When sailing (racing) downwind which sail is faster, a conventional spinnaker or an asymmetric spinnaker?
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Which Downwind Spinnaker?
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Ducati-
Well, large sails generally prove faster, except when the air gets very light and then smaller sails are usually better. However, one of the problems that I would see is that some racing class rules do not allow A-spins because of girth and foot restrictions. Also A-spins require somewhat tighter apparent wind angles and it takes more coordination for a crew to pull off a good jibe with an A-spin. There are trade offs.
For strictly cruising I would opt for an A-spin because you don't need a pole. In fact I lust after an A-spin for Emmanuel. Maybe someone will buy me one for my birthday this year.
Well, large sails generally prove faster, except when the air gets very light and then smaller sails are usually better. However, one of the problems that I would see is that some racing class rules do not allow A-spins because of girth and foot restrictions. Also A-spins require somewhat tighter apparent wind angles and it takes more coordination for a crew to pull off a good jibe with an A-spin. There are trade offs.
For strictly cruising I would opt for an A-spin because you don't need a pole. In fact I lust after an A-spin for Emmanuel. Maybe someone will buy me one for my birthday this year.
Like Priness says, a lot depends upon the apparent wind angle. We race against J/109's, which have asymetrical chutes, in our J/36, which has a symetrical one. To get to the leeward mark, they go off on reaches: going faster, but much further, beause they have to gybe back and forth so much. We head dead downwind, straight for the mark. Sometimes they beat us to the mark, sometimes we beat them. Depends upon the wind.
Depends on the boats polars and IF the polars are correct
We like doing races out at MSSA as they set up all kinds of oddball courses that place a premium on being able to do a LOT of fast sets and douses in different ways VS a standard W/L were you do the same thing over and over
Nothing like starting and doing a set in the first 90 seconds
We like doing races out at MSSA as they set up all kinds of oddball courses that place a premium on being able to do a LOT of fast sets and douses in different ways VS a standard W/L were you do the same thing over and over
Nothing like starting and doing a set in the first 90 seconds
Duc,
For W/L 36.7 racing sims are faster. As someone said, it's all in the VMG. On the 367, the best downwind angle is almost always below 150, too deep for the asym. See the polar below. Best speed/angles are marked. For distance racing the asym will be closer, but its always smaller than an sim. If you've got the crew, go with the poled sail.
For W/L 36.7 racing sims are faster. As someone said, it's all in the VMG. On the 367, the best downwind angle is almost always below 150, too deep for the asym. See the polar below. Best speed/angles are marked. For distance racing the asym will be closer, but its always smaller than an sim. If you've got the crew, go with the poled sail.
The long answer
It all depends on wind speed, course direction, and rules. Some PHRF areas allow you to carry both without penalty so long as the asymmetrical spin area is no larger than the standard symmetrical spin area. Course direction and windspeed are a big factor as is boat type. I used to race on a Beneteau 38S5 in the BYC MAC. We carried 5 spinnakers for the race. 3 Symmetrical, 2 Asymmetrical. Our inventory included: 47-80 apparent A, 65-150 apparent AP A, 1.2 oz runner- S, 3/4oz AP-S, .6 Poly - AP. Most races (250nm) we used all 5 at one time or another. Our best point of sail was about apparent 110 degrees with the AP A-sail and a staysail flying underneath it.
If you don't have an extendable sprit a 3/4oz Symmetrical AP cut is hard to beat in most conditions if you only carry 1 spinnaker. I have a flat cut AP symmetrical and a runner symmetrical for my boat. I'd love to add an asymmetrical reacher for distance races.
It all depends on wind speed, course direction, and rules. Some PHRF areas allow you to carry both without penalty so long as the asymmetrical spin area is no larger than the standard symmetrical spin area. Course direction and windspeed are a big factor as is boat type. I used to race on a Beneteau 38S5 in the BYC MAC. We carried 5 spinnakers for the race. 3 Symmetrical, 2 Asymmetrical. Our inventory included: 47-80 apparent A, 65-150 apparent AP A, 1.2 oz runner- S, 3/4oz AP-S, .6 Poly - AP. Most races (250nm) we used all 5 at one time or another. Our best point of sail was about apparent 110 degrees with the AP A-sail and a staysail flying underneath it.
If you don't have an extendable sprit a 3/4oz Symmetrical AP cut is hard to beat in most conditions if you only carry 1 spinnaker. I have a flat cut AP symmetrical and a runner symmetrical for my boat. I'd love to add an asymmetrical reacher for distance races.
Jude brings up good points. A few more practical 367 thoughts...
367 OD rules do not allow asyms, but I'm assuming you are talking PHRF
If you are short handed go asym for sure. We can manage one with two on board.
The 367 is NOT asym friendly at the bow. Be ready to bend pulpits and tear off Nav lights unless you find a way to keep the tackline away from the bow. We are looking at small removable prod mounted to the bow. If you do mods, make sure you keep future OD status of the boat in mind.
367 OD rules do not allow asyms, but I'm assuming you are talking PHRF
If you are short handed go asym for sure. We can manage one with two on board.
The 367 is NOT asym friendly at the bow. Be ready to bend pulpits and tear off Nav lights unless you find a way to keep the tackline away from the bow. We are looking at small removable prod mounted to the bow. If you do mods, make sure you keep future OD status of the boat in mind.
I race my J-36 out of St. Croix using a 3/4 oz asym on the pole. I can transfer from the tack line to a lazy guy and pole and go as deep as a sym. When we get to tight reaching leg a sym has to go to a jib/genoa while I can still carry my asym either on the pole or on the bow. Very versatile. Only need one chute. Just have to make sure that the lazy guys are hooked after getting the boat around the mark and either square or reach. use pole as needed. See Rolex results or BVI results for Cayennita Grande. Will never go back to sym.
