Who is at fault

[Witzend]

I think the sailboarder screwed up here with indecision, but it would sure be nice to hear the sailboarder's side of the story.
FYI Windsurfing and Sailboarding are two very different versions of the same sport. The former requires much more skill and usually involves waves.

 

[bobby]

Wake riders and daredevils

Think they are a percentage of population that try to take advantage of your varnable situation and hide behind the the rule of law. Not witnessing the event, it sounds like such a case. I have seen some colleagues use the water canon or water ballons to throw at such sailboarder and the dare devil likes to ward possible collsions from such offenders.
Keep a bucket of water balloons at the ready. even your inexperienced sailors will lauch a few if the need arises.:naughty:

 

[jibes138]

In the case of a kite boarder I have often seen them airborn meaning quite high off the water and for an extended duration. In this case what are the collision avoidance rules with a kite board that is airborn? Is there a rule regarding sailboats and airplanes? I know a seaplane has specific rules but not sure about an airplane??
So is a kite board a "vessel" or "boat" or not? If not what rules apply?

 

[letterman]

from the Sherriffs Department in Couer D'Alene:
[FONT=&quot]In the Inland Rules to Navigation, the overtaking vessel is the give way vessel which was the situation with the sailboarder vs Osprey. This rule applies generally to all vessels regardless of propulsion. IE: In a situation where a sailboat is overtaking a motor boat, the sailboat is the give way boat and the motor boat is the “stand on” vessel. Mayer was cited for negligent operation due to his close proximity to the cruise boat and his statements regarding purposely attempting to pass and cut in front of the cruise boat. The captain of the Osprey took action to avoid a collision once she observed the sailboard, but was in violation for not maintaining a safe lookout (or designating one of the crew to act as a lookout.) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In your situation described below, the degree (of angle) of the approaching sailboarder is critical. Based on your description, the sailboarder was approaching on your SB side. This is a crossing situation (Rule 15) if the sailboarder is from 0 to 112.5 degrees and your vessel is the give way vessel. If the sailboard was approaching your vessel from an angle greater than 112.5 degrees, then it changes from a crossing situation to an overtaking situation in which you’d be the stand on vessel regardless of your propulsion. (Rule 13)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Either way, Rule 8 of the Rules of Navigation states that regardless of which vessel has the right of way, both are required to “take action to avoid a collision.”[/FONT]

 

[letterman]

The end

The sailboarder was about 22 degrees in front of my beam at the point where he decided to alter his course, about 30 feet off my starboard side.
I now know a LOT more about sailboarders and their capabilities. Therefore I believe I was at fault and should have altered course when he was about 80 feet away. Plenty of time to go behind him. Why I didn't do that I don't know, but I was scared as hell when he closed in, but by then it was too late for me to maneuver being a cutaway full keel.
In previous encounters with sailboarders, the sailboarders attacked me and somehow I knew it. Their mannerisms screamed Pro Boarder as opposed to this guy that didn't. My guess is they were after my little wake to jump it I suppose. Or they just wanted to get as close as possible, like playing chicken.
Thanks a lot for the info. Best read in a long time for me and it helped me a lot.

 

[Winkfish]

[FONT=&quot]In your situation described below, the degree (of angle) of the approaching sailboarder is critical. Based on your description, the sailboarder was approaching on your SB side. This is a crossing situation (Rule 15) if the sailboarder is from 0 to 112.5 degrees and your vessel is the give way vessel. If the sailboard was approaching your vessel from an angle greater than 112.5 degrees, then it changes from a crossing situation to an overtaking situation in which you’d be the stand on vessel regardless of your propulsion. (Rule 13)[/FONT]

With all due respect to the sheriff, Rule 15 ONLY applies when 2 POWER_DRIVEN vessels are crossing. Those are the first words of the rule. With a power driven vs a sailing vessel situation, Rule 18 applies, and the power-driven vessel must give way to the sailing vessel, UNLESS Rule 13 applies, in which case the overtaking vessel must give way to the vessel being overtaken, regardless of the method of propulsion.

 

[jimmyb]

This is getting confusing. any way a diagram of the original incident could be posted so angles of attack could more clearly explain. sounds like poor judgement on behalf of the sailboarder but that might not stand the test of ROW.

 

[ILikeRust]

1. As the "Stand On" vessel the sailboarder has the responsibility to NOT alter his course.
2. As the "Give Way" vessel it is your responsibility to change course to avoid the collision. You did slow down which was the right thing to do.

I was going to make the same point - as the stand on vessel, the sailboard had the DUTY to maintain speed and heading - which he, for some strange and unknown reason, chose not to. You had the duty to alter course or speed to prevent a collision, which you did. And when all else fails, both parties have the duty to avoid a collision. Seems to me he took a turn and drove himself into the back of your boat.

As to who actually would be found at fault - well, the main way to find that out is through litigation and have the facts adjudicated. Something most people really would rather not go through.

 

[Ross]

All of this presumes that both vessels are maintaining a steady course. If one or both vessels are maneuvering in other than a steady course they are both obliged to pay attention to all of the traffic and keep clear.

 

[Steve Christensen]

CG was right...you were at fault.

Sailboarder was NOT stand-on...he was crossing you. The vessel being passed or crossed is the "Stand-on" vessel...and the stand-on vessel, regardless of whether power or sail, is obligated to maintain course and speed till the vessel that's doing the passing or crossing is well clear of it.

So you should not have slowed down, or done anything else until/unless it became necessary to take immediate evasive action to avoid a collision, which wasn't the case. By slowing down, you caused him to miscalculate how far to go behind you, which resulted in him hitting you.

