Why didn't I do this earlier ???

[Maine Sail]

So as things go I have been putting off the complete re-wire of my boat due to the sheer time involved. I was planning on it last winter but I wound up doing the bottom job instead.

I have been running new wires, on an as needed basis, and replacing stuff that I knew was bad. Unfortunately boats are like the proverbial haystack and until you peel away all the hay, read interior cabinetry, headliner etc. etc., you never know what you will find. While much of the wiring is still on ok shape a lot leaves me scared, especially the AC side, which I had fortunately never used because, I knew it was bad..

I found improper use of a dimple crimper, which really shouldn't be used on this type of connector to begin with but when you crimp it from the wrong side....well...

I sliced open the insulator and removed it. This is how the crimp executed. It's no wonder the wire simply slid out in my hand. This was done by the guy who installed the refrigeration!

This is solder creep. The PO installed a shunt and made this jumper. Not crimped, lots of solder creep and fractured wires.

This is why it is very, very important to properly size DC wiring and to ensure a good connection. This 16 ga wire fed a large vane type shower sump that was well beyond the capacity of the wire..

Never ceases to amaze me what you find on old boats, I'm sure I'll find more..

 

[Ross]

It always scares the hell out of me when I take the cover off a junction box in a house and the wire nuts fall out. I was working with a homeowner correcting some wire problems and he remarked that while I really crank down on those nuts he was always afraid he would get then too tight.

 

[jibes138]

Might be time for the chainsaw Maine. The more you look the more you find. Might be wise to cut your losses and put your time and effort into building a nice wooden boat that will last a hundred years or more. You should read the book "Wooden Boats" about the guys on Marthas Vineyard that build them. I think you will reconsider your path and move down there, select some nice boards from Surinam and start your new project. I look forward to seeing your new wooden boat.

 

[Ken Honeycutt]

What's scary is when you see these types of crimps in refineries, power plants, etc. on critical equipment. Don't know how many problems over the years I've found because of p**s P**r crimped wires...even on oriiginal equipment from the manufacturer.

 

[Witzend]

I have found more problems over the years with crimp connections. They are just a bad idea. No matter how well you crimp them they have space between the connections. Add some chlorine ions and you have corrosion. The corrosion increases the resistance, the voltage drops, as a result more current is demanded and the connection gets hot which causes the surfaces to oxidize, around and around we go.

 

[Stu Jackson]

OK, so???

I have found more problems over the years with crimp connections. They are just a bad idea. No matter how well you crimp them they have space between the connections. Add some chlorine ions and you have corrosion. The corrosion increases the resistance, the voltage drops, as a result more current is demanded and the connection gets hot which causes the surfaces to oxidize, around and around we go.

Hey, witz, if you feel so strongly about these, what do YOU use?

 

[emergpa1]

Regarding AC circuits, I found that when it rained hard, i had a leak from an instrument mounted in the starboard (bulkhead or hood?) of the cockpit. The rain would run right over my ac fuse box and across the receptacle over my galley sink. If I would have been in the boat with a hard rain, and would have used the sink, I would have been killed most likely.
.........At least it would have been a clean kill! ........
I sealed the leak by replacing the old nonfunctioning instrument (picture at left) with a cover, and decided to delete all AC circuits except the one receptacle in the galley and my battery charger under the gangway. That way I can keep a close eye on that most dangerous circuit. The " Keep it simple" principle. I am respectful of AC circuits on a sailboat as old as mine.
When I rewired the DC i bought a ratched crimper and stripper (picture in middle). I probably did not do perfect work, but I did my best. I sealed all connections with heat shrink and then liquid tape.
Keith

 

[Ross]

Regarding AC circuits, I found that when it rained hard, i had a leak from an instrument mounted in the starboard (bulkhead or hood?) of the cockpit. The rain would run right over my ac fuse box and across the receptacle over my galley sink. If I would have been in the boat with a hard rain, and would have used the sink, I would have been killed most likely.
.........At least it would have been a clean kill! ........
I sealed the leak by replacing the old nonfunctioning instrument (picture at left) with a cover, and decided to delete all AC circuits except the one receptacle in the galley and my battery charger under the gangway. That way I can keep a close eye on that most dangerous circuit. The " Keep it simple" principle. I am respectful of AC circuits on a sailboat as old as mine.
When I rewired the DC i bought a ratched crimper and stripper (picture in middle). I probably did not do perfect work, but I did my best. I sealed all connections with heat shrink and then liquid tape.
Keith

The best argument for installing GFCI outlets.

 

[Roger Long]

I have found more problems over the years with crimp connections.

Are you talking about the Ancor connections with the heat shrink tubing? The high end builder of my research vessels and other multi million dollar craft uses them. In fact, that's where I learned about them. If you do them right, they are look about as watertight as the original wire.

