valves are sealed by the combustion pressure and, if it is too low, gases will blow by causing premature erosion and wear.

What is probably not as well understood is how hard it is to operate a sailboat diesel at the desirable 80% power level that will minimize these problems. Marketing pressure to install oversize engines combined with cost savings in transmissions and props makes it almost impossible in many vessels. The basic problem though is in the nature of propellers.

Here is the power curve for my engine. The numbers will be different for others but the basic relationships will be the same.



The dotted line shows the maximum power the engine can produce for short periods. It's called a 1-hr rating but you could actually run it all day at those power outputs. You just wouldn't get the promised life. The solid line labeled "Continuous rating output" shows the power level you can run the engine at 24/7 with reasonable expectation of getting the full time between overhauls. The engine governor limits this engine to turning no faster than 2800 RPM regardless of how low the power draw is.

The Propeller power curve is for the prop that Yanmar expected to be put on the engine. This prop would draw 20 H.P. at 2600 RPM with the boat free running in smooth water. Open the throttle further and the RPM won't increase because the engine doesn't have enough power to turn the prop faster. The engine will just labor and pour out black smoke. A more carefully set up and sophisticated engine would have its governor set to limit RPM to 2600 for this prop.

80% of 20 H.P. is 16. If this were a controllable pitch prop that could be adjusted to draw full power at any RPM, the engine could be run as slow as 2100 without creating light load running problems. However, the nature of fixed pitch props is for the power draw to drop off much quicker as shown by the curve. The slowest the engine should be run for cruising and long periods with the prop envisioned by Yanmar is 2400. This is only 200 RPM less than maximum continuous. It's instinctive to think of 80% power being 80% RPM, or 1900, but that is actually only 40% power, way too low.

The problems become compounded in the typical sailboat installation. My engine turns right up to the governor limit and I see just a hint of darkening in the exhaust smoke at WOT so my prop curve is closer to the red line. It could even be lower. The target power level of 16 HP is therefore at 2500 RPM on my boat, only 100 less than the 2600 max you might infer from the graph.

My boat, like many sailboats, has plenty of power. It's nice when handling under power in line squalls or bucking head seas but it means she is positively jumping at 2500 RPM. From the standpoint of fuel consumption, comfort, and range, she runs very well at 2100. You can see from the red prop curve that this is only 9 HP. The engine feels great at that speed but it isn't a happy camper. I run actually run a lot at 2100 but I try to get up to 2600 for 10-15 minutes every time the engine is run and run harder whenever fuel consumption and comfort permit. From the standpoint of engine longevity and maintenance, a 12 HP engine would be optimum for my boat. I could get optimum fuel economy while running the engine at its best speed. I wouldn't have the reserves for severe conditions but those account for only a tiny percentage of my running time.

Many boats of my model were built with the 3 cylinder, 30 HP version of the engine as an option because people thought they were getting more safety in rough conditions. The props were the same size however. Even with a lot more pitch, there is no way the 3 cylinder boats are ever getting their engines up into the optimum power band. There are a lot of sailboats out there with similar power-displacement-prop relationships. It's no wonder sailboat diesels often have short lives.

Run your diesel as hard as you can, it will thank you for it.
 
Aug 31, 2007
296
Catalina 30 Petoskey, Mich.
I have wondered about this topic many times. My Catalina 30 with Universal 25 seems to run nicely at 1800-1900 RPMs but people say it can go up to 22 or higher. I don't know for sure but it seems to be really screaming when I try it for short periods, the water temp also jumps from 190 to 200 plus, I'm not sure exactly how I should run it, I just run it where it feels good to me.

Any advise or additional info is alway appreciated, Dean
 
Jun 4, 2004
66
Hunter 30 Union Springs, NY
I just replace my exhaust and mixing elbows on my 20 gm20f and couldn't believe the gunk on the inside of the old one. The engine sounds better and runs smoother than ever. Your article will help me maintain it better. Thanks!
PS: vacationing in your part of the world next week...Scarborough, ME, make the sun shine!
 
Sep 25, 2008
615
Morgan 415 Out Island Rogersville, AL
Roger, very good stuff.

For many engines running at higher rpms, vibrations can be severe, even when the shaft is aligned and the bearings good. I one time had a Renaut single cylinder engine that vibrated so much that cast iron brackets would occassionaly break. I suspect that such engines are hard on their motor mounts and cause other issues from running at high RPMs that cause problems with the engine beds (holes elongating and water intrusion leading to rot). Everying is a trade-off (I know I am preaching to the choir). However, what you say makes sense and underscores what I tell all sailors--a happy engine is a used engine.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Somewhere in my files I have the specifications for a Ford marine diesel that is used in pleasure service, police and military service and workboat service, with the expected service demand for each catagory. They down rate the engine power from pleasure boat service to police work to workboat service as they increase the hours of expected running at maximum power. For pleasure boats they anticipate 300 hours per year, for police and military service about 500 hours per year and for workboat service unlimited hours at full power. The difference as I recall is about 325 hp for pleasure boat service and about 250hp for workboat service. I guess that works out to about 75 percent.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Any advise or additional info is alway appreciated
Prop curves are all pretty similar so you should run a bit over 90% of the maximum RPM your engine will reach if (big if) the prop is properly matched to the engine.

