... the pre-purchase survey or an offer to buy? If all goes the way I think it will, we're going to decide tomorrow to make a serious run at purchasing a C27. Do I have the pre-purchase survey done, and let that be a bargining tool on writing a contract, or do a write a contract contingent upon a good survey? Or something else? My two previous boats were $2000 wonders so I didn't worry about it. This one costs enough to be careful with both the survey and the process. Thanks, Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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I agree w/ Paul
if you find a problem with the survey, then you can renegotiate a price or walk away. good luck, Marc
if you find a problem with the survey, then you can renegotiate a price or walk away. good luck, Marc
Paul is right
You make the offer first. Then get the survey. The owner must agree to fix or reduce to sales price of any item not already disclosed.
You make the offer first. Then get the survey. The owner must agree to fix or reduce to sales price of any item not already disclosed.
Paul is right Jim is not
sorry Jim. Seller has no legal obligation to reduce price or make repairs as the result of conditions found. Sale is always "as is". Tom if you are dealing with a broker remember the broker works for the seller. Just because there is language on the "offer" or "purchase and sale" forms the broker uses, doesn't mean you can't take a pen to the form and cross out language you don't like. My selling broker's form said 10% earenst money,I offered 3% . Broker's form said sea trial within 7 days, I changed this to 20 days. The standard language used for the "subject to survey" contingency, has a standard set, perhaps seaworthiness, or something similar. You don't want any standard set. If necesary change the offer form so it reads "survey to buyers satisfaction" . Also don't disclose the survey results to the seller or broker and tell the surveyor not to discuss anything with the broker/seller and make sure the seller/broker are not around during the survey and that you are. You choose whether to do the in water survey first or the haul out hull survey first. Either could result in a "deal killer" condition. I did the in water survey first when I bought because all info was that hull was probably sound. If survey finds something that deceases value of boat TO YOU, then disclose the survey and ask seller to come down in price, seller will or won't. Try not to fall in love with the boat until you own it. Make a low ball offer. I offered 70% of asking price and bought for 80% of asking price, after walking away from the negociations for a month. Hey it was the middle of winter, and I was in no rush to own a boat. Remember you are buying an expense not an investment. Be a hard nosed buyer. Scott
sorry Jim. Seller has no legal obligation to reduce price or make repairs as the result of conditions found. Sale is always "as is". Tom if you are dealing with a broker remember the broker works for the seller. Just because there is language on the "offer" or "purchase and sale" forms the broker uses, doesn't mean you can't take a pen to the form and cross out language you don't like. My selling broker's form said 10% earenst money,I offered 3% . Broker's form said sea trial within 7 days, I changed this to 20 days. The standard language used for the "subject to survey" contingency, has a standard set, perhaps seaworthiness, or something similar. You don't want any standard set. If necesary change the offer form so it reads "survey to buyers satisfaction" . Also don't disclose the survey results to the seller or broker and tell the surveyor not to discuss anything with the broker/seller and make sure the seller/broker are not around during the survey and that you are. You choose whether to do the in water survey first or the haul out hull survey first. Either could result in a "deal killer" condition. I did the in water survey first when I bought because all info was that hull was probably sound. If survey finds something that deceases value of boat TO YOU, then disclose the survey and ask seller to come down in price, seller will or won't. Try not to fall in love with the boat until you own it. Make a low ball offer. I offered 70% of asking price and bought for 80% of asking price, after walking away from the negociations for a month. Hey it was the middle of winter, and I was in no rush to own a boat. Remember you are buying an expense not an investment. Be a hard nosed buyer. Scott
Scott, that is quite a class you gave.
None of that stuff has ever come to my mind. I had to pause and ask myself why not, it's good scoop. My answer was, I've never bought a used boat, only new. Or I made one. (some of your info should have come to mind. I'd have been better off) Again, good stuff.
None of that stuff has ever come to my mind. I had to pause and ask myself why not, it's good scoop. My answer was, I've never bought a used boat, only new. Or I made one. (some of your info should have come to mind. I'd have been better off) Again, good stuff.
