Down here, in America, an emergency is defined as a situation that requires urgent action. Not sure what distinction you intend to make, here.
Why Don't You Use ActiveCaptain?
- Thread starter Foswick
- Start date
MayDay, Pan Pan (pahn, pahn), and securitie are the 3 warning calls. All of them connote a sense of urgency and are in international use with the same meaning.They are the same on both sides of the border.
MayDay- when life and limb and boat are in severe danger
Pan Pan- an urgent request for assistance, but not for imminent danger.
Securite- Notice of potential danger, floating logs, large restricted draft boats entering narrow channels, boat that has lost power but is not in danger and so forth.
www.boatus.org
MayDay- when life and limb and boat are in severe danger
Pan Pan- an urgent request for assistance, but not for imminent danger.
Securite- Notice of potential danger, floating logs, large restricted draft boats entering narrow channels, boat that has lost power but is not in danger and so forth.
Calling for Help: Marine Communications
In emergency situations, there are certain procedures to follow to ensure prompt response to your need for help. There are three phrases that you might hear on a VHF radio, and they all relate to safety.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,141
Down here on American waters. Pan pan means there is a state of urgency. The boat is not sinking. Life is not in danger.
I have a serious situation. I want you guys listening. I think we got it under control. Please stand by if all hell breaks loose.
I have a serious situation. I want you guys listening. I think we got it under control. Please stand by if all hell breaks loose.
Years ago while crossing the approach lanes to New York Harbor we used Securite to alert shipping of our presence in heavy fog. Included were a position, course and speed. We were informed separately that those alerts are irritating to shipping pilots because they have to plot the position, course and speed. It was extra work for them and endangered their careers if they smushed yacht traffic.
Now there's AIS so it's less of an issue. While the ship won't see an AIS free yacht, a yacht equipped with AIS will see the ship and will be able to detect any collision possibility. The slow sailboat may not be able to escape the faster moving commercial traffic, but knowing the name of the vessel allows hailing on VHF and a plan to avoid collision.
Now there's AIS so it's less of an issue. While the ship won't see an AIS free yacht, a yacht equipped with AIS will see the ship and will be able to detect any collision possibility. The slow sailboat may not be able to escape the faster moving commercial traffic, but knowing the name of the vessel allows hailing on VHF and a plan to avoid collision.
Same here, but along the east coast. Also used it for comments about bridge heights (quite a few ICW bridge clearances are often or usually lower than the charted 65 ft). Unfortunately even though it was rarely recent information, it was usually more complete that other guides such as Waterway Guide.
No. Not going to sugar coat it; as others have stated you will not get the critical mass of users needed to make such a thing useful.
What makes you think it would have saved the poor kayaker (with all due respect) from hypothermia? Or the dummies who anchored 2 minutes from a fuel dock with no radio/phones/signals?
You keep emphasizing it’s not an emergency app yet even after reading your description and examples I’m not “getting it”, and haven't read a single response from someone else here saying “yeah, I would use that” as opposed to other options for sharing local knowledge and social posts.
IMHO do it if it’s your passion, but this is unlikely to take off.
I can definitely see the utility in this endeavor. The VHF is a valuable tool but only works if the person needing assistance has one, it is tuned on and functioning properly.
Many folks new to water activities think of a cell phone as the only means of communication necessary. Problem with that is there may be assistance much closer but you don't know their phone number.
I do not see this as a replacement for a VHF radio but as another tool with some additional utility.
Keep at it
Many folks new to water activities think of a cell phone as the only means of communication necessary. Problem with that is there may be assistance much closer but you don't know their phone number.
I do not see this as a replacement for a VHF radio but as another tool with some additional utility.
Keep at it
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,141
"Alerts are irritating for shipping pilots."
Your Securite call, as you describe, is the exact reason the call out is in the regs. It is like a lookout calling down to the Pilot House, "Captain, there is a sailboat 3 points off our starboard bow". AIS is a real aide to navigation in crowded waterways. Sure the big boats have restrictive routes they may take. Plotting the ship and the potential targets that may be a problem is part of their job, like sipping hot coffee. Treating small boats like potholes in the road is not.
