Looking to buy new full batten main for a Catalina 36. I have had good luck with Cruising Direct (for cost & quality)in the past. Just wondering who else is out there to consider purchasing from. Thanks.
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best place to buy sails
I bought 3 rolly tasker sails from Dirk National sail supply Brooksville FL The sails were made in Thailand using computer specs and US made bambridge sailcloth. I found both price and service excellent.
I bought 3 rolly tasker sails from Dirk National sail supply Brooksville FL The sails were made in Thailand using computer specs and US made bambridge sailcloth. I found both price and service excellent.
Sails
If your sails are not too old don't overlook Sailcare. They get high marks from regular visitors to this forum. Practical Sailor did a review of sail retailers in March 2005 and listed these companies as being good sources. Once you have the Luff, Leech and Foot measurements call a couple of these companies for prices so you can compare against the Sail Care price. Sail Exchange 800-628-8152 http://www.sailexchange.com National Sail Supply 239.693.1896 http://www.nationalsail.com Cruising Direct 888.424.7388 http://www.cruisingdirect.com Far East Sails 206.339.3618 http://www.fareastsails.com The Sail Warehouse 831.646.5346 http://www.thesailwarehouse.com Air Force Sails 877.237.2457 http://www.airforcesails.com National Sail Supply got the nod from Practical Sailor for offering the best price and by far the most attentive responses. As far as used sails go, PS gave the nod to the Sail Exchange. A recent discussion on sail vendors on hunterowners.com indicates Atlantic Sail Traders http://www.usedsails.com/ got high marks from former customers.
If your sails are not too old don't overlook Sailcare. They get high marks from regular visitors to this forum. Practical Sailor did a review of sail retailers in March 2005 and listed these companies as being good sources. Once you have the Luff, Leech and Foot measurements call a couple of these companies for prices so you can compare against the Sail Care price. Sail Exchange 800-628-8152 http://www.sailexchange.com National Sail Supply 239.693.1896 http://www.nationalsail.com Cruising Direct 888.424.7388 http://www.cruisingdirect.com Far East Sails 206.339.3618 http://www.fareastsails.com The Sail Warehouse 831.646.5346 http://www.thesailwarehouse.com Air Force Sails 877.237.2457 http://www.airforcesails.com National Sail Supply got the nod from Practical Sailor for offering the best price and by far the most attentive responses. As far as used sails go, PS gave the nod to the Sail Exchange. A recent discussion on sail vendors on hunterowners.com indicates Atlantic Sail Traders http://www.usedsails.com/ got high marks from former customers.
Thanks Brian......
We do offer premium Doyle Sails at a 10% discount. Our Doyle loft has over 30 years of experience and a solid reputation for quality and value. Designed, cut and sewn in the US from the best fabric.
We do offer premium Doyle Sails at a 10% discount. Our Doyle loft has over 30 years of experience and a solid reputation for quality and value. Designed, cut and sewn in the US from the best fabric.
Local Sailmaker?
I'm amazed that no one recommended a local sailmaker. Why always lowest cost from a warehouse or overseas operation? How long do you expect to own those sails? Exactly what type and weight of material is best for yur type of sailing? Who do you call when they aren't exactly what you expected? Other than one excelent used sail from Bacons, I've always gone to Skelly Sails in HavreDeGrace, Md. Max Skelly has measured the rig for the Genoas and for the last sail we purchased, an absolutely perfectly cut loose footed main, obversize battens, one full top batten, double reef points, draft stripes and a few dollars more than that priced on this site.
I'm amazed that no one recommended a local sailmaker. Why always lowest cost from a warehouse or overseas operation? How long do you expect to own those sails? Exactly what type and weight of material is best for yur type of sailing? Who do you call when they aren't exactly what you expected? Other than one excelent used sail from Bacons, I've always gone to Skelly Sails in HavreDeGrace, Md. Max Skelly has measured the rig for the Genoas and for the last sail we purchased, an absolutely perfectly cut loose footed main, obversize battens, one full top batten, double reef points, draft stripes and a few dollars more than that priced on this site.
