When will marine manufacturers get a clue?

[Rich Stidger]

OK, so last fall when I laid-up the boat for the winter, the propane solenoid worked. This Spring- DEAD!

Just another item on the list to be trouble-shot and fixed. :cussing:

The first clue, other than the fact that the stove wouldn't light, was that when I turned on the propane solenoid, I only got a 0.1 A increase in current draw on my house batteries. I suspected that the 0.1A was due to the indicator light and I expected that the solenoid would draw more like 1A.

Long story short- I found that a butt splice that connected the solenoid wires to the boat cable was corroded and broken. Exposing all of the connections, I renewed both of the butt splices.

However, I don't think this failure would have occurred if the duplex boat cable had tinned wire instead of non-tinned, and the gas solenoid (supplied by a marine manufacturer) had just plain copper wire. Of course this wire in a salt water marine environment corroded and turned black over the last 15 years. I had to scrape and clean the wire as best I could before re-crimping and sealing the crimped butt connector.

So I ask, "Why does everyone recognize that tinned wire is what should be used for anything in a boat, yet manufacturers use wire that is just plain 'ole copper?" This often applies to duplex boat cabling, but it is even more common to have an item light a light fixture or a gas solenoid that has just plain copper wire.

I'll go away now.....

 

[Bob J.]

However, I don't think this failure would have occurred if the duplex boat cable had tinned wire instead of non-tinned, and the gas solenoid (supplied by a marine manufacturer) had just plain copper wire. Of course this wire in a salt water marine environment corroded and turned black over the last 15 years.

So I've wondered about the wire issue seeing how I'll be re-wiring a good portion of our boat. If you use non-tinned wire & heat shrink/seal all the connections, is this an acceptable practice in lieu of tinned wire? Is non-tinned wire in violation of any ABYC standard?

 

[kloudie1]

Dunno, Rich.. Practical Sailor did a test of tinned and untinned in salt spray and found that the tinning was a little better, but not very much.. the one thing that they did note is that connections made up with anti-corrode paste were a lot better than dry. The untinned with paste was better than the tinned without., If I remember correctly.. I know that the ABYC allows untinned, and I know it was based on their study.. Yes, I do use tinned when I make new wires for stuff on the boat..
http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/34_6/psadvisory/Tinned-Wire_5632-1.html

 

[Ross]

I rather doubt that there exists such a thing as a "marine service" or "approved for use in wet areas " gas solenoid in the catalog. But 55 years ago we had military electronics gear that was coated internally with moisture and fungus proof varnish. That coating had to be repaired whenever repairs were made on the equipment. I can think of no reason such protection should no longer be standard for boats and electric equipment

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

In Rich's case and mine, the mfg ended the production run in 1997 so our boats are obviously that old or older. A lot has improved since then and I'm not certain this same practice is in use today. I'd bet most mfgs current production runs use tinned wire.

 

[Paul Brinkley]

Ross: "I can think of no reason such protection should no longer be standard for boats and electric equipment".

I can... its called "save a buck, make a buck"! Same for untinned wire. -Paul

 

[Rich Stidger]

...... But 55 years ago we had military electronics gear that was coated internally with moisture and fungus proof varnish. That coating had to be repaired whenever repairs were made on the equipment. I can think of no reason such protection should no longer be standard for boats and electric equipment

Ah, yes. Conformal coating. Used on circuit boards among other places. Great stuff unless you were the poor bloke who had to do a repair. You are right, Ross, the military knows how to spec equipment that will work in a hostile marine environment.

But all I want is to see reliable connections.

BTW, for all of the tinned connections that I have made in my lifetime, I have yet to need to re-do or repair due to corrosion. Not so with crimped non-tinned connections made by the manufacturer or builder. And I recognize the value of a sealed connection, but other than heat shrinking (without adhesive) over a terminal, I have never done anything else special.

 

[centerline]

regardless of why the manufactures and assemblers dont do a better job of insuring longevity in the work they do, you can make a good lifetime connection using copper wire that will last in any environment that tinned wire will.... and it takes so little more effort that you will never notice it was extra work.....

get some adhesive heatshrink tubing and crimp style connectors of the proper size for the wire you are working with.... and a tube of conductive electrical grease..... (do an internet search, there are several brands available)

all that you need to do extra is after you strip the wires bare for crimping, dip the bare ends in the tube of grease just enough to get a bit of lube on it, then crimp and seal as normal.
it takes so very little grease because when you crimp it, it squeezes in and around.... then seal with adhesive shrink tubing for a lifetime repair....
submerged or otherwise.

and when hooking up a toggle switch or any other places where the connection is exposed, add a smudge of the conductive grease before assembly.... it will still last years longer than without any protection at all.

 

[Ron20324]

Rich, We had a sign at work that said, "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about". In the 15 years since your boat was made the marine industry has developed better ways to do things and has incorporated them into more recent versions.