Thanks much for the information, as I have been sorta kinda relegating the "Securite" announcements to something from an "official" source like the USCG, and not something that a recreational boater (like little ol' me) might send out.MayDay, Pan Pan (pahn, pahn), and securitie are the 3 warning calls. All of them connote a sense of urgency and are in international use with the same meaning.They are the same on both sides of the border.
MayDay- when life and limb and boat are in severe danger
Pan Pan- an urgent request for assistance, but not for imminent danger.
Securite- Notice of potential danger, floating logs, large restricted draft boats entering narrow channels, boat that has lost power but is not in danger and so forth.
Calling for Help: Marine Communications
In emergency situations, there are certain procedures to follow to ensure prompt response to your need for help. There are three phrases that you might hear on a VHF radio, and they all relate to safety.
I think it depends on circumstance and judgment. It’s never wrong to anticipate the worst and play safe. In a busy harbor with commercial traffic, at night, or in fog or heavy rain, it would be wise to issue securitay calls UNLESS you have an active AIS transceiver. If you‘re transmitting AIS it’s unnecessary but would still be prudent if there is likely to be commercial fishing traffic. In my experience in New England and the Bahamas the commercial fishing boats operate recklessly in fog and at night, and they often don‘t keep a proper watch (or proper speed in fog). They are often so brightly lit at night there’s no way they could see beyond their own boat.
If you detect a close course intersection with approaching traffic the most appropriate thing would be to call the other vessel by name if they have AIS, and discuss safe course. If you’re picking up a radar signal that may be intersecting and no AIS I do recommend a securitay call.
If you detect a close course intersection with approaching traffic the most appropriate thing would be to call the other vessel by name if they have AIS, and discuss safe course. If you’re picking up a radar signal that may be intersecting and no AIS I do recommend a securitay call.
I think this is the OP's position also, but it relies on the exact same constraint as VHF - people have to have it "turned on". For a phone app, that means one has to be near their phone to hear an alert notification, and alert notifications have to be turned on. For me, my phone is often buried in the boat and I'm outside. Most of my alert notifications for social-type apps have been turned off because otherwise I just have the thing beeping all day for silly things I'm not interested in.
I'm still waiting for enlightenment on whether more modern phones than mine are suitable for the shock and water immersion that comes with kiteboarding.
Mark
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,141
I am guessing, based on observation, that the answer is - Not Yet. My SWAG is that the great risk for a phone on a kiteboarder is flying out of the holder and diving into the water on it's own.
I get it. I might use it under the right conditions. You want some help, but not urgently enough to pester the Coast Guard or even BoatUS. There are some similar things I use. Our yacht club has a membership list, you can start calling people or call the Dockmaster who could coordinate something. Great Lakes Cruising Club has Port Captains assigned for every port who are familiar with their port. If you need help finding a dock, a mechanic, or a ride to the liquor store, you can call the Port Captain who will try to hook you up.
I recall seeing some app that did facebook/google group like features but specifically for groups of boaters, but it was more like "notify everyone in the harbor that I'm ready to party" so it was not for me.
I recall seeing some app that did facebook/google group like features but specifically for groups of boaters, but it was more like "notify everyone in the harbor that I'm ready to party" so it was not for me.
Everywhere we go there is at least one Whatsapp group chat for the immediate area. This is used very much like the OP describes. The other day a boat on a reef alerted everyone in the area via the local Whatsapp chat and had dinghies out to help him quickly.
BTW, outside the US, Whatsapp is used for everything. You can't contact a business by phone or email - only by Whatsapp. It is also the main telephone calling app for everyone.
Mark
The premise that a new app (no matter how good the potential) could quickly become the "defacto" calling app is totally absurd, unless it is mandated by government authorities. The fact that it relies on a delicate smart phone to have data reception everywhere in the marine environment with the app (on and open) and handy all the time completely rules it out.
Governments have already mandated the means and procedures, and "In general, any vessel equipped with a VHF marine radiotelephone (whether voluntarily or required to) must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radiotelephone is not being used to communicate. " Radio Watchkeeping Regulations | Navigation Center
If someone doesn't turn on their VHF radio, what would possibly motivate them to be watch-keeping on a new social media app? This premise is beyond absurd, and not even possible where there's no cell or internet. IMHO this thing is dead before it ever gets out of the gate.