The point of these repetitive "What's the BEST?" questions
almost ALWAYS seem to ignore including the parameters (there I go again, using the same word within 24 hours!). *box Asking what's "Best" is a questionable question, at best!
I've said it before, it's like asking your mother who's the best girl to marry: the beautiful one, the one who can cook, or the one who can do math and be a professional investment banker? Gee, nobody knows your criteria. Is it lowest cost, cheapest equipment, longest life, best references, local vs shipped, contact with sail maker who can measure your boat, cruising or racing... The list goes on and on. And every time we try to answer these questions, we get in the same bind, and end up right where Mr. Sauer puts us: what, Mr. Questioner, are you looking for? should have been the first answer. So, going back to the top, Pat, you asked "Just wondering who else is out there to consider purchasing from..." What kinda, humbly, question is that??? It's like asking where can I get a boat. There are hundreds of sail makers out there. What do YOU want, then we can begin to help you. The key answer to this question, in all it's variations over the years has been: most people who bought locally were happier because of the attention they received from their local sail makers. Most people who bought through the mail were happy about the lowest price. Most everyone here agrees that you can't have both.
almost ALWAYS seem to ignore including the parameters (there I go again, using the same word within 24 hours!). *box Asking what's "Best" is a questionable question, at best!
I've said it before, it's like asking your mother who's the best girl to marry: the beautiful one, the one who can cook, or the one who can do math and be a professional investment banker? Gee, nobody knows your criteria. Is it lowest cost, cheapest equipment, longest life, best references, local vs shipped, contact with sail maker who can measure your boat, cruising or racing... The list goes on and on. And every time we try to answer these questions, we get in the same bind, and end up right where Mr. Sauer puts us: what, Mr. Questioner, are you looking for? should have been the first answer. So, going back to the top, Pat, you asked "Just wondering who else is out there to consider purchasing from..." What kinda, humbly, question is that??? It's like asking where can I get a boat. There are hundreds of sail makers out there. What do YOU want, then we can begin to help you. The key answer to this question, in all it's variations over the years has been: most people who bought locally were happier because of the attention they received from their local sail makers. Most people who bought through the mail were happy about the lowest price. Most everyone here agrees that you can't have both.
Stu, it is called having a dialog
People tend to email the same way they have oral conversations. Imagine someone coming up to you and asking the very specific question you are referring to in your post. They just don't do that. They say "hey Stu, where do I find some good sails" and you respond "gee Tim, what do you mean by good?" And the dialog starts. There is nothing wrong with having this dialog using a forum like this because everyone is watching and learning. I am now off the box and back to varnishing. And for the record, I cannot imagine ever buying a sail from anyone other than a local sailmaker. Mail 155 Genny was a little long in the foot restricting my ability to trim it so my sailmaker cut it down free of charge at the end of the season. He was not sure it was too long until I took him sailing and he agreed. Try that with mail order.
People tend to email the same way they have oral conversations. Imagine someone coming up to you and asking the very specific question you are referring to in your post. They just don't do that. They say "hey Stu, where do I find some good sails" and you respond "gee Tim, what do you mean by good?" And the dialog starts. There is nothing wrong with having this dialog using a forum like this because everyone is watching and learning. I am now off the box and back to varnishing. And for the record, I cannot imagine ever buying a sail from anyone other than a local sailmaker. Mail 155 Genny was a little long in the foot restricting my ability to trim it so my sailmaker cut it down free of charge at the end of the season. He was not sure it was too long until I took him sailing and he agreed. Try that with mail order.
Stu, great points......
and this is a great dialogue. I'm passionate about sailing and my job. I love the fact that this company provides such personal service and can deliver such a high quality product. Although we're online, we always answer our calls, 9-5 at least during the week. Our simple measurement worksheet ensures you get a sail that is designed, cut and sewn in the US by Doyle, for your boat, specifically. Customer's that need help with the worksheet always get as much special attention as they need. That being said, there are hundreds of good sail lofts in this country and there are always many variables to be considered.
and this is a great dialogue. I'm passionate about sailing and my job. I love the fact that this company provides such personal service and can deliver such a high quality product. Although we're online, we always answer our calls, 9-5 at least during the week. Our simple measurement worksheet ensures you get a sail that is designed, cut and sewn in the US by Doyle, for your boat, specifically. Customer's that need help with the worksheet always get as much special attention as they need. That being said, there are hundreds of good sail lofts in this country and there are always many variables to be considered.