However, I'd say there's some shared responsibility, 'cuz he needed to pick a course and stay with it, but didn't. So if I were on a jury, I'd vote that you were 60% at fault, he was 40%.

Did anybody ever figure out what Peggy meant by this? Maybe she just didn't understand the original situation, but this comment sure doesn't make any sense, and doesn't seem supported by any part of the rules. ("...the boat being crossed..."??)

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Times are changing, rardi ...

Back in the day, I would do whatever it takes to get on my board on a windy day. We don't have the consistency that you have on SF Bay, so we just had to be flexible with our work schedule (not that employers had ANY understanding!). I think the only days you could count on for wind were Easter, Mother's Day, or any other day when family or work obligations cause a conflict! Thanksgiving was often a good time for wind if you could take the cold.

The funny thing is that when I got on the Jersey Parkway back in those days to drive down to Seaside Park on a weekday afternoon, my favorite windsurfing hole, I would see literally dozens of fellow fanatics with boards on the roof and there was a regular community blasting back and forth on Barnegat Bay or out on the surf side. I frequently drive the Parkway these days and very rarely see a sailboard on the roof of car, van or SUV like it was in the 90's. I assume that at least half the hardcore windsurfers are kite sailing now and their equipment may be packed on the inside, but I think the older generation has grown up and become more worried about employment and there is no younger generation following suit.

The younger crowd, at least in NJ, appears to me to be a collective bunch of geeks who are far more interested in what an I Phone or I Pad can do than doing anything interesting outdoors. I know that my kids have left the state to pursue adventures ... they can't even imagine life in NJ anymore, it is so alien to them.

 

[SailArkansas]

OK....the only truly safe way to handle this scenario was for the boat under power to change course and try to cross behind the sailboard giving the greatest clearance that speed/distance will allow. On the lake that I sail on I assume that no one knows anything about the rules as I have been run down and almost run over while under sail by power boats more times than I care to recall. I totally avoid the whole place on weekends. I actually had a captain of a powerboat stop dead in the water to allow me to cross about a month back as I was altering coarse to swing in behind him. God love him!

 

[kenn]

Another windsurfer turned sailboat owner chiming in... This situation sounds alot like situations I've experienced or seen.

Question - did the incidence occur in a restricted or marked channel, like a harbour entrance?

Yes, as per CG comment, the motoring boat would be primarily responsible for a collision. I believe the worst action was for the motoring vessel to simply reduce speed at the last minute, because it's not an obvious move, and it doesn't take into account the probability that the windsurfer had your current course and speed already factored in.

In any event, regardless of actions, a windsurfer is much more maneuverable and can stop sooner, so I'd expect just about any yacht - windurfer collision to be avoidable (by the sailor of the windsurfer) unless it's a case of a boat hitting a depowered windsurfer. The simple bump you mention attests to this. It was not much more than an inconvenience to the windsurfer.

From my experience on both types of vessels, it's especially hard for boaters to judge a windsurfer's course and speed, and an early course alteration is the best action to take, if action is necessary.

 

[Ross]

Jet skis, wind surfers, kite boarders quite simply do not maintain predictable courses therefore knowing the proper proceedure for avoiding or evading them is quite impossible. Rather like trying to avoid a bird or a large insect while walking

 

[Winkfish]

Jet skis, wind surfers, kite boarders quite simply do not maintain predictable courses therefore knowing the proper proceedure for avoiding or evading them is quite impossible. Rather like trying to avoid a bird or a large insect while walking

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

 

[JohnShannon]

So it would seem that the move to grant right of way, slowing down, was not the right move. Because not obvious to the other vessel. The windsurfer in fact hit your boat where you wouldn't have been if you had maintained speed. He was perhaps attempting to avoid you after not seeing you make any move to grant him the right of way. Or he was just buzzing you and got caught out when you slowed down.

 

[Joe]

Like I said...... you must make your intentions known in plenty of time for the other party to understand and react...... both the sailboat and the windsurfer waited too long before they both reacted.... voila! a collision. You can argue about stand on, give way, till the cows come home but you can never assume that the other guy knows what he's doing... so you need to LET HIM KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. That's why you carry an air horn in a crowded seaway. That's why you give plenty of notice. So no matter what col regs say or any of that other legalese... common sense must prevail......

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Ross hit the nail on the head ....

It's useless trying to predict the intention. But common sense also tells me as a windsurfer that it is stupid to pass closely in front of any powerboat or sailboat regardless of having a stand-on status. I would always aim at the stern or behind and pass underneath no matter what, unless I was passing far ahead at a nice high rate of speed and with a steady wind that won't let me down. Do you think I'm going to take a chance that somebody on a boat isn't watching while I sit helpless in the water after taking a spill, no matter what my confidence level is?

One of the Mecca's of windsurfing is the Columbia River Gorge, where high winds, and extreeeme sailing conditions literally collide with huge barges on downhill runs to Portland. How many windsurfers do you think challenge the navigation regs when it comes to these confrontations and live long to tell of it!

 

[Witzend]

Second that Scott!!!

 

[txtowman]

any vessel that turns toward you or your course when 100 yards away would not be considered to have right of way. 300 feet at 6 knots in a 40 foot sailboat regardless of propulsion, is not much room to maneuver or avoid a faster vessel. thats like dodging a rice rocket in an 18 wheeler, which I do on a daily basis. in my opinion the saildoarder should have taken measures to avoid you by:

tacking sooner or later to allow more room to maneuver.

bearing off in either direction

totally avoiding ANY other traffic until he could maneuver his vessel better.

This is just my opinion, and many jet skiers have died doing stupid moves near other vessels. Including one who ran into Gloria Estefan in florida.

he also could have hove to in order to avoid the collision.