Why are we terrified of soft decks?

[MrBill_FLL]

Lucky? That's like saying a skipper is lucky to have won a race. Or that you're lucky to not have core rot

I find it remarkably easy to avoid storms. "Storms" - that is, Beaufort force 10, or one step above a strong gale.

Anyone with a radio or internet can do it. I've been in windy, rough, miserable conditions more times than I can recount. It's part of the fun. Yet I'll never be caught in the danger of a storm. At least, I can guaranty that until I sail the Caribbean later in life.

Different areas have different weather.

You can not sail in Fla in the summer and not experience storms. They form daily with the heat of the day. and within 30 min. really.
& 50-60knts is not unusual. but 30knts bursts are more typical


-its like predicting fog in the NE.... yep, more than likely!




-those chain plates look substantial. probably bulkhead/wood rot

 

[Scott T-Bird]

IIRC, that SS chainplate was about 18 inches long, and 2.5 wide. It was thru-bolted to the bulkhead with 7 or 8 SS bolts. I think it was fine until the deck, and then the interior of the bulkhead got wet. Then it all pull straight up and out. Left a long gash in the bulkhead and a nice round hole in the deck.

I guess it looks to me like those are about 5 or 6 wood screws and not thru bolts. I guess I'm not seeing the plate that would be mating on the other side of the bulkhead. I'm also not seeing solid hunks of metal that would be sandwiching the deck with through bolts. It looks more like a strap that got pulled through the deck. It is a 25' boat with a pretty light mast section though ... not really made for sturdiness.

 

[Indysailor]

I guess it looks to me like those are about 5 or 6 wood screws and not thru bolts. I guess I'm not seeing the plate that would be mating on the other side of the bulkhead. I'm also not seeing solid hunks of metal that would be sandwiching the deck with through bolts. It looks more like a strap that got pulled through the deck. It is a 25' boat with a pretty light mast section though ... not really made for sturdiness.

They bolt through 1/2 inch bulkheads, sturdy enough to last a long time, but meant for protected sailing, certainly not very heavy weight. What you're seeing there is probably the most common problem with an Oday 23 if they're not well maintained.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I know we are diverting from the topic of soft decks and I agree that water the permeates the bulkheads because of water intrusion through the decks is certainly a problem, I'm not seeing a complete relationship with this particular example.

Unless something was removed before the photograph was taken, I am looking at an assembly that certainly has some weaknesses regardless. 1/2 inch plywood is certainly not made for sturdiness (about 2/3 the thickness of an adequate bulkhead). I don't see washers or nuts, or a backing strap, so are those really thru bolts or are they wood screws, which were made to tear out? If they are just nuts and small diameter washers, that isn't really kosher either, is it.

I understand that it is a smaller boat, not made for sturdiness, but that seems to be the issue, not springy decks. Actually, from your comment in a post above, it seems we are in agreement, Indy.

 

[higgs]

Rot will spread even after the original problem is resolved.

 

[cb32863]

I know we are diverting from the topic of soft decks and I agree that water the permeates the bulkheads because of water intrusion through the decks is certainly a problem, I'm not seeing a complete relationship with this particular example.

Unless something was removed before the photograph was taken, I am looking at an assembly that certainly has some weaknesses regardless. 1/2 inch plywood is certainly not made for sturdiness (about 2/3 the thickness of an adequate bulkhead). I don't see washers or nuts, or a backing strap, so are those really thru bolts or are they wood screws, which were made to tear out? If they are just nuts and small diameter washers, that isn't really kosher either, is it.

I understand that it is a smaller boat, not made for sturdiness, but that seems to be the issue, not springy decks. Actually, from your comment in a post above, it seems we are in agreement, Indy.

I have an O' Day 25 that I replaced the bulkheads on. The chain plates are as Jackdaw said, about 18" long and 2 or so inches wide. They are thru bolted, not wood screws. You seem to be forming a broad opinion on something with only a small photo as your basis. True, the O'Day is not a "blue water" boat made for crossing oceans. That is not what it was designed for. It was designed as a coastal cruiser/lake sailor.