Governments have already mandated the means and procedures, and "In general, any vessel equipped with a VHF marine radiotelephone (whether voluntarily or required to) must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radiotelephone is not being used to communicate. " Radio Watchkeeping Regulations | Navigation Center
If someone doesn't turn on their VHF radio, what would possibly motivate them to be watch-keeping on a new social media app? This premise is beyond absurd, and not even possible where there's no cell or internet. IMHO this thing is dead before it ever gets out of the gate.
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This is what makes me understand that I haven't explained this very well. This isn't at ALL what we are suggesting. Most of the responses on this thread have been about a system that we do not intend to build. So again, that is clearly on me.
Again, clearly haven't explained this well, as this is not a social media app (well, kind of, I guess, in a broad sense).
I am happy to hear constructive voices about what people, themselves, would and wouldn't use. That's what I asked for. I am surprised, however, that the response has been almost hostile. That is also informative, and I am glad to learn that as well.
Look, I get it. I think I was upfront about some of the pros/cons/concerns I had with the concept. I was rather hoping to refine it into something that is more useful, rather than tear down an imaginary system that isn't even being considered.
The fault is clearly with my explanation, at least partially. I do think there is some knee-jerk response but that just tells me that there is an emotional aspect to this that I need to be aware of. The local response (talking to people in person) has been really strong. That might also suggest that there are also regional differences that need to be considered.
The concept is highly localized anyway. But we have discussed possibly opening it up to other locations. My sense is that different locations will view it very differently.
There is also an age gap in responses. People closer to my age (including me personally) tend to have a "don't need it" attitude. Under 50, and certainly under 40, those responses start to change. The most enthusiastic group has been people relatively new to boating (fewer than about 3-5 years), people around 35-40, and people with smaller vessels (like 1-2 person vessels). For the most part, that is none of us, here.
As I mentioned earlier, I might revisit this topic when I have something more concrete to discuss, since I don't think it is productive spending time responding to comments about a system concept that I wasn't proposing. But, let me try to address a few things, hopefully better than I already have:
- Not meant to replace any existing system. But, it is based on meeting people where they are. By that, I mean that people always have their phone, they are always on, and they are the device they turn to first when they need something. I get that we are not all like that, particularly some of us who have been at this a while. But, I promise you, almost everyone one the water IS like that. You don't have to like it (I don't love it), but that is where folks are. It is pointless to say, "Well, folks shouldn't be stupid. They should use the VHF, as intended." But, that's just wishing. People turn to the tool they know the best and, frankly, mobile phones with all of their limitations, are still great tools.
- This solution does not rely on a massive membership, as has been suggested. It relies on 2 or more people. It is potentially better if there are more people on the water at any moment, but this is not a system that depends on a massive nationwide (or even regional) membership.
- Although it is decidedly not social media, one aim is to make folks more aware of who else is out and help put people in touch that might not otherwise connect.
- Folks who have commented on how a YC has a WhatsApp group (or similar) are closest. You could think of it a bit like that, but more structured and with better built-in privacy, plus of course GPS and basic mapping. It is a way to know who is out/available and putting people in touch with each other, as appropriate - albeit for social, logistical, informational, or whatever purpose. Yes, it sort of has a "hailing" aspect, but with two important differences. First, it is not blind. When you reach out, you already know (at least roughly) who is out there and "listening". Second, it would be a better first try, rather than an only try. That is, if I needed that gallon of fuel, I might try this system and, lacking a response, maybe call the fuel dock or a tow.
- I don't think this is very useful to folks like kiteboarders. My comment there was that those folks have been really enthusiastic about it, though I can't see why. I guess it is something you would use when still on land - like to see who's out, find out about conditions, etc. So, I suppose it makes sense in that way. (But, yes, many phones are waterproof(ish) these days, though I wouldn't want to get mine out while bobbing in the water, if I didn't absolutely have to.)
- This might not have helped save my friend, but for reasons peculiar to that incident. Otherwise, it very well could have. At minimum, he could have been found much sooner. (Granted, there are a bijillion other GPS tracking systems for mobile phones that paddlers use. This would be no better, in that regard. I do, however, still want to build out the feature that responds to an overdue paddler/boater. I built this to about 75% completion, years ago, and just never finished it.)
