Who is at fault
- Thread starter letterman
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From your description on top of you being under power he was crossing you from the starboard side another reason you are the give-way vessel. Was the sailboard also on starboard tack? This further reinforces his right of way.
I have many times given way when it is clear the other boater is not obeying the navigation rules. I concur you should have drastically altered course to leave no doubt about your intentions. You may want to go turn yourself in to the local authorities and throw yourself on the mercy of the courts :>).
I have many times given way when it is clear the other boater is not obeying the navigation rules. I concur you should have drastically altered course to leave no doubt about your intentions. You may want to go turn yourself in to the local authorities and throw yourself on the mercy of the courts :>).
I agree that the tack of the sailboard is irrelevant, but I was not the one motoring, only commenting on the OP's problem and question.
I noted how I might have handled it, based on the forum post. How to actually handle it can depend on factors hard to estimate from a post, such as how far the boats really were apart, actual course of the vessels and speed estimates.
For me, the key issue regarding what should have been done is whether a turn away, if made in time, alters the stand on/give way situation by making the sailboard the give way vessel BECAUSE the sailboard is then OVERTAKING the vessel under power. For this, I think it would be interesting to hear comments as to whether I have a possible point, or am full of horse waste.
OC
tich tor ang tesmur
Sorry, Old Cat. I misread who was posting what.
In my opinion, the give way boat (and I believe the motoring boat was the give way boat here) has to adjust course to let the other vessel keep the right of way. I don't believe you can change course in order to take the right of way from the stand-on boat. In other words, the proper maneuver would have been for the motoring boat to alter course to pass the stern of the sailboard, and it should have been a drastic enough course change to make clear to the sailboarder what the motoring boat was doing.
In my opinion, the give way boat (and I believe the motoring boat was the give way boat here) has to adjust course to let the other vessel keep the right of way. I don't believe you can change course in order to take the right of way from the stand-on boat. In other words, the proper maneuver would have been for the motoring boat to alter course to pass the stern of the sailboard, and it should have been a drastic enough course change to make clear to the sailboarder what the motoring boat was doing.
Whether I am sailing or motoring and another vessel is approaching and I am obliged to give way (unless restricted by draft) I always aim amidships with plenty of time. This allows both boats the opportunity to alter course.
In one race with a reef in front of me and on port tack I saw a beach cat also racing complete a tack at the reef and aim for my stern. At the last moment, the helmsman altered course and tried to go in front. We could not alter course because of the reef, we tried to tack (Alberg 35). The result was a cuatromaran after we hit them amidships. Split right down the middle. His sudden change of course did not give us ample, opportune time to avoid the collision. The cat was much softer than the reef. We won the protest.
In one race with a reef in front of me and on port tack I saw a beach cat also racing complete a tack at the reef and aim for my stern. At the last moment, the helmsman altered course and tried to go in front. We could not alter course because of the reef, we tried to tack (Alberg 35). The result was a cuatromaran after we hit them amidships. Split right down the middle. His sudden change of course did not give us ample, opportune time to avoid the collision. The cat was much softer than the reef. We won the protest.
You can argue the rules here till your blind, but from a sailboarder's view it wouldn't matter if he ends up getting run over and killed. Always go behind!! For his own safety he needed to give room based on where the vessel is, not where he thinks it will not be.
Good posts. The sailboarder was on a long board and appeared to be a rookie (but only from about 20 feet away. I'm a 37' sailboat so it was to late at that time to take that into account.
Recently there was a crash of a sailboarder and a 65' tourist boat in COEUR D'ALENE
http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/W...ruise-boat-on-Lake-Coeur-dAlene-98671884.html I wonder how that will turn out as it sounds very similar. I called the Sherrif's Department and they said to email them for results.
From what I saw on YOUTUBE with sailboarders, I was under the assumption they are highly maneuverable. I now know I was wrong.
Another item I assumed was that going 6 knots would have been slow enough for him to decide where to position himself. With the high wind I believe a small (16' to 20') sailboat would have blown by in front of me with plenty of room to spare. A friend did circles around me on his 27' Catalina in similar winds a few years ago. I just assumed a sailboarder was a fast sailboat, especially being blown away by the speeds reached by the boaders on the St. Johns river in Florida.