Thanks all
I knew I would get some valuable inputs. It's always good to hear first hand experience rather than advertisement. FYI, in 10 years or so I have bought from warehouse/overseas, used SailCare and a local big name loft. Biggest disapointment was the loft. I had them out to my boat and sailing 3 or 4 times. So now that I have my $600 rebate in hand I'll continue to do my research. Although I believe in free trade I am going to try and make this spend in the US.
I knew I would get some valuable inputs. It's always good to hear first hand experience rather than advertisement. FYI, in 10 years or so I have bought from warehouse/overseas, used SailCare and a local big name loft. Biggest disapointment was the loft. I had them out to my boat and sailing 3 or 4 times. So now that I have my $600 rebate in hand I'll continue to do my research. Although I believe in free trade I am going to try and make this spend in the US.
Would you buy a mail-order suit?
Don't assume that mail-order sails will fit your rig any better than a mail-order suit would fit your body, not even if you own hull #34,867 of a popular production boat. Designing a suit of sails for your boat isn't just about getting the dimensions right. It's also about understanding how/why you sail the boat, in what sort of conditions you tend to sail the boat, and how a given sail will have to fit into your existing inventory. I would never purchase a sail from someone who hasn't stood on my foredeck. And I'm willing to spend the extra few dollars to get the sail right. For me, it's not just about using a local loft; it's about using the right local loft.
Don't assume that mail-order sails will fit your rig any better than a mail-order suit would fit your body, not even if you own hull #34,867 of a popular production boat. Designing a suit of sails for your boat isn't just about getting the dimensions right. It's also about understanding how/why you sail the boat, in what sort of conditions you tend to sail the boat, and how a given sail will have to fit into your existing inventory. I would never purchase a sail from someone who hasn't stood on my foredeck. And I'm willing to spend the extra few dollars to get the sail right. For me, it's not just about using a local loft; it's about using the right local loft.
You guys support what most don't know
I ran a manufacturing department for MTS/Shiloh making chipper/shredders. We made White, MTD (always red), Craftsman (grey metalic), Yardman (green and yellow), and one I cannot remember. The differences were the impeller (two types) and blades. The impeller made little difference overall. The blades were a different story. There were two kinds. One was heat treated, like your lawn mower blade. The other was like a precision wood chisel, and just as sharp. It could shave the hair off your arm. I had one employee who got stupid and took off the safety cover on one blade and just pushed it into a finger. Went straight to the bone. So, I would tell anyone buying one, my dentist, dermi, cousin's, etc. to buy the MTD (least expensive) and also buy replacement blades for the White and Yardman. Then, when the blades on the MTD got dull, replace them with the new ones. Of course these too got dull eventually, which made them on par with the other ones. But, it took longer, and when resharpened, held the edge longer, as a good piece of steel will. In other words, when you boil things down, it becomes clear, and the fluff you buy into disappears. So, lets look at sails. How many manufacturers are the for the material? Some of you will say "a ton", but the reality is there really isn't a lot of difference when you are talking "in general". Now, if you race at Indy at 200+ mph, then you want tires to match or exceed the speed. But you are on a sailboat going 7,8,9 knots. Period. The variables? How fast to get you on plane? Sailboats don't plane. High wind conditions? Did you just win the lottery? If so, buy one 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 oz main, staysail, and jib! If not, then you will just get a regular, go to the grocery store, bank, library tire. There are two, and as far as my research goes, only two computer programs commercially available for making sails. So when the loft asks you for X,Y,and Z dimensions, that is all they need! So, the sails can be made anywhere. China, the moon, Mars, Cleveland! I realize there are differences, like do you race, do you cruise, do you do ocean sailing. Yes there are and yes these make a difference, somewhat, in ordering your sail. But overall, we just need the generic one to get out, sail, and get back.