 

[Skipper]

Different areas have different weather.

You can not sail in Fla in the summer and not experience storms. They form daily with the heat of the day. and within 30 min. really.
& 50-60knts is not unusual. but 30knts bursts are more typical

Valid point.

 

[Skipper]

I know we are diverting from the topic of soft decks and I agree that water the permeates the bulkheads because of water intrusion through the decks is certainly a problem, I'm not seeing a complete relationship with this particular example.

Unless something was removed before the photograph was taken, I am looking at an assembly that certainly has some weaknesses regardless. 1/2 inch plywood is certainly not made for sturdiness (about 2/3 the thickness of an adequate bulkhead). I don't see washers or nuts, or a backing strap, so are those really thru bolts or are they wood screws, which were made to tear out? If they are just nuts and small diameter washers, that isn't really kosher either, is it.

I understand that it is a smaller boat, not made for sturdiness, but that seems to be the issue, not springy decks. Actually, from your comment in a post above, it seems we are in agreement, Indy.

I like the details of this discussion. IE: Different boats will react differently to water intrusion.

My chainplates are attached to the hull via 6 substantial knees below the decks. The water would have to come down the chainplates. Thankfully it isn't. Even if it did, the chainplates are attached to the outside of the knees, which are glassed over and painted. That is, it looks impossible to rot the attachment. I'd be more worried about corrosion.

 

[jibes138]

I haven't seen another aspect of this problem discussed here. That is stress corrosion fracturing. I learned this the hard way. On a Catalina 25 the lower shrouds just attach to the deck with an eye bolt type arrangement. I was sailing one day and a lower shroud snapped, sounded like a gunshot. The eye bolt had broken in half, and examining the failure it was related to moisture intrusion in the deck causing corrosion at the root of the thread that was inside the deck and under high stress and wet. Looking at it under a microscope it had slowly corroded until the remaining area just couldn't take the stress and it snapped. Luckily I tacked quickly and didn't lose the rig but it taught a valuable lesson on the hazards of what you can't see hidden in that mush of rot inside a deck. Anywhere metal goes through or into a deck it should be a solid glass or epoxy area and it should be a through bolt or screw so if it leaks you will see the leak inside the boat. With a wood core the wood will absorb the water and you won't know you have a leak until it is a huge mess. I think Island Packet has the right idea and are coring their boats with some type of filled plastic resin, no wood at all. Might be a little heavier I don't really know but should be pretty bulletproof regarding water intrusion and delamination. Wood is cheap and easy to work with, not too hazardous environmentally, etc. So it is a good compromise for builders but it is not necessarily the best material for a core.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yes, broad opinions ...

I have an O' Day 25 that I replaced the bulkheads on. The chain plates are as Jackdaw said, about 18" long and 2 or so inches wide. They are thru bolted, not wood screws. You seem to be forming a broad opinion on something with only a small photo as your basis. True, the O'Day is not a "blue water" boat made for crossing oceans. That is not what it was designed for. It was designed as a coastal cruiser/lake sailor.

There is no need to take offense, CB ... I think we all form broad opinions with the information at hand. That's why I question what is shown in the photo. When you say thru-bolted, that means thru-bolted to what? What's on the other side.

Actually, this topic is near and dear to my heart. The attached photo shows my shroud fitting just in front of the areas underneath my windows that have soft decks. It's been a concern since I've had the boat, but the condition hasn't changed in all the years, other than I hope to have eliminated any further leaking.

The windows have a very cheap plastic frame and I anticipate replacing them with an aluminum-framed custom made product.

The photo of the interior shows the port side bulkhead which has been damaged by water intrusion through the shroud fitting. The dark staining shows the extent where water was in the wood. The interior hadn't been varnished before I varnished several years ago, and I was astonished that the moisture apparently was still in the wood. It never showed until after I varnished. Anyway, the bulkhead was damaged along the bottom where fasteners of wood to fiberglass where pretty meager looking to me. The bulkhead on the port side, 3/4" ply, had been flexing some and it was disturbing to me. So you can see that I reinforced the attachments with 3/4" strips of solid Ash, intended to look like trim, bolted thru the fiberglass to create a vice along the entire bottom of the bulkhead which has made it rock-solid, even though it looks like hell.