Recently there was a crash of a sailboarder and a 65' tourist boat in COEUR D'ALENE
http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/W...ruise-boat-on-Lake-Coeur-dAlene-98671884.html I wonder how that will turn out as it sounds very similar. I called the Sherrif's Department and they said to email them for results.
From what I saw on YOUTUBE with sailboarders, I was under the assumption they are highly maneuverable. I now know I was wrong.
Another item I assumed was that going 6 knots would have been slow enough for him to decide where to position himself. With the high wind I believe a small (16' to 20') sailboat would have blown by in front of me with plenty of room to spare. A friend did circles around me on his 27' Catalina in similar winds a few years ago. I just assumed a sailboarder was a fast sailboat, especially being blown away by the speeds reached by the boaders on the St. Johns river in Florida.
The sailboarder gauged your speed and calculated that he would clear your stern without any problem. By slowing down you altered the equation and all of a sudden he could not clear you. Had you remained at a constant speed there would be no problem.
Same as when you calculate that you will enter traffic at a certain speed and the car in fron of you slows down and/or changes lanes. You knew what you were doing but the other car changed the equation.
Same as when you calculate that you will enter traffic at a certain speed and the car in fron of you slows down and/or changes lanes. You knew what you were doing but the other car changed the equation.
There are some pictures of a ~40 footer changing course to STB and t-boning the largest sailboat in the world in San Francisco Bay. The 40 footer was wrong even though he was on STB. I am sure that half of the world has seen those pictures.
For obvious safety reasons, you simply can not count on the other people will or will not do. One must allow a significant time buffer and this can not be accomplished by the sailboarder going in front. What would have happened itf the sailboat operator became confused about is speed control lever and pushed it the wrong way and speed up instead, collision and possible of serious injury.
Colregs?
When two power-driven vessels are
crossing so as to involve risk of collision,
the vessel which has the other on her
own starboard side shall keep out of
the way and shall, if the circumstances
of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead
of the other vessel.
Is there some other rule(s) which negate this? I assume that for sailboats the issue of starboard or port tack also enter here.
This was the first I'd heard this, so I went and looked at what I could find on the colregs. Here's what I found (rule 15):
When two power-driven vessels are
crossing so as to involve risk of collision,
the vessel which has the other on her
own starboard side shall keep out of
the way and shall, if the circumstances
of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead
of the other vessel.
Is there some other rule(s) which negate this? I assume that for sailboats the issue of starboard or port tack also enter here.
Starboard/port tack only applies to two vessels under sail...
See Rule 12.
Rule 15 doesn't have anything to do with this situation...it says that in a crossing situation, the boat coming from the right (starboard) does have ROW...which is no different from the rule on land that says the vehicle coming from the right has ROW at an intersection.
Regardless of whether a vessel is under sail or under power, the overtaken vessel has to be the stand--on vessel....'cuz suddenly changing the conditions that existed when crossing or passing began creates problems for the overtaking vessel. But actually that applies to BOTH vessels equally.
Which means that sail isn't always stand-on...another example, happened to me: I was hauling down the main channel of Lake Lanier at about 30 knots. Lake was like glass...not much wind...sailboat ahead maybe half a mile, a hundred yards to starboard and drifting to starboard. No problem ...I'd cross at least 100' behind him. Except he suddenly came about and headed straight for me when I was less than 100 yards from him...which produced the predictable "Oh $#!+" at my helm while executing an immediate 90 degree turn to port!
Even though I was power and he was sail, he was obligated to maintain course and speed till after I'd safely crossed behind him, and so was I...UNLESS he was so close to shore or a shoal that he had no choice. In that case it would have been up to me to be aware that he was about to have no choice but to come about and alter my own course in plenty of time to give him the room he'd need. But that wasn't the case here OR there.
The Rules that cover all this are 13-17...and ya gotta read 'em all to put together who's stand-on and who's give-way.
Btw...my sailing friends taught me early and well: always cross behind a sailboat, and always pass on the lee side.
See Rule 12.
Rule 15 doesn't have anything to do with this situation...it says that in a crossing situation, the boat coming from the right (starboard) does have ROW...which is no different from the rule on land that says the vehicle coming from the right has ROW at an intersection.