I ran a manufacturing department for MTS/Shiloh making chipper/shredders. We made White, MTD (always red), Craftsman (grey metalic), Yardman (green and yellow), and one I cannot remember. The differences were the impeller (two types) and blades. The impeller made little difference overall. The blades were a different story. There were two kinds. One was heat treated, like your lawn mower blade. The other was like a precision wood chisel, and just as sharp. It could shave the hair off your arm. I had one employee who got stupid and took off the safety cover on one blade and just pushed it into a finger. Went straight to the bone. So, I would tell anyone buying one, my dentist, dermi, cousin's, etc. to buy the MTD (least expensive) and also buy replacement blades for the White and Yardman. Then, when the blades on the MTD got dull, replace them with the new ones. Of course these too got dull eventually, which made them on par with the other ones. But, it took longer, and when resharpened, held the edge longer, as a good piece of steel will. In other words, when you boil things down, it becomes clear, and the fluff you buy into disappears. So, lets look at sails. How many manufacturers are the for the material? Some of you will say "a ton", but the reality is there really isn't a lot of difference when you are talking "in general". Now, if you race at Indy at 200+ mph, then you want tires to match or exceed the speed. But you are on a sailboat going 7,8,9 knots. Period. The variables? How fast to get you on plane? Sailboats don't plane. High wind conditions? Did you just win the lottery? If so, buy one 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 oz main, staysail, and jib! If not, then you will just get a regular, go to the grocery store, bank, library tire. There are two, and as far as my research goes, only two computer programs commercially available for making sails. So when the loft asks you for X,Y,and Z dimensions, that is all they need! So, the sails can be made anywhere. China, the moon, Mars, Cleveland! I realize there are differences, like do you race, do you cruise, do you do ocean sailing. Yes there are and yes these make a difference, somewhat, in ordering your sail. But overall, we just need the generic one to get out, sail, and get back.
that's sooooooooooo wrong.
A great boat with lousy sails ends up being a dog. On my last boat, it took a couple of years before the OEM sails, made in Hong Kong of cheap dacron, were so blown out I could no longer stand to look at them. Rather than having them re-cut for the second time, I replaced them with tri-radial laminated sails (mylar with dacron scrim) made by the same manufacturer, UK, this time built in their Swedish loft as per my specs. The difference in performance was palpable. I was pointing 8 degrees higher and almost a full knot faster. At the same time, I was reefing about 5 knots later than before, and still heeling less. More to the point, when I sold that boat six years later, those sails were still in their original shape. (The jib had had the UV cover replaced, but the shape was still perfect.) The fastest way to transform a nimble yacht into a plodding scow is to scrimp on the sails. Material, design, and the quality of the build all make a huge difference.
A great boat with lousy sails ends up being a dog. On my last boat, it took a couple of years before the OEM sails, made in Hong Kong of cheap dacron, were so blown out I could no longer stand to look at them. Rather than having them re-cut for the second time, I replaced them with tri-radial laminated sails (mylar with dacron scrim) made by the same manufacturer, UK, this time built in their Swedish loft as per my specs. The difference in performance was palpable. I was pointing 8 degrees higher and almost a full knot faster. At the same time, I was reefing about 5 knots later than before, and still heeling less. More to the point, when I sold that boat six years later, those sails were still in their original shape. (The jib had had the UV cover replaced, but the shape was still perfect.) The fastest way to transform a nimble yacht into a plodding scow is to scrimp on the sails. Material, design, and the quality of the build all make a huge difference.
Sails
i don't race, but I do know that it does make a difference who makes your sails. For cruising you don't care, but if you are racing it does make a difference. All Ulman top line sails, for example, for a J35 are not the same and an individual maker will tweak the shape a little bit, adding a little more draft here or a little less there. You can be sure that when a Gary Jobson gets sails for his Farr 60, he has a particular individual he goes to for his sails - he jsut doesn't google North and pick a guy.
i don't race, but I do know that it does make a difference who makes your sails. For cruising you don't care, but if you are racing it does make a difference. All Ulman top line sails, for example, for a J35 are not the same and an individual maker will tweak the shape a little bit, adding a little more draft here or a little less there. You can be sure that when a Gary Jobson gets sails for his Farr 60, he has a particular individual he goes to for his sails - he jsut doesn't google North and pick a guy.