 

[Witzend]

I am very fortunate to have an endless supply of mil-spec hardware from taking over a division of Lockheed that manufactures Rolm Mil-Spec computers back in 1998.
If I need to make a number of new connections I will use Bendix mil-spec connectors with gold plated pins with the prober Daniels crimper. If I need to replace a single existing crimp connector I will first tin the wire (remember the crimp connector is also tinned copper). It's not the solder that creeps Maine. Tin and lead do not flow at room temps, it's the incorrect use of acid or rosin based soldering paste needed to clean oxidation your talking about and then not cleaning the paste off.

My procedure for making a connection:
I realize I have tools and materials and skills that most people will not generally have access to, but Stu you asked.
1) Strip the wire using a thermal stripper (normally used with Teflon coated wire)
The vinyl will stink a bit if the temp is too high, but It will not nick the wire.
2) Tin the wire using 60/40 thin strand Kester rosin based solder, making sure you don't flow the solder past where the insulation starts. If it will not tin than it is too badly oxidized for a mechanical connection as well, replace the wire if possible.
3) Slide up the wire a piece of properly sized clear shrink tubing (far enough to not be exposed to heat during the final solder) to be shrunk by heat in the last step of this procedure. Depending on the difference in the size of the connector and size of the wire you may want to use 2 different dia. of tubing one inside the other to accommodate the size difference, this way you will ensure a tight seal and help prevent flex metal fatigue.
4) Using a properly sized crimp connector that has no plastic cover, insert the wire all the way into the sleeve and a little more and then crimp the wire. Make sure you are sizing the tool correctly and have the tool produce the dimple on the top side in the center.
5) Reheat while adding a little more solder. Be careful not to heat too much or add too much solder.
6) Clean the connector with carbon tetrachloride, or another volatile de-greaser, paying particular attention to the area where the tin stops and wire insulation starts. You may need to un twist the wire strands a bit to make sure the degreaser cleans between the strands.
7) Make the connection to the mating connector.
8) Apply a small amount of HumiSeal (an acrylic based mil-spec conformal coating) completely coating the connector and let stand 1 hour.
9) Slide the heat shrink all the way up the crimped area of the connector and heat with a heat gun until it is shrunk and formed around evenly.

I'm waiting to be abused by anyone who says "don't use solder". I don't agree!! Solder is used in all of the electronics on your boat, and having a chemical bond has a much lower resistance connection and is less likely to corrode if cleaned and sealed properly than having a mechanical bond.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks, witz

Very good description. One of our C34 colleagues uses solder and crimps and swears by the longevity of all of his connections.

 

[Maine Sail]

Witz,

No one should fault that method as you have both crimped and soldered PROPERLY. Properly is the key word! The reason solder is verboten on boats is not the fact that it won't work, when properly crimped, soldered and strain relieved, but rather that perhaps 99.5% of the boaters out there have no clue how to do this properly. You are in that .5% who does. Hell perhaps 95% of boaters don't know how to crimp properly. Even "professionals" sometimes don't know how to crimp properly, as evidenced by the refrigeration crimp that was made on the wrong side of the connector, and with the wrong tool for the connector.

Nearly every solder joint I have come across on boats, lots of them over the years, has been improperly done which lends further creedence to the ABYC standards that suggest that solder not be used unless there is also a mechanical bond eg: crimp.. The PO of my boat was an EE and still messed this stuff up in a bad way. just because he was an EE does not mean he knew how to solder. The solder creep you see above was because this was done improperly and the solder creeped up the wire because it was heated beyond the insulation or where the terminal will be enough sot hat the soldered continued to flow beyond where it should have. The outer strands were ok, for some reason, but the solder crept up the inner stranding causing a hard spot. I suspect the outer strands flexing around the hard inner lump cause the fractures? I tried to peel them away somewhat to show the inner hard lump of solid wire. You are right of course that solder does not "creep" at room temp, obviously, it does however creep during a bad or improper application as I have witnessed many times. and as what happened to the termination above.

A well made adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connection will last many, many years and done correctly will be 100% water tight, no chlorine atoms. I have yet to see one I've made go bad.

My buddy is the customer service manager for a big luxury jet company. He runs a massive facility in Arizona where maintenance, warranty work etc. is performed. Nearly every connection is a crimp. Though these crimps are different than the ones I make with a hand tool they are still crimps, just done with a very, very expensive machine. Jets rely on them so I am comfortable with them on my own boat, and more comfortable with them when I know I was the one to have made them.

Even cheaper open style crimps can last for years, as evidenced by the many 30 year old ones on our boat, and the many others I have worked on, that are still working fine. I still won't use open style crimp connectors on my boat even with tinned wire. I also won't solder becuse I can admit that I just don't have the skill or time necessary to do it properly. Could I learn and become proficient with this? Sure, but a well made crimp, with the right tools is one that will last a good long time, pass the needed current, and be strong. I don't have hundreds of extra hours to do the type of connection you talk about, perhaps when I retire, but when my re-wire will have hundreds of crimps, I will crimp and heat shrink.

The adhesive lined terminals are certainly more expensive but in the whole scheme it will cost me about $55.00 +/- more, on a full re-wire, to use the adhesive lined crimp connectors. Considering this will run me over 2k, with free labor, the extra $55.00 is worth it to me in the long run.

