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Same?
Isn't the difference just the type, an ablative(VC) versus the hard modified-epoxy(Trinidad)? I use the Trinidad SR and find it hard and smooth. It looks fast but I have no basis for comparison. I easily get two seasons on Lake Erie even though it is out of the water for five months. I haven't painted yet, should I try for three? It still looks very good.
Isn't the difference just the type, an ablative(VC) versus the hard modified-epoxy(Trinidad)? I use the Trinidad SR and find it hard and smooth. It looks fast but I have no basis for comparison. I easily get two seasons on Lake Erie even though it is out of the water for five months. I haven't painted yet, should I try for three? It still looks very good.
Trinidad
If the offshore is an ablative, the the Trinidad should be faster. If you race you propabaly don't want an ablative. If your a cruiser, you probabaly don't want a hard finish. If both are hard finishes, then the prepwork may be the real equalizer. Regards, Chris
If the offshore is an ablative, the the Trinidad should be faster. If you race you propabaly don't want an ablative. If your a cruiser, you probabaly don't want a hard finish. If both are hard finishes, then the prepwork may be the real equalizer. Regards, Chris
VC Offshore
VC offshore is a teflon based hard paint. I had it on the bottom of my 23.5. I just repainted with Ultima SR. This is a paint that is the same as Trinidad SR but allows for mutli season. If racing or trailing the VC Offshore is a faster, becuase it can go on thinner and does not wear off. The Trinidad and Ultima are ablative and wear away as you sail. Also ablative paint must be put on thicker than teflon. The problem with teflon is to paint over it with other than teflon you must sand well so the teflon paint to get good adhesion on the other paint.
VC offshore is a teflon based hard paint. I had it on the bottom of my 23.5. I just repainted with Ultima SR. This is a paint that is the same as Trinidad SR but allows for mutli season. If racing or trailing the VC Offshore is a faster, becuase it can go on thinner and does not wear off. The Trinidad and Ultima are ablative and wear away as you sail. Also ablative paint must be put on thicker than teflon. The problem with teflon is to paint over it with other than teflon you must sand well so the teflon paint to get good adhesion on the other paint.
I think vc offshore
I have a 30cb which i've raced for 11yrs. used baltoplate first two and then said there must be a better way. The better way is vc offshore. But be forewarned this paint can't be put on top of practically any thing except its own family of paints. so all former paints must be completely removed. this is what the manf. says, believe them. I learned the hard way in a couple of small areas. I'll suggest some ways and you can take it from there. First get an airLESS, I repeat An AIRLESS spray gun. the cost of it will be returned in savings of paint in your first application. First Get enough paint for what you consider 1 1/2 applications. the 1/2 of a diff. color to use as base. this will be your tell tale to indicate when your real coat is thin. When you paint it needs to be as windless as possible. First you don't want paint migrating to other boats and the paint you buy you obv. want on your boat. the paint will need to be thinned obv.I put a couple of nuts in can to help keep copper mixed well. you really have to keep agitating to keep it mixed. Lots of coats are better than trying to put it on thick. by the time you've worked your way around boat you can keep moving on. the beauty of this is the paint you buy stays on bottom and requires absolutely minimal sanding to get a bottom that's as smooth as your gel coat. after applying i touch
I have a 30cb which i've raced for 11yrs. used baltoplate first two and then said there must be a better way. The better way is vc offshore. But be forewarned this paint can't be put on top of practically any thing except its own family of paints. so all former paints must be completely removed. this is what the manf. says, believe them. I learned the hard way in a couple of small areas. I'll suggest some ways and you can take it from there. First get an airLESS, I repeat An AIRLESS spray gun. the cost of it will be returned in savings of paint in your first application. First Get enough paint for what you consider 1 1/2 applications. the 1/2 of a diff. color to use as base. this will be your tell tale to indicate when your real coat is thin. When you paint it needs to be as windless as possible. First you don't want paint migrating to other boats and the paint you buy you obv. want on your boat. the paint will need to be thinned obv.I put a couple of nuts in can to help keep copper mixed well. you really have to keep agitating to keep it mixed. Lots of coats are better than trying to put it on thick. by the time you've worked your way around boat you can keep moving on. the beauty of this is the paint you buy stays on bottom and requires absolutely minimal sanding to get a bottom that's as smooth as your gel coat. after applying i touch
Just curious, but why do you want to know?
