Where has common sense gone?

John R. · Jul 14, 2007

common helpfullness

As a new sailor, I think that those with more experience have to recognize that we don't always think of everything and, also, that some of us very much appreciate advice and help.Maybe the sailor in the story told above tried to anchor near another boat in the hopes that the skipper would offer advice. Maybe the simple question, "Do you mind if I make a suggestion?" would have met with a warm response.Remember: We're all rank novices at something or another. We all need some help and advice in some aspect of life.

Bob V · Jul 14, 2007

Crab trap buoy

Maybe we should attach a crap trap buoy to the anchor line (with a very weak line). Boaters are programmed to avoid them like the plague. Also the weak line would ensure that if some other boat swings over your anchor during the night they would not unset your anchor.

Dan H · Jul 15, 2007

It's a shame

It's a shame you didn't lend a hand or give him some advice over the radio. After all, you were busy reading and having a glass of wine. Maybe your post to him could have included some text about how to anchor correctly.Well, at least we can depend on most people to help out on the water.What they did was stupid, granted, but is this the correct response?Ephesians 4:29.

Ross · Jul 15, 2007

Bronze is not a good choice of tooling

for machining rocks.

I have only been offered assistance one time. It appeared that I might need help and I thanked the man that came out to lend a hand explained what had happened and that I had an anchor down and would be able to sort out the mess. I had a jambed main halyard with the main half hoist. I had been completely out of control for a few minutes(seconds) when I decided to drop the hook. The anchor didn't set the first time I snubbed it so I payed out more rode and tried again and that time it held. But be rude to someone who offered me his hand? NEVER!!

Bill Roosa · Jul 15, 2007

The next evening we....

had a classic anchor. After battling our first summer thunderstorm (a story in itself) we turned into the Wacomoco River and anchored the boat with no fancy common sense issues. The Admiral brought the boat to a stop, I dropped the anchor to the bottom, payed out rode till we had a 7:1 scope and cleated it off, then backed it down with the engine. Even took some bearings of lights on shore to check if we drag. After about the best mushroom soup I think I've ever had we had a glass of wine and played Risk with the boys. Once it got completely dark the winds calmed down and I went topside to check the bearing to see if we had drug. I didn't really expect that we did but just trying to practice the skills once before I really needed them. Well those darn folks on shore had the audacity to turn off the lights that I was using for a bearing!!! I'm a little more selective in my choice of lights now.While the anchoring went fine the "drag bearings" where another of those common sense things that just escaped me. I mean of course folks will turn off their lights when they go to bed just like I do. Didn't think of it till it happened and it certainly is not written into any book I've read to chose lights that will be on at 0400 in the morning.

John R. · Jul 15, 2007

not all the same

Well, not everybody is the same, and just because some people are too arrogant or too insecure to accept advice doesn't mean everybody is. I know that I pump every experienced sailor I meet for their knowledge.I see it as in the martial arts. I'm pretty experienced in aikido - a "non-competitive" martial art. When I practice with somebody who's a beginner, I can tell pretty quickly if they want suggestions or not. And if I can't tell, I simply aske them if they'd mind a suggestion. And I always thank them because I know for sure that whatever mistakes they're making, I make the same ones except more subtly. So I learn from their mistakes too.I would think it would be similar in sailing. And just because the first nine people rejected any help doesn't mean the tenth one will. All you have to do is ask... If they say they don't want any help, then go on drinking your wine. But maybe they went off thinking to themselves, "what an a____. He saw we needed help and he didn't say a thing." Yes, they could have asked, but here's something else I've noticed: There's more than one experienced sailor who has an attitude towards those of us who are novices. I've even seen it in chandlries, where a sales person is very experienced. In general, I don't let that stop me from seeking a person's help or advice, but it is an obstacle and I can well understand why others would not ask, out of feeling put down or intimidated.John R.

Ed · Jul 15, 2007

maine sail has it right

Some times you got to know when to fold them. Recently I cut a charter short because of high wind . When at the dock two of our powerboats were getting ready to go out. I suggested a plan to deal with the wind and chop to one and got a know it all response ,so I offered the advise to the other boater ,who accepted it and thanked me . When the two boat returned we saw one very happy group and one very wet and upset one . I doubt the first boater will find a crew for awhile .

