I have a 1988 boat. A 30ft O'Day to be precise. I have to assume my sails are original. The main has the O'Day logo. Visually, the condition of both sails is good. No stains, rips or noticable repairs. Both sails were inspected by a sail loft last spring with no problems reported. The issue I have is, should I replace the sails or not? I'm not into keeping up with the Yacht Club Set or anyone else for that matter. I'm also not interested in racing or squeezing that last fraction of speed from the boat. Will new sails give me more enjoyment from the boat - based on my level of needs (or lack of needs) as noted above? Or, should the "If it aint broke don't fix it" philosophy come into play? Thanks for any thoughts. Joe
When to replace sails
- Thread starter Joe Walworth
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Depends on your needs . . .
Joe, It sounds from your description of what you want (or don't want) to do, you could probably get another couple of years out of your sails. Have you had the boat long? If you can get a reasonable sail shape, you should be OK. Now that doesn't mean that you wouldn't enjoy a new set; especially if you have to do a lot of beating to get where you want to go. The sails on my boat are 22 years old and they show it in their shape: I cannot get a decent shape for good performance but I'm probably going to upgrade to a bigger+newer boat in the spring so I really don't care to replace mine.
Joe, It sounds from your description of what you want (or don't want) to do, you could probably get another couple of years out of your sails. Have you had the boat long? If you can get a reasonable sail shape, you should be OK. Now that doesn't mean that you wouldn't enjoy a new set; especially if you have to do a lot of beating to get where you want to go. The sails on my boat are 22 years old and they show it in their shape: I cannot get a decent shape for good performance but I'm probably going to upgrade to a bigger+newer boat in the spring so I really don't care to replace mine.
Not sure about shape
My sailing experience is somewhat limited. I'm not sure if I'm getting good, fair or poor shape. It does seem as though I need at least 10/12 knots to get some decent speed.
My sailing experience is somewhat limited. I'm not sure if I'm getting good, fair or poor shape. It does seem as though I need at least 10/12 knots to get some decent speed.
I just sent my Main
sail for the Mac26X into my loft for them to inspect. If you trust them, I do mine, for they reworked my jib a couple yrs ago. Knowing very little what sails should be like, the little Lateen sails on our small boats before this one didn't have much. My loft just emailed to say what my main needed, turns out it is some re-sewing, re-sizing, so for a hundred bucks or so they should be all I need. I don't race, and don't try to keep up with the big guys in my yacht club like you. Good Winds, Mel
sail for the Mac26X into my loft for them to inspect. If you trust them, I do mine, for they reworked my jib a couple yrs ago. Knowing very little what sails should be like, the little Lateen sails on our small boats before this one didn't have much. My loft just emailed to say what my main needed, turns out it is some re-sewing, re-sizing, so for a hundred bucks or so they should be all I need. I don't race, and don't try to keep up with the big guys in my yacht club like you. Good Winds, Mel
Choices
Like the engine in your car, there is a steady and relatively unnoticeable deterioration in performance with time and usage. If you are mostly interested in making the boat move or going from A to B, then it probably isn't worth the money to buy new sails. But be aware that the boat will never sail to her potential like this, and if you do ever buy new sails, you will notice a marked improvement in performance, just as you would with a new engine in a high-mile car.
Like the engine in your car, there is a steady and relatively unnoticeable deterioration in performance with time and usage. If you are mostly interested in making the boat move or going from A to B, then it probably isn't worth the money to buy new sails. But be aware that the boat will never sail to her potential like this, and if you do ever buy new sails, you will notice a marked improvement in performance, just as you would with a new engine in a high-mile car.
Ain't Broke, Don't fix
When the time comes get good measurements and go to an off shore loft and get new ones for half price. That's what make America great! Ask Walmart
When the time comes get good measurements and go to an off shore loft and get new ones for half price. That's what make America great! Ask Walmart
Offshore sails......
There is sailcloth and there is sailcloth ... and the 'offshore' stuff is often very inferior material that may look like sailcloth but ultimately doesnt hold shape nor hold its resistance to air flow 'through' the cloth. False economy is quite expensive and once something like this is discovered usually pride will prevent someone from such an admission. The far eastern sailcloth materials have historically been notorious crap. If there isnt a guarantee that the cloth is equivalent to Bainbridge, Marblehead, Contender, etc. all top line domestic products what makes you think that you somehow havent been 'taken'. You usually get what you pay for. If you believe that something is better because its cheaper, I know some people who can sell you a knock-off Rolex watch.
There is sailcloth and there is sailcloth ... and the 'offshore' stuff is often very inferior material that may look like sailcloth but ultimately doesnt hold shape nor hold its resistance to air flow 'through' the cloth. False economy is quite expensive and once something like this is discovered usually pride will prevent someone from such an admission. The far eastern sailcloth materials have historically been notorious crap. If there isnt a guarantee that the cloth is equivalent to Bainbridge, Marblehead, Contender, etc. all top line domestic products what makes you think that you somehow havent been 'taken'. You usually get what you pay for. If you believe that something is better because its cheaper, I know some people who can sell you a knock-off Rolex watch.