If it has anything to do with racing, does bottom paint really matter unless you're being beaten by so few seconds that a particular bottom paint would make the difference? Or is there enough difference the amount of drag between one bottom paint and another to create a much wider margin than that? Some powerboaters argue over which bottom paints add or subtract as little as one MPH to their "top end" speeds of 40-45 MPH--in fact even whether to bottom at all and which wax to use instead...but how much possible difference can bottom paint make at 6-7 knots over an 8-10 mile course?
If it has anything to do with racing, does bottom paint really matter unless you're being beaten by so few seconds that a particular bottom paint would make the difference? Or is there enough difference the amount of drag between one bottom paint and another to create a much wider margin than that? Some powerboaters argue over which bottom paints add or subtract as little as one MPH to their "top end" speeds of 40-45 MPH--in fact even whether to bottom at all and which wax to use instead...but how much possible difference can bottom paint make at 6-7 knots over an 8-10 mile course?
Front of the fleet vs back of the pack
First of all no one puts a paint as expensive as vc offshore on unless they're at least a little serious about winning. There's a number of quotes floating around that say the majority of the race is won before you get to the coarse. this is so true. an ill or none prepared boat has little chance of doing well. A dirty and or rough bottom can affect boat speed by as much as .2knots in light air. with a heavy disp boat such O'days with their low sa/disp ratios in comparision to other manf. this lose is the kiss of death to them. I know this first hand with my 11,000# 30' winnabago. think about the numbers a little. If you have a 70nm race by the rhumb line this means that if most is to weather then you sail aprox 90nm. a 1second/mile difference in boat speed translates into 1min 30sec in time. In a big race such as the governors cup on the chesapeake I've seen this be the difference of 6 or 7 places in your class. picture what would happen if the diff between a well preped bottom vs a rolled and none sanded etc. that has a difference of as much as 20 to 30 sec/ mile slower would give you. you have to realise that all the other racers out there have well preped bottoms. there are many other things that can be done to bottoms
First of all no one puts a paint as expensive as vc offshore on unless they're at least a little serious about winning. There's a number of quotes floating around that say the majority of the race is won before you get to the coarse. this is so true. an ill or none prepared boat has little chance of doing well. A dirty and or rough bottom can affect boat speed by as much as .2knots in light air. with a heavy disp boat such O'days with their low sa/disp ratios in comparision to other manf. this lose is the kiss of death to them. I know this first hand with my 11,000# 30' winnabago. think about the numbers a little. If you have a 70nm race by the rhumb line this means that if most is to weather then you sail aprox 90nm. a 1second/mile difference in boat speed translates into 1min 30sec in time. In a big race such as the governors cup on the chesapeake I've seen this be the difference of 6 or 7 places in your class. picture what would happen if the diff between a well preped bottom vs a rolled and none sanded etc. that has a difference of as much as 20 to 30 sec/ mile slower would give you. you have to realise that all the other racers out there have well preped bottoms. there are many other things that can be done to bottoms
Good, detailed answer...thanks!
And I know exactly what you mean about prep and boat condition...not to mention how well the crew works together. But (and I'm not trying to belabor the point, I'm really curious) there's a major difference between a dirty bottom and a clean one, and the difference between bottom paints. ALL bottom paints create some drag...so if you're THAT serious about winning, and smoothness of the bottom is so critical that which paint makes a difference, wouldn't the best thing be not to paint at all...to keep the bottom waxed and polished to mirror-smooth and store the boat out of the water? That's what a lot of powerboaters do...and there's even debate among them about which wax to use to gain another .0001 MPH at 70mph.
And I know exactly what you mean about prep and boat condition...not to mention how well the crew works together. But (and I'm not trying to belabor the point, I'm really curious) there's a major difference between a dirty bottom and a clean one, and the difference between bottom paints. ALL bottom paints create some drag...so if you're THAT serious about winning, and smoothness of the bottom is so critical that which paint makes a difference, wouldn't the best thing be not to paint at all...to keep the bottom waxed and polished to mirror-smooth and store the boat out of the water? That's what a lot of powerboaters do...and there's even debate among them about which wax to use to gain another .0001 MPH at 70mph.
true up to a point !
