Whisker Pole Limited to "J" Length?

[EditorC22NSA]

Our local sailing club has boats that race with a spinnaker, and those who do not. For those boats that race with a spinnaker, the spinnaker pole is limited to the "J" measurement. For those boats that race without a spinnaker, they are using a 150% Genoa, and the whisker pole is limited to the "LP" measurement, which is typically no more than 150% of the "J" measurement. Non-spinnaker boats also get a 12-second credit for not using a flying (spinnaker) sail. Any sail larger than a 150% has a PHRF penalty applied.

For years, one of the spinnaker racers has continuously stated that, per the Racing Rules of Sailing, boats racing non-spinnaker are also limited to a whisker pole no longer then the "J" dimension. I disagree, and said if you can show me the rule, I will gladly comply. I do not believe such a rule exists.

Do you believe that giving a non-spinnaker boat with a 150% Genoa a 12-second credit and allowing a whisker pole that is longer than the "J" measurement but restricted to no longer than the "LP" measurement puts a non-spinnaker boat at an advantage over a comparably equipped spinnaker boat?

(Note - "LP" is the distance from the clew of the Genoa to the closest distance along the luff of the Genoa. On a Catalina 22, if the "J" is 8 feet, the "LP" is 12 feet).

I am also the Scorer and PHRF Czar at our club, so my interest here is getting other feedback so that I can make sure PHRF ratings are fair and reasonable.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Rich Fox

 

[walmsleyc]

Not a RRS rule, but usually part of you PHRF requirement/rules. PHRF-LO (Lake Ontario) appears to have dropped any restriction on whisker pole length. It's not even a required measurement any more (since ~2008). Check with your PHRF manual.

Chris

 

[Grotto]

I would say no. Whisker poles attach at the back of the sail “holding it open”. The spinnaker pole attaches at the front allowing for greater variation of trim from broad reach to dead down wind. The trade in pole size is is offset (in my opinion) by the diminished ability to pick the fastest point of sail with a whisker pole.

I’m not a PHRF guru but I would take the spinnaker any day and the offset seem fair from my experience.

 

[Jackdaw]

Rich,

You are correct RRS 50.2 only says this:
SPINNAKER POLES; WHISKER POLES
Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

Now to your question. In the majority of PHRF fleets, the non-spin credit is designed to rate the difference between flying a spin and not flying one on a given boat. Generally, this difference is less on masthead boats with big genoas, more on fractional boats, and even more on modern boats with non-overlapping rigs. It’s not intended to rate non-spin boats vs spin boats in the same race, and most fleet rules will say that. This is because its depending on the course and breeze, it going to be unfair to one type or the other. Usually non-spin, but on a breezy reaching race non-spins are advantaged.

For this reason every PHRF fleet I know of races two distinct fleets, spin and non-spin.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Jackdaw...what is the PHRF rating spread for your spinnaker fleet and non-spin fleet?
At our club, boats with a PHRF of 200 or higher are lumped together as a single fleet. However, as a few non-spin boats are migrating to spinnaker, it may be time to split the PHRF200+ fleet into spin and non-spin.
Our club also has a fleet of boats with PHRF <200, and all boats race spinnaker.
In the past, we didn't lump all spinnaker boats into a single fleet as the PHRF spread would be from 168 to approximately 270.
So, curious what type of PHRF spread your club may have.
Thanks again!

-Rich

 

[Jackdaw]

In PHRF 1 (spin) (smaller than MAX% headsail credit given if flown)
120 - J/70, J/27
270 - Cat 22

In PHRF 2 (non-spin) (NFS credit given) (smaller than MAX% headsail credit given if flown)
192 - Merit 25
300 - Cat 22

All boats the WYC are in the 22-27 foot range. Its interesting, a 100 second range should result in about a 6-7 minute spread on a 4nm course. But of course it always ends up being wider than that. Usually the reason is self-inflected.

Re mixed fleets, we have an around-the-island series that have races that often end up being 90% upwind and close reaching. A PHRF 2 Santana 23 rating 192 will often catch a PHRF 1 Beneteau 235 rating 198 in PHRF 1 that started 3 minutes before! Not better sailors. Good things the fleets are separate!

