Whisker pole recommendations

[Levin]

Hello all,

I'm looking for recommendations for a whisker pole for my 2000 Hunter 340 sailboat. I'm a casual racer, mostly in the beer can series here in San Diego on Wednesdays during the summer, and in an effort to improve my times I realized I should have a whisker pole for downwind runs. Although I have an asymmetrical spinnaker I usually run in a "non-spinnaker" class and would be using the pole mostly to push out the jib. I have a 110 jib on a roller furling and this is what the pole would most often be attached to but I wouldn't be adverse to getting a whisker pole that could double as a spinnaker pole for the asymmetrical (I know asymmetricals don't typically get poled out, but I figure it could be under certain conditions). However making sure I got something for the intended purpose of poling out the jib would be the most important thing to me.

So I don't really know much about whisker poles, what ones are good, what size I would need and whether or not they are all telescoping (I would prefer this if they aren't). I would also want to keep the pole attached to the front of my mast vertically when not in used to keep from having to find room for it down below or on the deck itself, so if there is one that is better for this please let me know. So if anyone out there who knows a bit about this area could point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
-Levin

 

[Joe]

You might check with the organization you race under to see what, if any, limitations are on whisker pole use so you don't have to change class or rating, etc. The you can find a basic tutorial on whisker poles in the west marine advisor

Although I sometimes use my spinnaker pole to hold out the genoa in light air, be aware that different forces affect the two devices making them not as interchangeable as one may think. For most whisker pole applications, the foot length of the intended sail is the optimal length. The foot... tack to clew, whereas a spinnaker is commonly restricted to the boat's "J" dimension.... so for the whisker pole the sail dictates size, for the spinnaker pole the boat determines it.

An adjustable length whisker pole allows it to be used with roller furling or multiple sail sizes. If you only use one head sail when racing, you don't need the extra expense of an adjustable pole... and can easily build one yourself by purchasing a few parts and a length of tubing. I would suggest dropping by San Diego Sailing Supply on Canon St in Pt Loma. SD Sailing Supply(where I buy all my cordage and hardward) is a racing oriented store owned by San Diego Marine, while its sister store, Downwind Marine, is geared to the cruiser. ANYHOW.....tell them your thoughts, bring your sail dimensions and a few picks of your mast and rigging. When you run a whisker pole you will need a topping lift (spare halyard will work) to support the pole, but they may also recommend a foreguy... mainly to keep the pole pulled forward off the shrouds.

A lot of your decision will be based on your budget, but it's money well spent.

 

[Dave Groshong]

A whisker pole is adjustable, a spinnaker pole is a fixed length. I agree with Joe that you can save a ton of money if you have just one big genny you're trying to pole out, if I remember correctly, you'll want the length to be the length of the foot of sail. The h340 has an "I" measurement of 11.5, so if you're running a 150% that's 17.25 ft, a bit long for storing, but probably do-able.

Forespar does make really nice whisker poles, I recommend the 12-22ft, here's a link:

http://shop.hunterowners.com/prod.php?14112

http://shop.hunterowners.com/prod.php?14120

 

[tkanzler]

I found a used Forespar line control like the ones in the link for my H340 with working jib. I didn't have a genoa on that boat. I believe it was the 10-18 ft unit. I could furl the headsail with the pole at full extension, though some sail was still exposed. But I could wind it up if needed, with the pole on the sheet. The foot on the working jib is only about 15 ft, by the way, and the J-dimension is 11.5 ft.

I stored it on lifeline stantion mounts, with a small safety line in each jaw to the stantions, in case it tried to get away.

I used the spinnaker halyard to hold it up in light air, as in the pic below.

 

[Ross]

When I want one I cut a piece of bamboo and use that. It is light and cost free.

 

[tommays]

The wind strength you intend to use it in should guide you price point as they load UP BIG TIME when your running in wind above 15 knots

Dogging a failing one is NOT FUN

 

[Levin]

Hello all,

So it sounds like I'm looking for the 10-18 foot extendable whisker pole. I have a 110% jib on my boat and this is likely what I will be poling out most of the time (what tkanzler had is amost exactly what I think I would want). I do want to be able to store it on the front of the mast so it looks like if I'm wanting to do that then I will need a track on the front of my mast instead of just a single pad-eye (at least that is what it looks like I'll need from the video I looked at from Forespar). Does anyone have any advice about putting something like this on the mast? Is it massively time consuming or is it fairly simple?