- This is not meant to the "the next big thing" that will be used by boaters worldwide. This is meant for local communities of boaters/paddlers to be used for local benefit. In fact, right now, it is only meant for our local community. We don't know if we will ever release it outside of the immediate area.
I do not think the app is primarily intended for the seasoned boater crowd who is likely well versed in VHF communication. I see it as intended for neophytes who undoubtedly have a cell phone and secondarily for everyone else. To achieve a critical mass and make it worthwhile the chore will be to attract the boaters less likely to need it.
A feature likely to get a lot of use would be something similar to Waze where the location Fish and Game guys are hanging out and checking catches could be broadcast but not for nefarious purposes of course.
A feature likely to get a lot of use would be something similar to Waze where the location Fish and Game guys are hanging out and checking catches could be broadcast but not for nefarious purposes of course.
Since you have not clearly communicated what this app is, you should probably spend time clarifying what the app is intended to be and the intended demographics. It would be more productive than just telling us we don't understand without giving us a clearer picture. It's been like playing 20 questions.
Honestly, I've spent the time to read this entire long post (and all the posts above) and I don't feel I'm any closer to understanding what it is you are proposing.
Perhaps this may help - here is what I understand:
It's something used on a cell phone.
It's not a social media app... but sort of....
There is some kind of "I need help - but non-emergency" that I'm not understanding.
There is some kind of "float plan" aspect that I am not understanding.
If I were to find it useful or not, I can't tell you at this point. It is totally unclear to me what it is you are trying to create and what missing niche you are trying to fill.
dj
I was going to revisit this later, when we had some more concrete decisions, since this conversation seemed to go off the rails, a bit. But, I'll try one more time.
First, I take complete responsibility. I am not saying "you guys just don't get it". I am saying, I have done a poor job explaining. This is partially because I have discussed this system with a LOT of people over the past couple of weeks, and I don't remember what I've said to whom.
Also, part of this is that this is not a completed system, by any stretch. This is an early-days discussion. We have some general ideas, but nothing is set in stone yet. Some of what I mentioned will make it into the final product, some won't. And, there will be things we haven't even thought of yet. I was hoping that these discussions would help with that. You are seeing a really early glimpse behind the process of how these things are developed - not a finished proposal.
So, let's start with the premise or the perceived problem we are trying to address:
In our community, there are a lot of people on the water for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of vessels. For the most part, no one knows anyone else. If you belong to a club, you probably know people in your club, but that's about it. We see the same people on the water, frequently, but don't know anything about them. There is a general agreement among boaters in the area that they feel isolated from other boaters, even among some that belong to clubs.
We want to do a better job of creating a sense of community in our immediate local area. We live in an age when the increasing expectation that any such cohesion involves some digital communication. Good or bad, that is how it works, these days.
Part of belonging to a community is that we help each other out. It is important, even if we never use it, to feel like you do have support in the community, if you need it.
Ways I, personally, would use this app:
It has obvious (hopefully) uses for things like organized cruises or race nights, where VHF chatter isn't appropriate and most other media (like group text) lacks the ability to include positional information (mapping) and/or filter messages that don't pertain.
My hope is that yacht and paddling clubs will be among early adopters. Then, we convince clubs to share "channels" to broaden the community and break down some silos.
There are other tools that address this need partially, but none is purpose-built for the on-the-water community. SeaPeople is maybe an exception and I think the comparison is a fair one. Honestly, I think the main differentiators from SeaPeople are:
Importantly, our system will support an optional SMS (text messaging) interface. So, if you don't have a data signal or just don't want to install the app, you can still participate.
Yes, this still requires a signal and, no, this is not always available. But, this isn't for every possible situation. It isn't meant to be a tool you rely on in remote areas, or an emergency hailing tool, or any application where a lack of signal would be particularly problematic. Nearly all boats on the water in our region at any given moment are well within cell range. I actually suspect it will get a big chunk of its use just at the marina. And, it probably won't be particularly useful outside of our bay. But, 90% (completely made up number) of all on-the-water activity of people in this area takes place in the bay.
Hopefully, that is a better explanation than I offered, previously.
If it still isn't for you, that's completely fine. Like I've said, it probably isn't really for me, either. That is, if I didn't build it, I'm not sure I would use it. But, we're getting really strong feedback from people who believe they would. I'm trying to understand what people do and don't want, so we can make a better system.