Asymetrical vrs Symetrical Kite
Well here is my take having owned and sailed both.
Gybing an Asymetrical is WAY easier than dealing with a Symetrical Gybe.
An Asymetrical on an extendable pole vrs bow tacked is essentially the same gybe so I do not see any difference there.
Using a standard pole and an Asymetrical spin is the hardest maneuver you can try and do in a racing environment. I used to own a J124(41'Footer) and this is what we did and it takes practice. With that said an Asymetrical on a standard pole is the fastest configuration out there that I have found.
If you are cruising using and Asym and a ATN snuffer is a great way to short hand a big kite and give you the most speed in all wind ranges for the least effort.
Is all of the info credible? Well I sail a Beneteau 49 with an Asym kite and a snuffer - this is a great system and makes the boat go and I can do it with just my wife and I.
I also race a Melges 20 with an oversized Asym very fast
Finally I use my Santa Cruz 37 with a large Asym on an extendable pole and frankly it is unbeatable in a blow and in light air.
Symetrical kites are OK but simply too much work for the added benefits which are only found in certain wind angles.
If you learn how to sail an Asym you can beat a sum kite every time.
Well here is my take having owned and sailed both.
Gybing an Asymetrical is WAY easier than dealing with a Symetrical Gybe.
An Asymetrical on an extendable pole vrs bow tacked is essentially the same gybe so I do not see any difference there.
Using a standard pole and an Asymetrical spin is the hardest maneuver you can try and do in a racing environment. I used to own a J124(41'Footer) and this is what we did and it takes practice. With that said an Asymetrical on a standard pole is the fastest configuration out there that I have found.
If you are cruising using and Asym and a ATN snuffer is a great way to short hand a big kite and give you the most speed in all wind ranges for the least effort.
Is all of the info credible? Well I sail a Beneteau 49 with an Asym kite and a snuffer - this is a great system and makes the boat go and I can do it with just my wife and I.
I also race a Melges 20 with an oversized Asym very fast
Finally I use my Santa Cruz 37 with a large Asym on an extendable pole and frankly it is unbeatable in a blow and in light air.
Symetrical kites are OK but simply too much work for the added benefits which are only found in certain wind angles.
If you learn how to sail an Asym you can beat a sum kite every time.
Articulating Bow Sprits
Articulating bow sprits seem to offer the best of both worlds and I would bring up how the design/cut of the spinnakers themselves as well.
Articulating bow sprits seem to offer the best of both worlds and I would bring up how the design/cut of the spinnakers themselves as well.
I was just wondering if you could provide more info on the procedure or a link to more info or a video. I've used an asym on a bow sprit and a Sym with a spinnaker pole but never a asym with a spinnacker pole. I can't get my head around the bow tack and the pole use.
Hey letoile!
I'm pretty sure it involves using the lazy sheet as the guy. And the tackline becomes sort of the down haul. As the tack will be at the bow, attach the pole, and take tension on the guy as you slightly release the tack line to set the height. As you winch the pole/guy back, you release the tackline to maintain the height The only trick to the AFAICT is managing both controls because changing one changes the other.
Oh and as someone else pointed out, jibing would have a new procedure too.
I'm pretty sure it involves using the lazy sheet as the guy. And the tackline becomes sort of the down haul. As the tack will be at the bow, attach the pole, and take tension on the guy as you slightly release the tack line to set the height. As you winch the pole/guy back, you release the tackline to maintain the height The only trick to the AFAICT is managing both controls because changing one changes the other.
Oh and as someone else pointed out, jibing would have a new procedure too.
On my heavy crab-crusher with fixed bowsprit, I use an asymmetrical with spinn pole for near DDW 'passage' sailing. The pole is restrained with a 'dinghy method' bridle to allow a topping lift (to take the weight off the sail) and a pole downhaul - to prevent the pole from 'rising' when on a deep reach. I keep the asymm tack line attached to the pole ... and either attach to the pole with an end loop at the tack of the sail or the tackline in the 'jaws' (free to 'run') - depending on the windstrength and sea state. If the wind is 'up' you may need to attach a foreguy/lazy guy to the Pole to keep it in correct fore/aft position. The asymm on a pole is the best of all worlds and MUCH simpler than an symmetric (I used to use a symm with 4-line, sheets + foreguys on a 180%, 1800+ sq. ft. symm, now just a 'simple' 1750 sq. ft. asymm.). For the pole I use an end for end gybe of the pole (dinghy fashion) but since I still use the tack line (with loop) I have my choice of gybe methods for the asymm. For higher sailing angles I simply fly the asymm tacked/blocked to the end of the bowsprit. I dont even carry my symm anymore, as using an asymm tacked to a pole is 'that good'.
On my sport boat (M20-I20) with a retractable bowsprit, and use either asymm or symm (with std. pole) - depending on the sailing angle ... and since the addition of the retractable sprit, Im using the asymm more than I thought. This is a 'tunnel hulled' planing hull scow-boat so if the forward speed is sufficient, the asymm will usually be flying with the apparent wind 'forward', except for when forced to near DDW.
On my sport boat (M20-I20) with a retractable bowsprit, and use either asymm or symm (with std. pole) - depending on the sailing angle ... and since the addition of the retractable sprit, Im using the asymm more than I thought. This is a 'tunnel hulled' planing hull scow-boat so if the forward speed is sufficient, the asymm will usually be flying with the apparent wind 'forward', except for when forced to near DDW.
Thanks for the info Jackdaw and RichH...one more question. Do you run 2 guys off the tack and 2 sheets off the clew for an outside gybe?
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