A sail is not a suit
Buying a suit is not at all like buying a sail. Men come in many sizes and shapes so some specific tailoring may be needed. That is not true of production sailboats. The dimensions for production boats are well known. Sails, except for the *very* few who need special racing sails or other specialty sails, are a commodity. Where you choose to buy things is a personal decision. Some like local. I buy all of my boat gear online. I feel I get the best price/performance that way. I have purchased several sails that met my needs just fine and the sailmaker never set foot on my foredeck and if he did I'd say "get off my boat!"
Buying a suit is not at all like buying a sail. Men come in many sizes and shapes so some specific tailoring may be needed. That is not true of production sailboats. The dimensions for production boats are well known. Sails, except for the *very* few who need special racing sails or other specialty sails, are a commodity. Where you choose to buy things is a personal decision. Some like local. I buy all of my boat gear online. I feel I get the best price/performance that way. I have purchased several sails that met my needs just fine and the sailmaker never set foot on my foredeck and if he did I'd say "get off my boat!"
Not all Production boats are exactly the same, even in the same lineups.
There are subtle differences. If you're a discriminating sailor, these differences are important. Many sailors can't trim right anyway so the subtleties are lost on them. There's no way in hell I'd buy sails online through some sail quote machine. I want very specific measurements with regards to luff, leach and foot round, upper, mid and lower depth, twist and sheeting angles. All of these impact shape and performance and I'm not leaving any of them to chance.
There are subtle differences. If you're a discriminating sailor, these differences are important. Many sailors can't trim right anyway so the subtleties are lost on them. There's no way in hell I'd buy sails online through some sail quote machine. I want very specific measurements with regards to luff, leach and foot round, upper, mid and lower depth, twist and sheeting angles. All of these impact shape and performance and I'm not leaving any of them to chance.
while I admit to being a reformed racer...
...I think cruisers would get a lot more fun out of their sailing if they'd pay more attention to the design of their sails. My yacht club holds a monthly cruise-out to another club, and I participate in these more often than not. I'm amazed at the number of cruisers who motorsail (or just plain motor) more than 80% of the time, even on cruises when we're able to sail the entire distance. Why is that? Often it's because their cheapo sails are so blown out that they're not good for anything other than reaching, and only then in ideal conditions because stretched sails turn stiff boats into tender beasts. Back in my one-design days we'd purchase a new suit of sails every year right before the nationals, each suit custom designed for the conditions we'd most likely encounter. Not just for anticipated wind speed, mind you, but for such factors as wave action and chop. We'd insist that the sails be delivered rolled (unfolded) and we wouldn't use the sails until the tune-up race. What would always amaze me is how different one suit would be from another, even when made of the same material by the same manufacturer for the same boat. Cruisers tend to want their sails to last far longer than racers do. All the more reason to begin with a well-built sail! For example, on a cheap sail (OEM or mail order) build for in-mast furling, the webbing on the clew will be sewn on outside of the UV protection. Much cheaper to build them that way even though that webbing is not UV resistant. So what are you going to do when your clew blows out in the middle of a passage because your webbing has rotted in the sun while you were in port with the sail rolled up inside your mast? I could have bought a Cruising Direct gennaker for half the price I paid North Sails for the G-3 I ultimately bought. Both sails were made by the same company. The CD sail would have been build of 1/3 the number of panels, would have had inferior stitching--especially at the corners--would have been built of heavier fabric that wasn't nearly as strong, and would not have been custom designed for my boat or my cruising needs. No thanks. My friends who wasted their money on CD sails tend to leave them in their bags in the forepeak while my G-3 tends to get flown at least 4 times a month year 'round. And after two years of heavy use, it still looks like a brand-new sail and hasn't needed a single patch or repair. You get what you pay for. I'm amazed at the number of folks on this site who will pay $70 for a quart of the latest two-part varnish substitute, and yet will buy generic sails off the shelf. What's that about?