Ctskip · Jul 16, 2007

Obviously there are those that know everything,

then there are those who think they know everything. There are more, who know, they don't know everything, and are will and eager to listen to others. Some will listen even though they know everything. My advice is to not quit just because you've been flipped off. The few that listen and learn are worth the responses from the ignoramuses. Look at it from a school teachers view point. Imagine if they all felt that it's not worth being flipped off. Where would we be then? I just continue to offer advice, whether its asked for or not. I have a reputation for doing it. Do I care? No. Because there are the few that value my advice and some show their appreciation. I sleep better too! I also live better(less wrinkles) knowing I did what I thought was best for ALL concerned. Screw those people who won't give you the time of day. They'll get theirs. Follow your heart and you'll live a long and prosperous life. Please, continue to offer advice and help others, whether they ask for it or not. You'll sleep better knowing you did the right thing. Just my opinion. Didn't you ask for it? Oh well, you got it anyway. lol Go ahead, flip me off, I can take it. By flipping off, one is just bragging about their IQ. Keep it up, Ctskip

Bob V · Jul 16, 2007

Lesson from Aikido

John's post reminded me of something I learned when I used to train in Aikido. Someone asked the sensei why we followed the ritual rules of Japenese etiquite since we are all Americans and just want to learn a martial art. The explanation was that it was to protect the egos of those we train with. The amount of respect that you give to one another has nothing to do with your level of competence but rather is given unconditionaly to a fellow human being. The real trick is to offer advice without making the other lose face or acting in an arrogant manner.

Ctskip · Jul 16, 2007

I'll bet half the people at my club

don't know and can't understand half the words used in what we believe should be "common knowledge". I'll agree, there are some who don't deserve the time of day. They have no right being out in the public in the first place. I'm sure the problem that you are talkng about in boating, a trooper can say about people driving in cars. There is most definitely a lack of common sense out there. The less I have to do with the public, the better I like it. Unfortunately, we must get to our vessels somehow, and must encounter thoughtless people behind the wheel of motor vehicles. Everyday, we must deal with these people. At least on our boats, we can go below or adjust our course, so we can avoid them entirely. On land, we don't have that option. I use to take pills that made it possible to tolerate people and their short comings. I have moved on and don't let it get to me. No more pills. However my wife will disagree with me. Road rage is rampant out there. On the water we can pick and choose what idiots we want to deal with. Thats why I sail and motorcycle. No outside people involved. I find with a kind word, most just leave. Maybe we can come up with a pennant that says "don't bother". Keep it up, Ctskip The guy with no clue as to how to anchor. I would of told him there is a much better place over there around the bend.

jk kudera · Jul 16, 2007

Those guys in Maine

have relatives in NJ, just last night my friend said a "local boater" and his family did just what the Maine sailors did, however they complained that my friend had too much rode out and he was a W E B and should leave the area. They did move, anchored using only 10' of rode and no chain, then left the boat in 20 plus knot winds to go to the beach. Their boat broke loose, dragged into two others. I guess the WEB was still at fault! (WEB is a weekend bast***)

John R. · Jul 16, 2007

"Bumfuzzled"

I don't know if people in other parts of the country see the sailing magazine "Latitude 38", but a month or so ago they had a delightful article about a young couple in Chicago who were living the easy life. He was a stock broker and I forget what she was doing. They'd never set foot on a boat in their lives. One evening while eating at their local pizzeria, they decided "the heck with this", went down to Florida, bought a nice, big catamaran, came back to Chicago and sold all their stuff, went back to Florida, got ONE DAY of lessons on the cat, and then... sailed round the world!Some might be really angry at them, but I thought they were great (except for the fact that after sailing round the world, visiting all these different countries, they STILL thought that McDonalds and Taco Bell were the two best places to eat!!) I say good for them. I'm not belittling the many, many years of hard study and lessons that some sailors have undergone and not belittling the knowledge that they have acquired. But I still say that this couple's sense of adventure is great. And what they did and how they approached things is no knock on those who approach it differently.Oh, yes, and they named their boat "Bumfuzzled" because that was what they felt lots of the time.As for what one on this list says that every sailor must know before they go out on their own - I don't know some of that. But I'm 61 years old, have had a boat for a year and who knows how many more years I'll have before my health makes me stop sailing? I try to be courteous and safe and aware of others, but I know that there are mistakes I make. And what should I do? Not go out sailing till I become the expert sailor that I'm told I have to be first? I would suspect that many of these people also grew up around sailboats. I didn't; we didn't have the money or connections. So I have to learn by doing. Finally, in reply to "Maine" and others: I still think it's better to at least ask a person if they would mind a suggestion - and be rejected - than run the risk of not helping somebody who needs and wants the help. Yes, lots of times you can tell in advance that somebody doesn't want any suggestions. Like others, I try to stay as far away as I can from those types. But then, as I said before, there are also those who look down on people with less knowledge than they have. In one way or another, they put them down. Theirs is an even greater form of ignorance. I am not accusing anybody here of being like that, but I do think that we all should try to avoid both those pitfalls.