The chainplate is more than just a strap. It's at least 1/4" SS reinforced-webbed angle with the upper flange bolted thru to the part above deck, which is also a substantial hunk of metal. Then there are 12 bolts (3/8", I believe) thru the 3/4" ply to a another 1/4" thick plate on the other side.

The deck is sound around the shroud fitting and along the rail, so the springy decks don't really concern me. I re-bedded the shroud fitting which assures me that I'm no longer seeing water come thru to the inside. The bulkhead in between the speaker and the chainplate is weak though, so I am concerned about that. The next time I take the mast down to move the boat, I will replace the entire bulkhead with new wood.

I've put off the windows because of the expense ... and because of the windows, I've put off fixing the deck. At least I caulked them everywhere it looked like a source of water to keep it out temporarily until replacement. The new windows are going to be slightly larger than the old because the radius of aluminum can't be as tight as the plastic, so I look forward to repairing all of the core around the windows.

I put out a lot of money to re-power the boat last year, so the urgency to make her right everywhere else has really notched-up! How do you like my step-son's boat shoes!

 

[Jackdaw]

Scott,

I'm sure there was big flat washers on the other side of the bulkhead, which is common practice. As the load is in shear, not tension, if the materials are in good shape you could probably lift that boat by the chain plates.

My point in bringing this up is to point out to the OP that water getting into the boat is BAD. It's going to flow and wet other parts of the boat. Speaking of bad, so is structural wood in fiberglass boats. Bulkheads, compression posts, keel boxes. Etc. Dumb.

 

[Indysailor]

Scott, I'm more worried about your dock than the chainplates.
Jackdaw is correct, the usually configuration is bolts with washers. As you can imagine, water intruding through at the chainplates will soak the bulkheads in the vicinity of the bolts first, resulting in rot at the top and compromising the strength considerably. If maintained, these are not prone to failure that I know of.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Otoh ...

I think there is simply no other gift from nature quite so versatile, fabulous, and beautiful, all in one, as wood. One of my degrees from ISU is a B.S. Forestry-Wood Products. I never made it my career, but I certainly have admiration for those who make a living utilizing all that wood has to offer.

We diverge! Indy, that was taken in the aftermath of Hurricane Irene, 2 years ago. We had way more rain in that storm than for Sandy. Irene was extremely wet but not so windy for us. Sandy was almost dry, but very windy. The downed tree is from Sandy ... I had 2 others like it in the back yard. Healthy trees that just opened up a hole in the earth as the roots pulled out. The ground wasn't even particularly wet.

We had 3 freak storms within a one-year period, with massive power outages ... Irene, the Halloween snow storm with 1.5" of snow (went sailing the next day), and Sandy. We're hoping all is quite this year ... until December, then it can snow all it wants.

 

[Indysailor]

I hear ya.
Our marina, under water in 2011 attached.

Back to the question- I've been on a few boats with alarmingly spongy decks. As I indicated in an earlier post, it's not my preference because I like to keep the boat in good order and I don't mind the work much. But I think maybe Jack mentioned (or I'm paraphrasing) that it's not necessarily the spongy deck, but what it represents, namely an issue that's not going to get better and will eventually cause bigger problems. On the boat I mentioned, owned by a friend, I must say I don't want to sail on it even though we're on a lake. It just seemed to me that an afternoon on his boat would probably end up being full of things not going smoothly. I mean, if he doesn't care to deal with maintenance issues, what else is wrong with his boat? So, maybe it's not that we're terrified of soft decks, but rather that they are a harbinger of other things.

 

[Ross]

During hurricane Sandy my boat tore the cleat from the dock completely out by the port side aft mooring line.

 

[Skipper]

....maybe it's not that we're terrified of soft decks, but rather that they are a harbinger of other things.

Yep.