Unfortunately most of us can't afford to haul a 30'boat after every race. we like to cruise them also. if we were that hard core we wouldn't be racing an o'day we'd have a j105 or j120 or the ilk. at a cost of about 200$ every haulout that gets a tad expensive quickly. I know the big boys do it but they are playing with millions and whats a few more bucks. as to the waxing for somereason wax on the bottom is actually slower than a 600 wet sanded bottom. I know it is especially since the J24 crowd all dry sail their boats and none wax. believe me if it was faster they would be waxing.
Unfortunately most of us can't afford to haul a 30'boat after every race. we like to cruise them also. if we were that hard core we wouldn't be racing an o'day we'd have a j105 or j120 or the ilk. at a cost of about 200$ every haulout that gets a tad expensive quickly. I know the big boys do it but they are playing with millions and whats a few more bucks. as to the waxing for somereason wax on the bottom is actually slower than a 600 wet sanded bottom. I know it is especially since the J24 crowd all dry sail their boats and none wax. believe me if it was faster they would be waxing.
(nm)Grasshoppers
Ooooohhhhh grasshoppers. Drag is related to the boundary conditions of the boat hull. You see water flowing over a hull can be laminar, or turbulent. Many things have been tried to keep the flow laminar like Dennis Connor trying 3M tape with micro grooves to simulate a whales skin on his 12 meter in Freemantle. But when you get much more microscopic down to the atomic level what you will find is that water molecules actually touching the boat are stationary, and immediately adjacent to that layer is a molecule that is in motion. So the real trick is how to make water slide past water more easily. Protruberances and other sources of turbulence are definitely bad things, so remove all your thru hulls and patch the holes in the boats followed by fairing them. I'd be willing to bet that a good coating with dish washing soap would be better than wax, but of course it won't last, maybe enough to give an edge at the start. Of course you could invent a soap injection process where pores in the hull are used to replenish the supply. Best of luck with your inventions. dave
Ooooohhhhh grasshoppers. Drag is related to the boundary conditions of the boat hull. You see water flowing over a hull can be laminar, or turbulent. Many things have been tried to keep the flow laminar like Dennis Connor trying 3M tape with micro grooves to simulate a whales skin on his 12 meter in Freemantle. But when you get much more microscopic down to the atomic level what you will find is that water molecules actually touching the boat are stationary, and immediately adjacent to that layer is a molecule that is in motion. So the real trick is how to make water slide past water more easily. Protruberances and other sources of turbulence are definitely bad things, so remove all your thru hulls and patch the holes in the boats followed by fairing them. I'd be willing to bet that a good coating with dish washing soap would be better than wax, but of course it won't last, maybe enough to give an edge at the start. Of course you could invent a soap injection process where pores in the hull are used to replenish the supply. Best of luck with your inventions. dave
Dennis actually does this
I read an article once by dennis where he says they do wipe down bottom w soap. I 'm a little familar w/ the paint you refer to its a micro plating paint that only cost about 3000$/gal. alittle past most our budgets. any paint of that type has been outlawed. as to putting something into the water to keep laminar has also been outlawed. One of the reasons for as smooth a bottom as you can get mechanically is to keep laminar flow as long as you can. once you crossover to turbulant flow conditions the drag coefficient goes thru the roof. this is why that the most important section of the boat to deal with is the forward 40% of the boat. you want to keep laminar flow on the hull for as long as possible. the smoother the hull the further aft the crossover point on the boat will be.
I read an article once by dennis where he says they do wipe down bottom w soap. I 'm a little familar w/ the paint you refer to its a micro plating paint that only cost about 3000$/gal. alittle past most our budgets. any paint of that type has been outlawed. as to putting something into the water to keep laminar has also been outlawed. One of the reasons for as smooth a bottom as you can get mechanically is to keep laminar flow as long as you can. once you crossover to turbulant flow conditions the drag coefficient goes thru the roof. this is why that the most important section of the boat to deal with is the forward 40% of the boat. you want to keep laminar flow on the hull for as long as possible. the smoother the hull the further aft the crossover point on the boat will be.
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