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Thanks for sharing Jackdaw...interesting that your non-spin PHRF ratings are at least 20 seconds higher than what we have for Merit 25 and Cat 22. In the future, I may split our PHRF 200+ fleet into spin and non-spin. Until this year, that fleet has only been non-spin, and only one or two boats are now just starting to try a spinnaker. Fortunately, local PHRF Committee can do whatever they feel is appropriate to make things work. Thanks again!

 

[Will Gilmore]

I'm curious as to why the division between spin and non-spin in the first place. Does it not seem like a captain's choice of strategic sailing to choose to race with spinnaker or genoa, depending upon the course, conditions and captain and crew's philosophy? I mean, why not just give everyone the same boat, and require everyone fly the same sails if the captain can't choose what is best for the given race conditions? To complain that the other guy had an advantage because he chose to fly a spinnaker when I didn't seems like I'd be a poor sport. I can see giving a handicap for boat length or hull configuration, not everyone can afford to buy a new boat, but if you are going to race, why penalize the guy who pulls out the spinnaker when anyone could conceivably do so.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks for sharing Jackdaw...interesting that your non-spin PHRF ratings are at least 20 seconds higher than what we have for Merit 25 and Cat 22. In the future, I may split our PHRF 200+ fleet into spin and non-spin. Until this year, that fleet has only been non-spin, and only one or two boats are now just starting to try a spinnaker. Fortunately, local PHRF Committee can do whatever they feel is appropriate to make things work. Thanks again!

We give up to 18 seconds spin credit, and also jib credit and credit for your OB dragging in the water on either tack. Some of those numbers might reflect that.

 

[Jackdaw]

I'm curious as to why the division between spin and non-spin in the first place. Does it not seem like a captain's choice of strategic sailing to choose to race with spinnaker or genoa, depending upon the course, conditions and captain and crew's philosophy? I mean, why not just give everyone the same boat, and require everyone fly the same sails if the captain can't choose what is best for the given race conditions? To complain that the other guy had an advantage because he chose to fly a spinnaker when I didn't seems like I'd be a poor sport. I can see giving a handicap for boat length or hull configuration, not everyone can afford to buy a new boat, but if you are going to race, why penalize the guy who pulls out the spinnaker when anyone could conceivably do so.

-Will (Dragonfly)

To your last point, its because everyone cannot conceivably do so. Not every has a spinnaker, not everyone has CREW to fly it. Or the time to train to use it effectively. They are expensive, scary to some.

Giving everyone the same boat sounds great but a silly idea in the real world. People race what they got.

But back to your real question which is very valid; why not rate all boats and let them race together'?

The simple reasons is that it can't be made fair. Too many variables. Handicap rules give ONE number for all courses and conditions. That's why the original PHRF rules said sail like this, no such thing as credit:
Boat and sails in racing condition
155% hank-on genoa
mainsail
180% spinnaker
folding prop or retractable OB

Don't have that its fine, but no credit for slower configs. Its racing!

Now fleets work the middle ground, and give credit where it makes sense. But the credits are just educated guesses, that we try and prove out by looking at results. The more flexibility you give a boat in its rated condition is good, but it creates potential inequities or the possibly of gaming the race. I've had boats want to switch to non-spin at the last moment because of conditions, or fly just their jib and get jib credit. Not fair. But most times the advantages happen due to course and conditions.

Most if not all credits are designed to UNDER-credit the variable. The thought is best hurt the one (non-conforming) boat, and not the rest of the fleet. So even with the adjustment, most spin boats will crush a non-spin boat corrected in a one-fleet race. But in the right conditions that can flip. A boat can get 6 second credit for a fixed prop. In light airs that might cost them 30 seconds/mile. On a very breezy day, nothing.

Other formula based ratings systems are better, but are mostly costly to run (you have to have your boat and sails officially measured). So PHRF is what most got, and we live with the limitations.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Jackdaw...very well stated. I took over as the PHRF Czar at our club last year. My approach this year is to more actively manage our PHRF ratings, rather than simply borrow numbers posted by other clubs. I have 7 years of race results, as I have been the club's Score-Keeper since 2011, and making gradual adjustments to keep the racing as fair as possible, competitive, and fun. Like you, I find it fascinating to see how other Club's rate boats with PHRF. Thanks again!