Thanks for everyone's help.

Take care,
-Levin

 

[tkanzler]

If you have the funds to spend, a track is a really good idea whether you store it on the mast or not, as it allows vertical adjustment of the mast end. Varying conditions, different head sails, whatever.

 

[Joe]

A track is absolutely a good idea, especially if you aspire to race or fly a symetrical spinnaker in the future. But if you're only going to use one sail you can set the mast ring it the optimal location rather than invest in a track and car. The track is fixed the front of the mast by tapping the fasteners. You can purchase the proper size tap and drill at a good hardware or tool supply(try sears), you don't have to purchase an entire tap set. If the fasteners are fine thread (32 ct) that's better.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Joe, curious about your comment ...

regarding loads on a spinnaker pole vs loads on a whisker pole. It seems to me that I have heard that a spinnaker pole may need to be a stronger section than a whisker pole. I find that odd, since the whisker pole extends out to a much longer length.

I'm installing a track to the front of my mast with the consideration that I want to rig for a symetrical spinnaker. I am thinking about getting a whisker pole that can serve double duty, but won't if it can't be used for a spinnaker.

For those of you who race with a spinnaker, are you disqualified for using a whisker pole, even if not extended beyond the J dimension?

Basically, why aren't whisker poles used for double duty as a spinnaker pole?

 

[tommays]

Depending on the local rules were you sail there is a penalty for a pole longer than your J length

We now get a 5 second bonus if we use a J length one in Main & jib

For the pole to do both it would have to start at the J length and extend to X as a standard length pole does a bad job on a head sail and to long a pole would be bad on Spinnaker

Trust me we do Spinnaker and Main & Jib events and they both carry heavy loads and were are on the second carbon spinnaker pole as the original gave up in pretty a special fashion

 

[Levin]

Hello all,

So I've started to look at whisker poles and the Forespar Tri-Reacher pole looks very interesting. It extends from 8 to 21 feet which should be perfect for my boat. Has anyone ever had any experience with this product? It looks good but I can't find any reviews of it. Perhaps it is just too new.

Thanks,
-Levin

 

[Joe]

regarding loads on a spinnaker pole vs loads on a whisker pole. ............Basically, why aren't whisker poles used for double duty as a spinnaker pole?

Scott, the basic difference is that spinnaker poles are built heavier than whisker poles, they are designed to handle the much higher compression loads required to support the tack end of a huge sail. The whisker pole's function is to simply push the clew end of the sail out to improve the sail's sheet angle. Loads are much less and from a different direction. I wouldn't hesitate using the spin pole as a whisker, but I would be reluctant to tack my big ass spinnaker to an expensive, telescoping, lighter weight pole.

Ross mentioned that he could pole out his genoa's clew with a bamboo pole, but he could never get away with that on the front end of a racing spinnaker. The forces are just too great.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Joe, I've got a question that I hope doesn't stray from the topic, but "different direction of wind" on the kite? I was under the assumption that jibs and spinnakers are poled out basically downwind, or at points relatively close to that, so why would the forces of the chute be any or much more than on a headsail?

(I would ask the wife, the kite guru around here, but she flies them out of instinct or whatever, and can't explain the engineering questions that I have, force factors, shock loading, etc).

(I love spinnakers. They are beautiful and scary things that I don't understand well. Sort of like females)..

 

[Cayenne]

A spinnaker creates compression forces against the mast when close reaching. A genoa carries the pole on the clew and not on the tack. When racing with a pole, PHRF requires that it's length equals to or be shorter than the J.
If your Hunter has a mast by Southern Spars it probably already has a track built in. It looks like a groove at either side and carries a car that you can buy from them. You'll need ti install a pole up/down system. The upper block high enough to allow the pole to be stored vertically.