It's unlikely in a sail boat that the prop will be too large (in terms of both diameter and pitch) but, if it is, the engine will start smoking and reach maximum RPM before what is shown on the power curve. This should be checked as such a prop could be overloading the engine over the full power range, like driving your car in too low a gear all the time.

If the prop is too small by a large amount, and this is probably true for a lot of sailboats, the it won't be absorbing full horsepower even at the maximum RPM the governor permits. If the engine is too large for the hull, more often than not the case, you can be going too fast for comfort, have a lot of noise, be burning more fuel than you need, and still be suffering the problems of running the engine too lightly.

You need a lot of information to determine the characteristics of each installation but, in the absence of that data, running your engine as hard as comfort, your ears, vibration, and your wallet permit is much more likely to be better for it than loafing along. If you can't run hard most of the time, get it up to full power as often as you can.

Power curves are available for most engines and will be in every engine manual. You should have the complete service manual anyway. Torrsen Marine has them for most engines.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
They down rate the engine power from pleasure boat service to police work to workboat service as they increase the hours of expected running at maximum power.
That downrating consists of different injectors and other adjustments. The workboat engine running at 250 HP is not running the same way as the 350 HP pleasure craft version with the throttle backed off to only produce 250 horsepower. The pleasure craft engine will not be happy running at 250 HP for long periods.

Engine life (or more accurately, time between overhauls) is primarily determined by the total amount of fuel that is run through the engine. They promise or expect that an engine will last a certain number of years so that fact is reflected in the hours per year quoted. All these numbers are very fuzzy and imprecise.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
I just replace my exhaust and mixing elbows on my 20 gm20f and couldn't believe the gunk on the inside of the old one. The engine sounds better and runs smoother than ever. Your article will help me maintain it better. Thanks!
PS: vacationing in your part of the world next week...Scarborough, ME, make the sun shine!
Plugged exhaust elbows are the more the result of having OLD (degraded) fuel in the tank than 'babying' an engine. Diesel has a definite 'shelf life' when exposed to the atmosphere, breaks down (the microorganisms do the breakdown) which result in a lot of 'alkene' (tar) formation. The alkenes dont burn well in the combustion chamber and pass downstream only to attach on the hot surfaces of the exhaust manifold and injection elbow .... and there slowy change into 'coke'.
If you have a plugged water injection nozzle, it isnt the engine's fault, its your fault for letting the fuel degrade in the tank !!!!!!!!!! Dont 'top off' the fuel tank, put in only enough fuel that you NEED plus a little 'reserve', remove the fuel at the end of the season, etc. .... and CLEAN OUT THE TANK on a regular basis.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Good posting Roger.
When setting up LARGE prime mover diesels (powerhouse stuff, etc.), the diesels are carefully selected and then 'geared' properly so that they run only at ~75% to 80% of their max. rpm (1 hour rating) so that the engine service life is optimized. This ensures that the cooling system, the engine operating temps (lube oil temp.), piston speeds, compression peaks, flame velocities ..... are all optimized. No matter if the engine costs $millions or $thousands .... proper operating will give you the maximum LIFE.
Proper rpm with the proper propeller pitch (so the engine doesnt 'lug' (high combustion pressures and extreme connecting rod and piston pressures) is the goal in a marine diesel. Proper rpm will develop the PROPER internal heat or operating temperature ... which will then develop BLACK rust (ferrous oxide) which is 'protective' instead of the RED rust (ferric oxide) which is destructive. The 'killer' of marine diesels is internal rust ... so run them as HOT as you can and as often as you can to keep the internal of the cooling system BLACK.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
After reading Dave Gerr's propellor book I decided that 10 hp with a 3:1 reduction gear and a 3 blade 13x13 prop would serve me well. I have aperature restrictions or I would have gone 15x10. I don't quite reach hull speed but I start to dig a hole in the river above 5.5 knots. I planned the engine primarily as a harbor engine but we use it far more than that. After ten years of adding fuel and changing oil I have had no problems of any kind with the system. It run very economically at 4.5 knots in flat water.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,360
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
exhaust riser gunk

OK, OK, I'll just say it again. It appears from reading your posts on this board for the last umpteenth years, that the Yanmar exhaust elbows are considerably more prone to gunking up that has been my experience on our exhaust riser. When my riser failed many years ago, it broke just above the nipple (see my two previous picture posts) but the riser was NOT gunked up, not the nipple and nowhere in the pipe. This is not a knock on Yanmar, far from it, just my experience from what I've seen, read and heard from all of you.

