Who is at fault
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The sailboarder never calucalted anything in my opinion. If he would have, he would have aimed for my stern. This was a slow motion accident. The highest speed was probably 10 mph (his). With 100 yards (he just made a reverse turn at this point) I suppose one of us should have done something different. Behind him was a breakwater. And he was coming at me at an angle, not at 90 degrees. That made me think he should have been able to go behind me. Instead he tried to go in front of me. That was evident ONLY at about 40 to 50 feet away when he veered to his right. And I said "Oh poop". I then backed down and tried to figure out which way to go. If I went behind him and he again changed direction I might have hit him head on. So I kept my course. At about 30 feet he decided he wasn't going to make it and aimed for my aft end. I am not sure a sailboard could sail downwind, but had he done that we would have missed and he would have passed aside me at 10 to 15 feet. Instead he went at an angle and hit my aft end.
Tho52mas,
This is still a power over sail situation, power give way sail stand on. Something should have been done by give way well in advance of 30-50 feet that would have made it very clear to the sailboard what your intentions were, perhaps a speed change was not enough.
I find it hard to comprehend how you feel you should have held your course acting as a stand on vessel and forced the sailboard to become give way? As I have read this it seems to be a simple crossing situation between power & sail.
Both parties always have the duty to avoid collision but you as the more maneuverable vessel, and power vessel were at duty to give way in this situation unless there is some critical piece you've left out like he was coming from more than 22.5 degrees abaft of your beam. It sounded to me from your description that he was coming from before the beam not aft of it?
Rick,
I don't think that has been clearly decided? Follow me though my interpretations of Tho52mas's writings..
If Tho52mas was heading into the wind with a sailboard off his "starboard side" and the sailboard was on a "starboard tack" there is little possibility that I can see that this was an overtaking situation, if, as he mentioned, he was "watching it", though anything is possible.
As written, and explained, I feel this was laid out as a crossing situation where the sailboard was sail or stand on in a crossing. At least as I read it assuming the sailboard was coming from in front of 22.5 degrees abaft of the beam.
tho52mas said:
If this had happened behind him, as Rule 13 / overtaking, he would have had to turn from front facing to see all this happening and would have had to remain turned to see what was going on. Also he clearly stated "off my starboard side" not "off my stern or quarter".tho52mas said:
Overtaking is considered within and arc of 22.5 degrees abaft of the beam. Crossing is anything in front of that.
RULE 13
OVERTAKING
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. OVERTAKING
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
Perhaps Tho52mas can clarify where the "angle" was from, forward of the beam or abaft of the beam? He stated it was not 90 degrees and it sounded to me like if he watched it and saw it happening it was fore of the beam not aft of it?
Possible Complication
On reading Maine Sail's post, I noted something from the OP. The sailboard (stand on boat) TURNED within 100 yards of the OP. Might this be considered a failure to act as the rules say and "Stand On"? This might complicate apportionment of blame, perhaps depending upon whether the turn was forced somehow (by the wind) or was just a choice the wind surfer made, perhaps by a "failure to maintain watch".
My main lesson from this thread is to not let a much faster boat get close if at all possible. Regardless of "right of way" (OK, stand on/give way), a collision is NO FUN. Turning to avoid collision EARLY seems to be a way to reduce the risks that come with sharing the water with unpredictable craft (maybe that is any craft?), including wind-bound sailboards and tubers making wild "S" curves while the helmsman looks backwards...
OC
On reading Maine Sail's post, I noted something from the OP. The sailboard (stand on boat) TURNED within 100 yards of the OP. Might this be considered a failure to act as the rules say and "Stand On"? This might complicate apportionment of blame, perhaps depending upon whether the turn was forced somehow (by the wind) or was just a choice the wind surfer made, perhaps by a "failure to maintain watch".