...I think cruisers would get a lot more fun out of their sailing if they'd pay more attention to the design of their sails. My yacht club holds a monthly cruise-out to another club, and I participate in these more often than not. I'm amazed at the number of cruisers who motorsail (or just plain motor) more than 80% of the time, even on cruises when we're able to sail the entire distance. Why is that? Often it's because their cheapo sails are so blown out that they're not good for anything other than reaching, and only then in ideal conditions because stretched sails turn stiff boats into tender beasts. Back in my one-design days we'd purchase a new suit of sails every year right before the nationals, each suit custom designed for the conditions we'd most likely encounter. Not just for anticipated wind speed, mind you, but for such factors as wave action and chop. We'd insist that the sails be delivered rolled (unfolded) and we wouldn't use the sails until the tune-up race. What would always amaze me is how different one suit would be from another, even when made of the same material by the same manufacturer for the same boat. Cruisers tend to want their sails to last far longer than racers do. All the more reason to begin with a well-built sail! For example, on a cheap sail (OEM or mail order) build for in-mast furling, the webbing on the clew will be sewn on outside of the UV protection. Much cheaper to build them that way even though that webbing is not UV resistant. So what are you going to do when your clew blows out in the middle of a passage because your webbing has rotted in the sun while you were in port with the sail rolled up inside your mast? I could have bought a Cruising Direct gennaker for half the price I paid North Sails for the G-3 I ultimately bought. Both sails were made by the same company. The CD sail would have been build of 1/3 the number of panels, would have had inferior stitching--especially at the corners--would have been built of heavier fabric that wasn't nearly as strong, and would not have been custom designed for my boat or my cruising needs. No thanks. My friends who wasted their money on CD sails tend to leave them in their bags in the forepeak while my G-3 tends to get flown at least 4 times a month year 'round. And after two years of heavy use, it still looks like a brand-new sail and hasn't needed a single patch or repair. You get what you pay for. I'm amazed at the number of folks on this site who will pay $70 for a quart of the latest two-part varnish substitute, and yet will buy generic sails off the shelf. What's that about?
I am intrigued by the various comments here.
I know people that load the family into an old car (easily described as a jalopy) and go for a Sunday afternoon drive. They pack a picnic lunch and have a wonderful day. I know other people that load the family into their luxury SUV and go for a Sunday drive. They stop in a high end restaurant and they have a wonderful day. I know people who have the shiniest boats and the best sails and they take their family and friends sailing and they have a wonderful time. I know others that have functional boats and they take family and friends sailing and they have a wonderful time. Is one scene better than the other? Not in my opinion. If you have a life style that pleases you and you can support it then you don't need anything else.
I know people that load the family into an old car (easily described as a jalopy) and go for a Sunday afternoon drive. They pack a picnic lunch and have a wonderful day. I know other people that load the family into their luxury SUV and go for a Sunday drive. They stop in a high end restaurant and they have a wonderful day. I know people who have the shiniest boats and the best sails and they take their family and friends sailing and they have a wonderful time. I know others that have functional boats and they take family and friends sailing and they have a wonderful time. Is one scene better than the other? Not in my opinion. If you have a life style that pleases you and you can support it then you don't need anything else.
Online is just fine
Quality products can be found online and can be made offshore. Local outfits are not the only people who know how to build quality products. I'm going to take a wild guess that Gary Jobson does not post to a forum asking where to get sails. There is a price/vaule point that makes sense for each individual according to his or her own needs. One of the things that bugs me about these forums is the amount of "you must be a fool not to do it like I do it" responses. The guy has had good luck with CD. He is looking for other options. Telling him about how a racer changes sails every year based on the conditions at the Nationals is completely irrelevant. Ditto for telling him how a world class sailor does it. What's next? Only Raymarine is any good, only idiots buy Garmin?
Quality products can be found online and can be made offshore. Local outfits are not the only people who know how to build quality products. I'm going to take a wild guess that Gary Jobson does not post to a forum asking where to get sails. There is a price/vaule point that makes sense for each individual according to his or her own needs. One of the things that bugs me about these forums is the amount of "you must be a fool not to do it like I do it" responses. The guy has had good luck with CD. He is looking for other options. Telling him about how a racer changes sails every year based on the conditions at the Nationals is completely irrelevant. Ditto for telling him how a world class sailor does it. What's next? Only Raymarine is any good, only idiots buy Garmin?
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