First, I take complete responsibility. I am not saying "you guys just don't get it". I am saying, I have done a poor job explaining. This is partially because I have discussed this system with a LOT of people over the past couple of weeks, and I don't remember what I've said to whom.
Also, part of this is that this is not a completed system, by any stretch. This is an early-days discussion. We have some general ideas, but nothing is set in stone yet. Some of what I mentioned will make it into the final product, some won't. And, there will be things we haven't even thought of yet. I was hoping that these discussions would help with that. You are seeing a really early glimpse behind the process of how these things are developed - not a finished proposal.
So, let's start with the premise or the perceived problem we are trying to address:
In our community, there are a lot of people on the water for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of vessels. For the most part, no one knows anyone else. If you belong to a club, you probably know people in your club, but that's about it. We see the same people on the water, frequently, but don't know anything about them. There is a general agreement among boaters in the area that they feel isolated from other boaters, even among some that belong to clubs.
We want to do a better job of creating a sense of community in our immediate local area. We live in an age when the increasing expectation that any such cohesion involves some digital communication. Good or bad, that is how it works, these days.
Part of belonging to a community is that we help each other out. It is important, even if we never use it, to feel like you do have support in the community, if you need it.
Ways I, personally, would use this app:
- "Hey, I am at my boat and need to turn her around in her slip. Anyone lend a hand?"
- "I brought my Sailrite machine out to the boat today (at the marina) and am done with my project. Anyone need anything while I've got it out?"
- "We are anchored over near Fairhaven and just blew our spare cooling belt. LFS has it in stock. Is someone coming this way in the next day or two?"
It has obvious (hopefully) uses for things like organized cruises or race nights, where VHF chatter isn't appropriate and most other media (like group text) lacks the ability to include positional information (mapping) and/or filter messages that don't pertain.
My hope is that yacht and paddling clubs will be among early adopters. Then, we convince clubs to share "channels" to broaden the community and break down some silos.
There are other tools that address this need partially, but none is purpose-built for the on-the-water community. SeaPeople is maybe an exception and I think the comparison is a fair one. Honestly, I think the main differentiators from SeaPeople are:
- Marketing: We hope to appeal to a broader demographic (in terms of age, personality, etc.) but also highly-localized. That is, it is probably not for anyone outside of about 25-30 mile radius. If it becomes available in the next town over, it will probably be highly-localized to them. There won't be much emphasis placed on joining those two communities in any way, but rather on strengthening each community's local ties.
- Structure: I think we are more focused on deliberate communication, rather than chatter. That is, maybe you want to see who is up for an impromptu BBQ out on the bay. I should be able to choose not to be notified of those sorts of messages/requests. Or, maybe that's the only kind of message I want. The structure puts individuals in better control so that it isn't just more noise that can/should be 99% ignored.
- Visibility: It also tells the person reaching out how many people are in the area that are open to receiving that kind of message. No point in a BBQ invitation if no one is nearby who might be open to that.
- Local: At least for now, confined to our local area, people can walk right up to the people who built and run the system. It is not some company somewhere else doing who-knows-what with your data, and not interested in your suggestions for improvement. That makes it easier for local clubs to warm to the idea, in some ways. It can be highly customized to fit the community.
Importantly, our system will support an optional SMS (text messaging) interface. So, if you don't have a data signal or just don't want to install the app, you can still participate.
Yes, this still requires a signal and, no, this is not always available. But, this isn't for every possible situation. It isn't meant to be a tool you rely on in remote areas, or an emergency hailing tool, or any application where a lack of signal would be particularly problematic. Nearly all boats on the water in our region at any given moment are well within cell range. I actually suspect it will get a big chunk of its use just at the marina. And, it probably won't be particularly useful outside of our bay. But, 90% (completely made up number) of all on-the-water activity of people in this area takes place in the bay.
Hopefully, that is a better explanation than I offered, previously.
If it still isn't for you, that's completely fine. Like I've said, it probably isn't really for me, either. That is, if I didn't build it, I'm not sure I would use it. But, we're getting really strong feedback from people who believe they would. I'm trying to understand what people do and don't want, so we can make a better system.