My main lesson from this thread is to not let a much faster boat get close if at all possible. Regardless of "right of way" (OK, stand on/give way), a collision is NO FUN. Turning to avoid collision EARLY seems to be a way to reduce the risks that come with sharing the water with unpredictable craft (maybe that is any craft?), including wind-bound sailboards and tubers making wild "S" curves while the helmsman looks backwards...
OC
Personally, I find this thread very interesting and hope that it'll end with something usefully conclusive.
The only distraction I see is that some of the respondents are adding twists not included in the OP.
Paul
The only distraction I see is that some of the respondents are adding twists not included in the OP.
Paul
Chapter and verse on the rules is getting carried away here.
As most windsurfers will realize, stand-on & give-way doesn't really have that much meaning in most encounters between power driven boats and a windsurfer. The last thing a windsurfer (most sane ones anyway
) wants to do is fall into the water right in front of a power driven boat, even if the boat is going slow.
What is becoming clear is that you encountered a learner on a long board who wasn't going at a planing speed. An experienced windsurfer on a short board, fully powered-up in a strong wind is very fast and highly maneuverable and would have no problem doing circles around a slow moving sailboat under power. But this doesn't appear to be the case.
It sounds like you encountered a guy who may have been struggling just to keep his balance on the board. If he is sailing along slowly, in conditions where the wave action may have been confused (breakwater behind him, boats crossing in front of him), he may have been sailing in the only direction where he felt comfortable standing on his board. In light wind he can't make his way upwind very easily and besides he doesn't want to cross in front of you because there is a significant risk that he can fall off at just the wrong time. He can't turn downwind very easily because he loses power in the sail and the board becomes even less stable. And it is difficult to stop and just bob in the water while trying to maintain balance (but that wouldn't be the worst thing because he could just climb back on and uphaul and sail away once you were clear). He probably intended to maintain a collision course until the very last instant and then turn momentarily downwind to clear your stern. He may have even been uncertain about what he wanted to do earlier in the encounter -but his reaction (by sarcastically saying 'thanks') seems to indicate that his intention was to turn downwind at the last instant to clear your stern and you made it more difficult by slowing down).
I know from experience that when on a windsurfer, you can get comfortable with making the maneuver to clear close by the stern. It is just about timing, and it makes no difference if you clear the stern of a sailboat by 10' or 100' as long as the sailboat just keeps moving in the same direction at the same speed.
What most don't realize, though, is that there are circumstances when a windsurfer is underpowered (or just learing) when the only point of sail that is comfortable is essentially a close or beam reach ... bearing off downwind can be very tricky, due to loss of power and the board becomes far less stable so the windsurfer probably just didn't want to change his course until he had to because bearing off downwind early-on may have been unstable for him. Regardless of him technically being a sailing craft and having stand-on status, I am sure that he didn't want to pass your bow because of the chance that he could fall right in front of you. In that circumstance, he has to rely on you paying attention enough not to run him over, even if you are going slow.
A windsurfer isn't something that you just turn the ignition and point the board in a direction. It actually has a surprisingly steep learning curve, and it requires a well-developed sense of balance, agility and strength applied in the most efficient way. Many (or even most) people who even try to learn give up in frustration because of the degree of difficulty. Expecting a learner to react strictly in regard to the rules of navigation is asking too much in some circumstances - more from an athletic standpoint than a knowledge standpoint. Some leeway has to be expected.
As most windsurfers will realize, stand-on & give-way doesn't really have that much meaning in most encounters between power driven boats and a windsurfer. The last thing a windsurfer (most sane ones anyway
) wants to do is fall into the water right in front of a power driven boat, even if the boat is going slow.What is becoming clear is that you encountered a learner on a long board who wasn't going at a planing speed. An experienced windsurfer on a short board, fully powered-up in a strong wind is very fast and highly maneuverable and would have no problem doing circles around a slow moving sailboat under power. But this doesn't appear to be the case.