KayakDan · Jul 17, 2007

ASA 101

MaineSail,the thing that amazes me is that people venture out onto the ocean not having a clue about many of the items you mention in your list. It's not like you can pull over in the breakdown lane and figure it out. Would these people go out and jump into a Cessna and give it a go without instructions?? Before we set out on our own sailing,even though I had sailing experience on OPB,we both took the ASA 101 course. It's just common sense...oh wait....there's that phrase again! We're sailing out of Dolphin this weekend,maybe Goslings or Little Whaleboat on Friday night. Should we be looking for that pretty blue boat out there?

JungleJetJock · Jul 17, 2007

You'd be surprised

KayakDan, people have jumped into planes and tried to fly. They are sometimes successful at getting into the air but rarely successful at surviving the landing. They can learn what does what from books but without any actual experience to go on, landing becomes very difficult.

higgs · Jul 17, 2007

Flying and sailing

No way is sailing as complicated as flying an airplane. People do just jump on sailboats and figure them out. Not the way I would recommend, but it is done.Chay Blythe, a now well respected English yachtsman, jumped on a production sailboat for the first solo race around the world with his only credentials being rowing across the Atlantic. I suppose he did have some idea of how to trim sails, but he had verylimited experience. "A Voyage for Mad Men" is a good read about this and others on this race.there is an account of a guy, right after WWII desperate to get home who buys an old sailboat and crosses the Pacific w/o any experience. That book is called something like Deperate Voyage or Fantastic Voyage.

Joe · Jul 17, 2007

Watch and Listen

People talk of nautical skills and abilities. Notice different boats and those learning to sail. A particular size or price boat is not clear signal of any sailing ability. Some people have more ship than they can handle. Some people handle the ship they have. Judge yourself on this before you judge others. Most people continue to improve sailing capabilities. Some know mere speed is not a best test of sailing. Hear Ye. . . the tales? Watching and listening will tell you where sailors lie, what they really know, why you learn and when you need to give way. Always bear off the unknown ship with no helmsman! Or the ship and helmsman you wish to avoid. Sailing plays out in best script when one yearns to learn, has the experience and then enjoys ownership. With individual choice we sail together having harmony respecting and forgiving in the great waters of life. Hail the hearty, shore up the weak and God have Mercy on the rest!

Tom S · Jul 17, 2007

As Will Rogers said "Common sense ain't common"

Fact is that through the history of man there will always be those that just don't get it. There are those that take a look around and see things but can't process that information into useful or adjusted behavior. Its not that they don't see that all the other boats are lying bow into the wind, its just that they can't figure out why that would be a better way to try and drop their anchor (Duh!!)A good quote on common sense for this would be"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." - Don WoodThe worse part, which has already been mentioned, is the "know it all" that refuses to look around when something is not working and ask himself (or even better yet - those around him) "What am I doing wrong?"I have a collegue that always has this saying at the bottom of his emails"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Bob V · Jul 17, 2007

Take your lesson where you find them

I agree with mainsail on this one. You can learn a lot by rowing across the Atlantic that applies to sailing. The fact that he completed the trip and survived tells me that he must have known a bit before he left.I learned most of what I needed to know about sailing in a kayak and hang-glider, not at the same time.

Navigation, tides & currents, the way a sail works (same as a wing), etc. I also tried to keep an open mind and ask for advice from those that know.The first time I was "skipper" on a sailboat was an overnight rental of a Hunter 25 on Lake Washington. I was so ignorant (not stupid) that I had to ask how you put the sails on and what all those lines did. I'm still amazed that they let me rent the boat. They had my credit card and that was all the "certification" they required. My wife came along as ballast, she didn't know anything about sailing except that she trusted me. We figured it out as we went along and sailed upwind all the way to the north end of the lake where we dropped anchor and motored back to Yarrow Bay the next morning with no wind. We have a favorite truism on the subject which goes "Every time we go out in the boat, there is some fool who doesn't know what he's doing and more then once it has been us." There has been a lot of water pass by our keels since then as we worked our way up from rentals to a Mac 26S, Hunter 30, Catalina 350 and now we're thinking about trading in for a Catalina 42. If we had to know everything we needed before we started we would still be in the kayaks. Let's all try to have compassion for the ignorant, they are not all stupid or even rude but their egos are very fragile especially if the Admiral is watching. It is not always easy for them to take advice but we still should try to help when we can. Fortunately, I have a lot of funny stories about dumb things that I have survived and that can help to save the egos of those that need a bit of advice when I feel compelled to offer it.

Where has common sense gone?

John R.

Bob V

Dan H

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Ross

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Bill Roosa

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John R.

Ed

Ctskip

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Bob V

Maine Sail

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Ctskip

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jk kudera

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John R.

KayakDan

JungleJetJock

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higgs

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Joe

Tom S

Maine Sail

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Bob V