Regardless of whether a vessel is under sail or under power, the overtaken vessel has to be the stand--on vessel....'cuz suddenly changing the conditions that existed when crossing or passing began creates problems for the overtaking vessel. But actually that applies to BOTH vessels equally.
Which means that sail isn't always stand-on...another example, happened to me: I was hauling down the main channel of Lake Lanier at about 30 knots. Lake was like glass...not much wind...sailboat ahead maybe half a mile, a hundred yards to starboard and drifting to starboard. No problem ...I'd cross at least 100' behind him. Except he suddenly came about and headed straight for me when I was less than 100 yards from him...which produced the predictable "Oh $#!+" at my helm while executing an immediate 90 degree turn to port!
Even though I was power and he was sail, he was obligated to maintain course and speed till after I'd safely crossed behind him, and so was I...UNLESS he was so close to shore or a shoal that he had no choice. In that case it would have been up to me to be aware that he was about to have no choice but to come about and alter my own course in plenty of time to give him the room he'd need. But that wasn't the case here OR there.
The Rules that cover all this are 13-17...and ya gotta read 'em all to put together who's stand-on and who's give-way.
Btw...my sailing friends taught me early and well: always cross behind a sailboat, and always pass on the lee side.
In a crossing situation with a sailboat/sailboard the sailboat/sailboard is stand on and the power boat/sailboat under power only, is give way.
This was not an overtaking situation rule #13 and rules 9 & 10 did not apply in this situation...
Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:
(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
1 - a vessel not under command;
2 - a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
3 - a vessel engaged in fishing;
4 - a sailing vessel.
(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
1 - a vessel not under command;
2 - a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
3 - a vessel engaged in fishing.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of:
1 - a vessel not under command;
2 - a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.
After all is said and done are both vessels not compelled to do all they can to avoid collision regardless of the stand on vessel? I know it doesnt help after the fact and at that time blame must be assigned. I agree that once that motor was started you stepped down to give way vessle as it seems you were not being overtaken, but could not many accidents be avoided if some were not so stubborn. :cussing:
I look at it like when in doubt of the other vessels intensions, clarity or knowledge of the situation - just steer clear. After all we are sometimes unfortunately dealing with folks who
are completely cocked off their rockers after a long day of drinking in the sun
jimmyb
I look at it like when in doubt of the other vessels intensions, clarity or knowledge of the situation - just steer clear. After all we are sometimes unfortunately dealing with folks who
are completely cocked off their rockers after a long day of drinking in the sun
jimmyb
My question did not refer specifically to this situation, but was a follow-up to what one poster said, that in a crossing situation, the boat being crossed is the give-way vessel. I couldn't find anything in the colregs to this effect and I wanted to know where it says this, or if it's mistaken. Thanks.
I would have kept going at the same speed and signalled for him to pass behind or I would have altered course very early to steer behind him. The most important thing is communication. If you steer toward him you are giving him notice to continue and pass in front of you.... If you maintain speed and course.. give him a blast of the horn and point to your stern then he knows you want him to pass behind.
I don't care what the coast guard says... it's what the court says. You must make your intentions clear.... if he doesn't then you must. IN YOUR CASE NEITHER OF YOU MADE YOU INTENTIONS CLEAR. I'll bet you a dollar the windsurfer has no clue what "stand on" and "give way" vessel means.
I don't care what the coast guard says... it's what the court says. You must make your intentions clear.... if he doesn't then you must. IN YOUR CASE NEITHER OF YOU MADE YOU INTENTIONS CLEAR. I'll bet you a dollar the windsurfer has no clue what "stand on" and "give way" vessel means.
My earlier comments were related to the fact that if you turned off the power rushed forward and hoisted your sails then you would both be sailboats. The sailboarder still is the vessel to starboard based on the description and the stand on vessel and you still have the responsibility to stay clear of him for collision avoidance purposes. If you were both under sail who would be the boat on starboard tack?
correction
Actually he was trying to cut in front of me which is why I slowed down. Then about 30 feet away he decided to go behind me. If he would have decided to go behind me the whole time he would have passed 30 to 50 feet behind me.
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