 

[Witzend]

Yea, the crimp is done in manufacturing environment for speed of assembly, and if you need to do you entire boat you will be forever getting it done using my procedure. I use this procedure for repairs onezy twozy.

 

[kloudie1]

Witzend.. ! Man the old Navy Chief that taught me how to do that in electronics school many years ago would be proud.. That is the right way ! ( I have to admit that I don't do it that way except in wet locations).. EE school teaches the science/physics of why ya want a great connection, it does not normally teach how to make one !

 

[Witzend]

I from time to time I still repair these Rolm and Data General computers in various Navy programs, Tomahawk Cruise Missile, Trident, SLQ-32, -Air Force, ALCS, Mutes, Minii Mutes, AN/MSQ-T43, but I'm slowly becoming a fossil.

 

[atom]

Witzend,
May I congratulate you on your representation of the proper way to attach wire ends.
I find it interesting that in his third picture, Maine Sail attributed the evident heat and discoloration to an inadequately sized conductor. That same type terminal, attached using the methods you describe would not have shown the stated inadequacies. What Mains Sail is actually showing us is the heat exhibited by a the resistance of an improperly crimped insulated connector. When using an insulated connector it is almost impossible to verify the true quality of the connection, if an uninsulated connector was used the quality of the crimp could then be visually qualified then heat shrink could be used to insulate the connection.
This is more an admonition of the quality of tool used than the type of connection methods utilized. If Maine Sail continues to use the type of crimping tool he described in his previous posts, with his evident attention to detail, he can expect to achieve results very nearly equal to your preferred regimen.
With the decreasing quality of crimping tools on the retail market, attention to the details becomes an increasingly important factor in any wiring project, whether done by a professional or a do-it-yourself boatowner.

Thanks,

 

[Maine Sail]

I find it interesting that in his third picture, Maine Sail attributed the evident heat and discoloration to an inadequately sized conductor.

Unfortunately what that photo did not show was badly over heated wire along the vast majority of its length. I would guess that the crimp was adequate for some time but due to bare copper, non sealed and 30 years of time in a humid environment, the termination suffered some resistance loss on top of the wire already being drastically under sized. I used that photo because it showed the heat better.

That same type terminal, attached using the methods you describe would not have shown the stated inadequacies.

I would agree, with properly sized wire. For the voltage drop required for that vane pump it really needed a 10 Ga wire not a 16 ga..

I have shown this before but a well made crimp, with the proper tools, is actually quite strong. This is a 10-12 butt connector holding all those anchors or the equivalent of the average sixth grader..(95 pounds)..

 

[atom]

Maine Sail,
I hope no offense was taken, we can all strive to attain your meticulous nature.

I have shown this before but a well made crimp, with the proper tools, is actually quite strong. This is a 10-12 butt connector holding all those anchors or the equivalent of the average sixth grader..(95 pounds)..

Key word there, proper tools. Attitude and skills can't hurt either.
Did you use the commercially available Anchor brand crimpers for that connection?
I know that in the past you have utilized the AMP brand (now TYCO) T head crimping tool. Certainly the Rolls-Royce of crimpers.

Thanks,

 

[Maine Sail]

Key word there, proper tools. Attitude and skills can't hurt either.
Did you use the commercially available Anchor brand crimpers for that connection?

Yes, I used the Ancor single ratchet crimper to support those anchors.

I know that in the past you have utilized the AMP brand (now TYCO) T head crimping tool. Certainly the Rolls-Royce of crimpers.

Thanks,

Yes, I own both the AMP 59250 (LINK) and the 59239-4 (LINK) aircraft grade crimpers. Had a buddy who worked in the aviation industry set me up with good deals on both. I was certainly not going to pay $1200.00 and $600.00 for these tools.. They are fabulous though!

I don't however use them for my "How To" stuff as 99.9% of boaters will never, ever own a set of the AMP crimpers, especially at $1202.95 and $595.94. Even used and un-calibrated most would throw up at the mere thought.. Mine were both used but had been factory calibrated.

Don't get me wrong I do still use my Ancor crimpers, especially the single crimp ratchet ones for heat shrink terminals. I would never leave my AMP crimpers on-board but I do with the Ancor ones...

59239-4 - For Yellow 10-12 Terminals ($595.00 new):

59250 - For Red & Blue Terminals ($1202.00 new):

For boats the Anchor crimpers are certainly sufficient. If you are an aviation mechanic you'll need these to make certifiable crimps.

 

[jibes138]

Anchors

Hey Mainsail,
I see you used a danforth, Rocna, and Spade to test your crimps. Can you comment on your choice of anchors and whether the Rocna is preferable over the lower priced Manson Supreme in this application? Did you leave out your CQR on purpose as not suitable for testing crimps or did you just abandon the CQR after it failed to dig into the hard packed testing location in your video?? Wouldn't it be easier to test the crimps with some scuba weights or a hunter force gauge?
Hope you don't mind the busting.
Your electrical work leaves me in awe. I've worked in Aerospace my entire career and I've seen electrical work on products and facilities, some good some pretty bad. You would be welcome in any of my operations for your quality of work and attention to detail.