It's all over when you fall in love
We went all silly and paid too much. The owner knew we loved the boat and would pay his price. I know he wanted to sell but I didn't have the guts to do the hard nosed bargaining that would have saved us money. We were afraid that someone else would step up and buy her out from under us. In retrospect she is a fine boat but there are a lot of fine boats available.
We went all silly and paid too much. The owner knew we loved the boat and would pay his price. I know he wanted to sell but I didn't have the guts to do the hard nosed bargaining that would have saved us money. We were afraid that someone else would step up and buy her out from under us. In retrospect she is a fine boat but there are a lot of fine boats available.
Tom, don't feel bad, that's what money is for.
You just defined the free enterprise system and the rule of supply and demand. You scored! Enjoy.
You just defined the free enterprise system and the rule of supply and demand. You scored! Enjoy.
Scott is wrong
If the owner does want to make the repair or adjust the price, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE BOAT!
If the owner does want to make the repair or adjust the price, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE BOAT!
Scott
Thanks to all
This sounds enough like being the hard-nosed buyer of a home, which I have done a dozen times too many, that I think I will be OK. Outboard, not inboard, which simplifies things a bit. I'm going to take the outboard to my normal repair guy to look at, and have the rest of the boat surveyed by a well-recommended guy, and be present. I'm not going to the expense of a sea trial. I know how these boats sail, love them, etc. Hard to keep away from the "love" part. I wouldn't want to buy her if I wasn't already hooked!!!!!! My guess is that I will discover she is exactly what she appears to be ... a lovingly maintained boat in good condition. But she still gets the survey!!! Well, I'm shutting down for the day and weekend. Thanks to all of you. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
This sounds enough like being the hard-nosed buyer of a home, which I have done a dozen times too many, that I think I will be OK. Outboard, not inboard, which simplifies things a bit. I'm going to take the outboard to my normal repair guy to look at, and have the rest of the boat surveyed by a well-recommended guy, and be present. I'm not going to the expense of a sea trial. I know how these boats sail, love them, etc. Hard to keep away from the "love" part. I wouldn't want to buy her if I wasn't already hooked!!!!!! My guess is that I will discover she is exactly what she appears to be ... a lovingly maintained boat in good condition. But she still gets the survey!!! Well, I'm shutting down for the day and weekend. Thanks to all of you. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
Who pays for haul out for second survey?
Scott, your note lists a survey on water and a haul out survey. I assume the buyer pays the survey. Who pays for the haulout?
Scott, your note lists a survey on water and a haul out survey. I assume the buyer pays the survey. Who pays for the haulout?
Buyer pays for everything
whether the purchase is finalized or not. Here is what I did. I had an agreement with my surveyor that I would pay by the hour for in water survey, to be credited against the flat fee survey charge if a report was written. I was there "shoulder to shoulder" with the surveyor during the in water survey. If we were into the in water survey an hour and the surveyor pointed out something that was a "deal killer" then I paid for an hour and we were done. No report, no sale. In water went OK. Then I scheduled a haul out and sling hang with the yard. It was written into the purchase/sale agreement that the in water and haul out would NOT occure on the same day. I don't want the surveyor rushing. So a couple of days later broker motors boat over to yard at end of marina and I tell broker to take a walk for an hour. I pay the yard $3-4 a foot to haul out and hang in slings and pressure wash hull. Surveyor finds rudder delamination. Call over yard manager, to ball park cost of repair. Cutlass bearing is worn and keel needs some fairing compound and surveyor says bottom paint is too built up and has incompatible paints and will start to flake off in big slabs, and so all paint should come off. Yard guy says $100 a foot for paint stripping. Surveyor takes photos of rudder and close up of hull paint and I leave. Mull it over for a couple of days (because offer agreement gives me lots of time to make a final decision), don't return calls from broker. I gamble that the seller will come down some in the price post survey and then I pay a couple hundred each for a rigging/mast survey and engine survey. Engine and standing rigging checks out fine. Mechanic saying great engine (don't want seller/broker around to hear that). I poke around the boat some more and find battary charger status lights are dead and diesel furnance won't heat( suveyors usually dont check systems operation, only that things are hooked up). I go back to the broker and take a deep breath and say "no deal" (am out of pocket about $1000 and really want this boat, wife even more so)show him the hull survey re rudder and bottom paint. I make new offer with only continency that operation of heater and battary charger be proven. Seller comes down some after replacing the battary charger and putting fuel in the heater tank. We split the difference and I buy the boat and start stripping paint and end up paying the yard more than expected for rudder repair. The hearter fails in the first year ($800 repair) and since I didn't check the sails very well ( no wind during test sail) I will probably be replacing the main as soon as buget allows. Custom stern rail seats first. Sorry for going on and on. Moral of the story, no matter what you spend on surveys, whether you buy the boat or not, it will still be the least expense month of your boat ownership. Scott