 

[Joe]

Joe, I've got a question that I hope doesn't stray from the topic, but "different direction of wind" on the kite? I was under the assumption that jibs and spinnakers are poled out basically downwind, or at points relatively close to that, so why would the forces of the chute be any or much more than on a headsail?

Not sure I understand the question... are you asking if a boat with attached luff sail, its clew poled out to leeward, is on the same point of sail as one with a free flying spinnaker, its tack held out to windward with a pole, would have the same force on its sail..... I can't answer that Chris, that's just too technical for me...

but I can tell you that the forces on the respective poles would be different. Why? The simplest analogy I can think of is a front wheel drive car. The tire wear is so uneven, the front tires doing all the twisting and power transfer... the tire rubber, UV joints, half shafts, brakes, all wear out faster than the rear wheels........ which just follow along.

Well, I know this isn't a technical explanation..please don't beat me up too much... but the forward, windward set spinnaker pole is like the front end of the car... it's handling all the twisting and lifting pressure of this huge free flying sail. The whisker pole, however, is simply holding the clew of the fixed luff headsail out to leeward so the front of the sail can get a better angle of attack, and it won't experience the same degree of twisting and lifting a forward/windward set pole will.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Levin, I think most sailors won't store the pole vertically on the mast because it disturbs the air flow at the luff of the main sail. Of course others don't think that makes enough difference to matter. I thought about that option and decided I didn't need a track long enough to make that work and I don't think I want the pole against the mast anyway.

About the loads ... hmmm ... as an engineer, I'm a little confused about the vectors. Thanks to Joe and Cayenne for pointing out the simple explanation that a Spinnaker is loaded at 3 points, the head the tack and the clew. Only the head and the tack are (nearly) attached to a spar and we know the mast has a beefy section to resist bending. The spinnaker pole has to resist bending at the mast (I believe) since the only place it is really fixed is at the mast. I don't have the experience to know, but do spinnaker poles fail near the mast when they fail? (If not, then I think I'd have to reset my thinking!)

But I would expect that a spinnaker set for close reaching would put the pole mostly in bending. If the pole were strictly in compression, wouldn't it want to drive the boat backwards? I would think that with the pole all the way back for ddw, the pole would be at it's greatest bending force. Spars handle tension easily, and compression easily if there is no bending. A spinnaker pole would have an increasing bending moment as the winds increase.

OTOH, the genoa has the whole luff loaded to the forestay, so the pressures on the clew are far less than half. Besides that, I think that as the wind builds, the pressure at the clew would be in tension ... easily handled by a lightweight aluminum pole or even a bamboo pole.

 

[Davidasailor26]

But I would expect that a spinnaker set for close reaching would put the pole mostly in bending. If the pole were strictly in compression, wouldn't it want to drive the boat backwards? I would think that with the pole all the way back for ddw, the pole would be at it's greatest bending force. Spars handle tension easily, and compression easily if there is no bending. A spinnaker pole would have an increasing bending moment as the winds increase.

Scott,

The compression loads on the spinnaker pole when reaching are due to the leeward force of the sail being opposed by the tension of the guy. Since the guy has a very acute angle to the pole, it takes a large amount of tension to oppose the leeward force of the sail pulling perpendicular to the pole. Since the guy/pole angle is acute, the guy tension therefore results in pole compression. Since both ends of the pole are free to rotate, there should not be any bending force (provided the pole is not allowed to run into the forestay).

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yes,

I had to draw it out to see! Just as Cayenne says, the compression load increases as the pole moves forward (due to the angle between the pole and the guy decreasing). Also, it explains why the spin pole has to be so much stronger than a whisker pole.

Thanks!

 

[Witzend]

I use the top half of a 490 carbon windsurfing mast, you are not going to break it. The extreme rake cut into the luff these new windsurfing sails have now, demonstrates how flexible they are. I raced with one on a Hunter 37 years ago, used it for a lose luff, we back winded it one time, it bent like a paper clip, but did not brake. I now have one for my C310 on a mast track ... pull it down... pop the tang into the clew ring... very easy to solo sail.