Upon reflection, it could well be because of the arrangement of the riser, where the ware is injected on the curve of the fitting as shown in Roger's photo. On ours, the water is injected into the pipe on a downslope for both the water and the exhaust gases. Just an idea without any merit whatsoever!!!:):):)
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
If the injection nozzle was 'better cooled' and had a 'better flow pattern' from the water nozzle, then the internal surfaces wouldnt be hot enough to cause the calcium carbonates to instantaneously 'precipitate' out of the cooling water upon contact with the hot metal/gases AT the nozzle, wouldnt have the 'dribs' of water being carried back upstream against the gas flow, etc.
ie. such a injection nozzle 'should' be designed more properly as an liquid/gas EDUCTOR .... the injection water AIDING to pull the gases FROM the engine within a properly designed VENTURI system.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
it could well be because of the arrangement of the riser, where the ware is injected on the curve of the fitting as shown in Roger's photo.
I'll know for sure when the new one arrives but I'm sure it doesn't work that way. If the water was injected on the upslope, it would run back into the engine and my engine would be toast by now. I'm quite sure it is a water cooled elbow because it's barely warm even after the engine has been running a long time. I believe the water goes into a double wall and the around to exit holes on the down-slope side. I'll verify this when I see the new one.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,092
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
I had mine apart this spring to unclog the injection nipple but I pulled the whole thing apart. The casting has two passages with the water one a little smaller. There is a wall between them all the way to the downward slope of the radius. So you have exhaust gasses on the bottom and a water stream inside the casting on the top, the mixing takes place near the bottom of the radius as it enters the outlet pipe that is part of the casting. I did not observe any excessive coking of the casting on the exhaust side. I think it is important to let them get up to temperature and run a while each time also.
My riser is wrapped with fiberglass insulation tape up to the elbow, unlike the one in Roger's picture, so it likely keeps the gasses hotter until mixing with the water. The one area on Roger's assembly not cooled and uninsulated, while a source of heat in those cold Me. summers, is an opportunity for a burn when scrounging around in there and I highly recommend Roger insulate the street elbow and adjacent fittings. Granted the lengths are short but there is a right way and an unsafe way to do things. Stu's post shows his riser all wrapped in something that looks like aluminum foil maybe he can chime in on what it is?
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
I highly recommend Roger insulate the street elbow and adjacent fittings.
Excellent advice for most installations but I'll probably remain the exception. I can't physically get near enough for a burn to be a risk except when the engine has to be shut down anyway.

As Rich points out, the cooler the exhaust run, the less chance of it coking up. Insulation would just hold heat. The elbow stays surprisingly cool. I was able to put my hand on it right after docking after only a couple hundred yards running at low RPM. There is evidently enough heat transfer to the water cooled components on both sides that it doesn't get super hot. The exhaust has already gone through a water cooled manifold.
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,220
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
I'd be careful about insulating things that are really hot and have no real way for heat to leave if insulated.. The air does a pretty good job of keeping the street ell cooler.. I am an exception as well, Roger.. mine is not insulated.. I would think that insulating that outlet area would work the gaskets and fasteners much harder because the exhaust manifold and the mixing ell are both water cooled .. an insulated outlet area would be MUCH hotter than the other parts and expand much more than if air cooled.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
The practice for dry exhausts is to shield them with steel mesh. You see this often on highway trucks where the exhaust stack is close to the doors.
 
Mar 21, 2004
2,175
Hunter 356 Cobb Island, MD
Always wonder about these setting. We power sail quite often, the wind is about 3-5 kts from abeam and we have a 6hr run ahead of us. I will run the 3gm30 about 2000rpm and get a good apparent wind speed that will push us along about 5 sometimes 6kts. If I run the rpm upto 2800 which for me is 80% rating the apparent angle goes to far forward and the sails luff. Always wonder which is better? I do run the engine up to 2800 for periods of time.

What'ca think?
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,360
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Stu's post shows his riser all wrapped in something that looks like aluminum foil maybe he can chime in on what it is?
It's insulation covered by the foil from the Catalina factory. Don't know what kinda insulation, but it's about 3/4" thick.

As for insulation, it is NOT to keep the inside of the pipe hotter, it IS to keep the materials surrounding the piping, like the inside wooden parts of your boat, from getting too hot and burning up. That's what insulation is for for HOT stuff. For cold stuff, it keeps it cooler, saves energy (as does hot, too), and avoids condensation.

Motorsailing: yes, zeehag, you're right, go too fast motoring when motorsailing and the AW goes way forward and the sails lose their "assist."
 
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