One might say, why weren't there seat belts on my '51 Chevy? I had a 55 Ford without them, but they seemed like a good idea, and I installed my own seatbelts. Except for race cars, belts were just not known in the auto industry. Once they found out they were a pretty good idea, they started using that knowledge and they are everywhere today. Same with tinned wire- live and learn. We're getting better living today through technology that was not even know in previous years.

Conversely, we could say, "why did you buy a boat that didn't have tinned wires, eh?"

 

[Ross]

Rich, this was long before printed circuit boards. Vacuum tubes, resistors, capacitors etc. all soldered in, all coated.

 

[Ross]

The 3M company produces a product called liquid electrical tape. It works almost too well. It is the very devil to remove for any purpose. but whatever has been coated will be in the same condition when you clean it as it was ten years earlier when you coated it.

 

[Benny17441]

I think the anticipated useful life of a propane remote switch solenoid is under 10 years. If they are supplied with plain copper wires that can last 15 years I don't see a design problem. I'm sure that we could build a much better boat nowdays, but the question is could we afford it? Boat design is based on compromises and with costs being a primary design consideration I think the Hunter Marine and other production manufacturers make good choices in using what has been proven to work while keeping costs down. My beef with production boat manufacturers is about sloppy construction and not with design and components, but that is another story.

 

[thinwater]

Dunno, Rich.. Practical Sailor did a test of tinned and untinned in salt spray and found that the tinning was a little better, but not very much.. the one thing that they did note is that connections made up with anti-corrode paste were a lot better than dry. The untinned with paste was better than the tinned without., If I remember correctly.. I know that the ABYC allows untinned, and I know it was based on their study.. Yes, I do use tinned when I make new wires for stuff on the boat..
http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/34_6/psadvisory/Tinned-Wire_5632-1.html

Actually, PS did a much more comprehensive test in 2010/2011 (over one year in hypersaline chamber, many variations). The conclusions were:
* Proper crimps do not fail. Slip-on conections do unless loaded with grease.
* Grease helps many places. Some are better than others.
* Copper wire is OK in dry locations, but will degrade exposed to salt. Tinned wire is better until the tin wears away. Tinned wire is easier to repair as generally the wires are still sound; with copper they are often corroded far under the insulation.

My boat has both. The copper is fine in the cabin, but not running to any wet location. I certainly wouldn't repair anything with copper wire if ANY corrosion was visible on the old wire.

 

[Steve Dion]

Now Rich, do you really think that after 15 years you really have any bitch? Welll I guess you do.

According to the PS review there was really very little difference in their test of tinned vs plain wire. I think most of us would be wise to seal all of our connetions as some other have mentioned (paint it on, spray it on or whatever it takes).

I am pleased when I don't have to mess with something for 10 years.

 

[RichH]

Boat manufacturers will get a clue .... when boat buyers are willing to spend $300,000 for a $100,000 boat for all the 'long lasting upgrades', etc.

Better to just face the facts that all 'electrical and electronic' gizmos are usually obsolete and 'shot' after about 10 years in the marine environment. Thats why they have online marine catalogues - to continually replace all the 'weak' crap and so you eventually wind up spending $300,000 for your original cost $100,000 boat. Besides, It keeps the Chinese economy well fired up.

 

[Stu Jackson]

All of the factory connectors on my new regulator fell off!!! ALL of them!!!

When I next replace my alternator, I'm making up bus bars for both the + and - connections so there's only ONE wire each to the back of the alternator.

I like liquid 'lectric tape, too, agree you have to be careful or you'll have black spots all over.

 

[Ross]

Copper wire and connections are very durable. I repair houses and have seen recepticles mounted in steel boxes in wet areas that had corroded to the point that the nails fastening them in place had rusted away but the circuit was still hot and had not tripped the breakers. Those things scare the bejebbers out of me.

 

[All U Get]

Hi Rich,
Like everyone else I spend my time learning how to do it better now while discovering why 25 years ago builders thought it was a great idea. Even when a tech explains how things work, I only grasp about 10%. Some times you just have to let it go. Please remind me of this when I get ranting about my boat.
All U Get
(When the old guy retires that knowledge goes with him)

 

[zeehag]

i have a 30+ yr old boat. waah, my wiring needs redone... ok--thankyou kloudie for the info on the tinned vs untinned wiring--as the tinned is nearly impossible to find in mexico, i will use nontinned with goop and smile my face off.....good info, thankyou!!
mebbe i CAN afford me boat, after all--nice to know, as i own it and sail it in oceans....

 

[Ross]

I once crimped two connectors to a piece of stranded #10 wire. One on each end. painted one with liquid tape and left the other bare. Then I dropped them into a jar of wet fertilizer and left them for six months. The bare one was green and mossy and other was clean. I cut through the crimp on each end with a jewelers saw. There was no sigh of corrosion in either crimp at 10x magnification. The bare wire on the unprotected end was a mess for a couple of inches under the insulation. Wire can't corrode if it is protected.