whether the purchase is finalized or not. Here is what I did. I had an agreement with my surveyor that I would pay by the hour for in water survey, to be credited against the flat fee survey charge if a report was written. I was there "shoulder to shoulder" with the surveyor during the in water survey. If we were into the in water survey an hour and the surveyor pointed out something that was a "deal killer" then I paid for an hour and we were done. No report, no sale. In water went OK. Then I scheduled a haul out and sling hang with the yard. It was written into the purchase/sale agreement that the in water and haul out would NOT occure on the same day. I don't want the surveyor rushing. So a couple of days later broker motors boat over to yard at end of marina and I tell broker to take a walk for an hour. I pay the yard $3-4 a foot to haul out and hang in slings and pressure wash hull. Surveyor finds rudder delamination. Call over yard manager, to ball park cost of repair. Cutlass bearing is worn and keel needs some fairing compound and surveyor says bottom paint is too built up and has incompatible paints and will start to flake off in big slabs, and so all paint should come off. Yard guy says $100 a foot for paint stripping. Surveyor takes photos of rudder and close up of hull paint and I leave. Mull it over for a couple of days (because offer agreement gives me lots of time to make a final decision), don't return calls from broker. I gamble that the seller will come down some in the price post survey and then I pay a couple hundred each for a rigging/mast survey and engine survey. Engine and standing rigging checks out fine. Mechanic saying great engine (don't want seller/broker around to hear that). I poke around the boat some more and find battary charger status lights are dead and diesel furnance won't heat( suveyors usually dont check systems operation, only that things are hooked up). I go back to the broker and take a deep breath and say "no deal" (am out of pocket about $1000 and really want this boat, wife even more so)show him the hull survey re rudder and bottom paint. I make new offer with only continency that operation of heater and battary charger be proven. Seller comes down some after replacing the battary charger and putting fuel in the heater tank. We split the difference and I buy the boat and start stripping paint and end up paying the yard more than expected for rudder repair. The hearter fails in the first year ($800 repair) and since I didn't check the sails very well ( no wind during test sail) I will probably be replacing the main as soon as buget allows. Custom stern rail seats first. Sorry for going on and on. Moral of the story, no matter what you spend on surveys, whether you buy the boat or not, it will still be the least expense month of your boat ownership. Scott
scott-great summary and education
you did not go on and on. Well written to the point on your flow of events and very educational to anyone who will be going through the same process
you did not go on and on. Well written to the point on your flow of events and very educational to anyone who will be going through the same process
Just bought used boat
I just went through the process of buying a boat nearly 4 hour drive from home. I first spotted the boat in a magazine ad up here, called the owner and expressed some interest, then left it alone. when I made him an offer 30% below asking, he came and followed me out and we did doa deal contingent upon satisfactory to me survey. Never appear to interested and take your time. It is your money your spending.
I just went through the process of buying a boat nearly 4 hour drive from home. I first spotted the boat in a magazine ad up here, called the owner and expressed some interest, then left it alone. when I made him an offer 30% below asking, he came and followed me out and we did doa deal contingent upon satisfactory to me survey. Never appear to interested and take your time. It is your money your spending.
Dirk Gets an "A" in boat buying 101
yep, never seem really interested or say one good thing about a boat you might buy and never take someone with you who might get all excited on you and start drooling over an electric windlass. Scott
yep, never seem really interested or say one good thing about a boat you might buy and never take someone with you who might get all excited on you and start drooling over an electric windlass. Scott
lots of good advise but,
just like with anything, some things are the "norm" but everything is negotiable.
just like with anything, some things are the "norm" but everything is negotiable.
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