It sounds like you encountered a guy who may have been struggling just to keep his balance on the board. If he is sailing along slowly, in conditions where the wave action may have been confused (breakwater behind him, boats crossing in front of him), he may have been sailing in the only direction where he felt comfortable standing on his board. In light wind he can't make his way upwind very easily and besides he doesn't want to cross in front of you because there is a significant risk that he can fall off at just the wrong time. He can't turn downwind very easily because he loses power in the sail and the board becomes even less stable. And it is difficult to stop and just bob in the water while trying to maintain balance (but that wouldn't be the worst thing because he could just climb back on and uphaul and sail away once you were clear). He probably intended to maintain a collision course until the very last instant and then turn momentarily downwind to clear your stern. He may have even been uncertain about what he wanted to do earlier in the encounter -but his reaction (by sarcastically saying 'thanks') seems to indicate that his intention was to turn downwind at the last instant to clear your stern and you made it more difficult by slowing down).
I know from experience that when on a windsurfer, you can get comfortable with making the maneuver to clear close by the stern. It is just about timing, and it makes no difference if you clear the stern of a sailboat by 10' or 100' as long as the sailboat just keeps moving in the same direction at the same speed.
What most don't realize, though, is that there are circumstances when a windsurfer is underpowered (or just learing) when the only point of sail that is comfortable is essentially a close or beam reach ... bearing off downwind can be very tricky, due to loss of power and the board becomes far less stable so the windsurfer probably just didn't want to change his course until he had to because bearing off downwind early-on may have been unstable for him. Regardless of him technically being a sailing craft and having stand-on status, I am sure that he didn't want to pass your bow because of the chance that he could fall right in front of you. In that circumstance, he has to rely on you paying attention enough not to run him over, even if you are going slow.
A windsurfer isn't something that you just turn the ignition and point the board in a direction. It actually has a surprisingly steep learning curve, and it requires a well-developed sense of balance, agility and strength applied in the most efficient way. Many (or even most) people who even try to learn give up in frustration because of the degree of difficulty. Expecting a learner to react strictly in regard to the rules of navigation is asking too much in some circumstances - more from an athletic standpoint than a knowledge standpoint. Some leeway has to be expected.
Re: Chapter and verse on the rules is getting carried away here.
Aren't wind surfers and skate boarders of a similar breed. They play wherever they can and dodge people and traffic because it interrupts their fun to run into anything.
Aren't wind surfers and skate boarders of a similar breed. They play wherever they can and dodge people and traffic because it interrupts their fun to run into anything.
First of all, the crossing rule only applies to 2 vessels under power. Secondly, the "boat being crossed" makes no sense, as the problem arises when the boats are on collision course, i.e. one will NOT cross the other, hence the problem. Third, the rule is that in the crossing (collision) situation, the boat to starboard has the right of way. An easy way to remember is, if you are looking at the other boat, do you see his RED port light, you have to "stop" (give way). If you see his green starboard light, you can "go" (you have the right of way).
But again, the crossing rule only applies to two boats under power.
With two sailboats, the starboard tack boat has right of way over the port tack boat. If both are on the same tack, the leeward boat has the right of way, the windward boat has to give way.
Great post Scott. I had a group of young kids learning to sailboard when I was pulling anchor. A young lady instructor followed them around in a small tender. I kept a good distance even circled to give them time to pass. They are fun to watch.
Scott,
That was an excellent post! It is very helpfull to understand the dynamics involved with the windsurfer and his vehicle. I have never sailed one but have watched them various places for long periods and you have described their learning curve and its results to a T. Again, its after the fact here but this should be very usefull info for us all when encountering boarders in the future. The fact that yes they are very manuverable is quickly canceled out by the difficulties of just keeping upright in all situations. If I find a boarder crossing in front of me I have been remlinded that it is very possible he could be down in seconds. Wise to keep pointed behind him. Im not sure what you do if he uncontrollably comes at you broadside at speeds greater than you can get out of his way. Even if you are under power.
jimmyb
That was an excellent post! It is very helpfull to understand the dynamics involved with the windsurfer and his vehicle. I have never sailed one but have watched them various places for long periods and you have described their learning curve and its results to a T. Again, its after the fact here but this should be very usefull info for us all when encountering boarders in the future. The fact that yes they are very manuverable is quickly canceled out by the difficulties of just keeping upright in all situations. If I find a boarder crossing in front of me I have been remlinded that it is very possible he could be down in seconds. Wise to keep pointed behind him. Im not sure what you do if he uncontrollably comes at you broadside at speeds greater than you can get out of his way. Even if you are under power.
jimmyb
What About Kite Boarders and Nav Regs?
Let's expand on the type of recreational craft in the same general category: What about and kiteboarders or kitesurfers as per the picture below?
I've been buzzed by these folks where they are on my upwind side and the kite looks to be directly above my mast as they pass. So if you take action to avoid the boarder, be careful that the course change doesn't result in the line getting tangled on your mast!
I sail a lot in the San Francisco Bay "slot". A poplular launching spot for sailboarders and kiteboarders of the advance/expert level is right adjacent at Crissey Field on the San Francisco side. Boarders who enter the water here aren't beginner/intermediates and they are generally moving very very I mean really really fast in the typical +20kt winds. Even though I might be the only boat around for 1/2 a mile, often they angle a course very close; I think mainly because they are looking for an object against which they can get another perspective of their speed. Or maybe they want to show off, and a boat in the middle of an otherwise empty bay is the only audience around. All I can do is keep my course as they approach, whether I'm technically the give-way vessel or not. This is especially true since often the boarders are in groups of two or more that can split to pass on both bow and stern. I don't resent this or get upset. Actually its thrilling to watch them and I know they are outdoor enthusiasts (maybe of an extreme variety) that are having a blast of a time.
Several years ago when I started sailing, the few times I did alter course (when I was the give-way vessel), the windsurfers would just change their angle to maintain the same originally intended close pass. So now I just keep my course.
Even though the nav rules may technically apply in case of a collision, out on the SF Bay when its boarder vs sailboat, all one can really do is hope that the windsurfer knows what he's doing and doesn't crash into you.
10-15 years ago when I commuted by bus across the Golden Gate bridge, I could look down and see every summer evening dozens of sailboarders zipping back and cross over the white caps in the slot between San Francisco and Marin. There aren't so many anymore.
Let's expand on the type of recreational craft in the same general category: What about and kiteboarders or kitesurfers as per the picture below?
I've been buzzed by these folks where they are on my upwind side and the kite looks to be directly above my mast as they pass. So if you take action to avoid the boarder, be careful that the course change doesn't result in the line getting tangled on your mast!
I sail a lot in the San Francisco Bay "slot". A poplular launching spot for sailboarders and kiteboarders of the advance/expert level is right adjacent at Crissey Field on the San Francisco side. Boarders who enter the water here aren't beginner/intermediates and they are generally moving very very I mean really really fast in the typical +20kt winds. Even though I might be the only boat around for 1/2 a mile, often they angle a course very close; I think mainly because they are looking for an object against which they can get another perspective of their speed. Or maybe they want to show off, and a boat in the middle of an otherwise empty bay is the only audience around. All I can do is keep my course as they approach, whether I'm technically the give-way vessel or not. This is especially true since often the boarders are in groups of two or more that can split to pass on both bow and stern. I don't resent this or get upset. Actually its thrilling to watch them and I know they are outdoor enthusiasts (maybe of an extreme variety) that are having a blast of a time.
Several years ago when I started sailing, the few times I did alter course (when I was the give-way vessel), the windsurfers would just change their angle to maintain the same originally intended close pass. So now I just keep my course.
Even though the nav rules may technically apply in case of a collision, out on the SF Bay when its boarder vs sailboat, all one can really do is hope that the windsurfer knows what he's doing and doesn't crash into you.
10-15 years ago when I commuted by bus across the Golden Gate bridge, I could look down and see every summer evening dozens of sailboarders zipping back and cross over the white caps in the slot between San Francisco and Marin. There aren't so many anymore.
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