Sail shape
It’s not that easy to see when a sail is “Blown out”, and lost its shape, unless you see it side by side with a good sail. I like to look at pictures of racing sails in action, to get an idea of what to look for. Televised America’s cup racing coverage usually has some overhead helicopter shots that really show nice sails in action. I have included two links to pictures that show elements of good sail shape. What you want to see is the deepest curve or point of maximum draft of the sail well forward of the midpoint. Around 35% aft of the luff for a heasdsail, and about 40-45% aft for a mainsail. The last 30% of the sail should be relatively flat. What happens as the sail gets old, is that the draft moves back towards the middle of the sail, 50% or more, and the curve of the sail takes a more rounded shape, like the edge of a circle. The draft gets deeper as well. The damage here is that the sail will have much more drag which causes more heeling combined with less forward drive. In other words, you tip sideways, and slow down. It's not just about speed, there is a comfort factor also. Most people are really surprised at how much better the boat stands up to the wind and moves forward with a fresh set of QUALITY sails. I know I was. I like maximum sized sails with a little flatter cut so they work in light wind and I still don’t have to reef as early. As to whether it’s worth the money, only you can decide. I don’t have any money, or I’d be ordering new sails right now! http://na.northsails.com/Cruising_Sails/SolutionsAddingDraftStripes.htm http://dan.pfeiffer.net/p26/150b.jpg
It’s not that easy to see when a sail is “Blown out”, and lost its shape, unless you see it side by side with a good sail. I like to look at pictures of racing sails in action, to get an idea of what to look for. Televised America’s cup racing coverage usually has some overhead helicopter shots that really show nice sails in action. I have included two links to pictures that show elements of good sail shape. What you want to see is the deepest curve or point of maximum draft of the sail well forward of the midpoint. Around 35% aft of the luff for a heasdsail, and about 40-45% aft for a mainsail. The last 30% of the sail should be relatively flat. What happens as the sail gets old, is that the draft moves back towards the middle of the sail, 50% or more, and the curve of the sail takes a more rounded shape, like the edge of a circle. The draft gets deeper as well. The damage here is that the sail will have much more drag which causes more heeling combined with less forward drive. In other words, you tip sideways, and slow down. It's not just about speed, there is a comfort factor also. Most people are really surprised at how much better the boat stands up to the wind and moves forward with a fresh set of QUALITY sails. I know I was. I like maximum sized sails with a little flatter cut so they work in light wind and I still don’t have to reef as early. As to whether it’s worth the money, only you can decide. I don’t have any money, or I’d be ordering new sails right now! http://na.northsails.com/Cruising_Sails/SolutionsAddingDraftStripes.htm http://dan.pfeiffer.net/p26/150b.jpg
Cheap sails
I bought a 150% genoa a number of years ago from a very cheap, and widely advertised Far East sail company. It was completely blown out of shape in less than three years. Nearly worthless at that point. I switched to using my two-year-old North 135% because it was much faster and pointed much higher even in light winds. Retired the not so old 150%, until I replaced it with a Sobstad laminate.
I bought a 150% genoa a number of years ago from a very cheap, and widely advertised Far East sail company. It was completely blown out of shape in less than three years. Nearly worthless at that point. I switched to using my two-year-old North 135% because it was much faster and pointed much higher even in light winds. Retired the not so old 150%, until I replaced it with a Sobstad laminate.
Like said before....
it all depends on the shape the sail holds. Like humans they tend to get flabby as time goes by. However, a good sail loft can often snip and tuck a bit here and there to bring back the desired shape. A sail loft can't however, restore the damage caused by the UV sunlight. So if the sail has lost it's strenght and tears easily, it time for replacement. You could buy a sail you don't already have, such as a big genoa or a crusing chute and sock...to have fun with.
it all depends on the shape the sail holds. Like humans they tend to get flabby as time goes by. However, a good sail loft can often snip and tuck a bit here and there to bring back the desired shape. A sail loft can't however, restore the damage caused by the UV sunlight. So if the sail has lost it's strenght and tears easily, it time for replacement. You could buy a sail you don't already have, such as a big genoa or a crusing chute and sock...to have fun with.
Jon W.
Hi, This message is specifically for Jon, who posted about the "far east Company" if I am correct I know who you are speaking of and was about to shortly buy a new set of sails from them. Maybe you can elaborate on your expereince and the amount and type of sailing you do. I definatly don't want to get burned..... If you are uncomfortable posting here, feel free to contact me privatly at mbosi@hotmail.com
Hi, This message is specifically for Jon, who posted about the "far east Company" if I am correct I know who you are speaking of and was about to shortly buy a new set of sails from them. Maybe you can elaborate on your expereince and the amount and type of sailing you do. I definatly don't want to get burned..... If you are uncomfortable posting here, feel free to contact me privatly at mbosi@hotmail.com
Fix it before it is broken!
Joe: While it may be true that you do not need to fix it before it is broke, you do not need or want to wait until that time. You are probably looking at 6-8 weeks (maybe longer) between the time you have your last sail with a ripped/torn sail and the new one arrives. Just think if this happens on the 4th of July weekend! You will be without a sail for the best part of the sailing season. The other thing that you will find is the boat will still sit up while the wind is blowing (rather than being over on your ear). I agree that most of us can get a good 8-12 years out of sail, but we all want to push it to the limit (15-20). Be aware of the cheap sail syndrome. Puchase a high quality cruising like "Contender, Challenger, Bainbridge" etc (ask your sailmaker). Do not let someone convince you that all 6.5 oz cloth is the same because it ain't. There is also a lot of difference in the thread (this is the first thing to usually go). Considering you may spend $1800 for a good sail (based on your track record) that would cost you $100/yr for a good sail. Even if you decide to order a sail from someone else, get a little education from your local loft. They will/can show you the difference in the cloths. Cheap cloth may look and feel similar but that is usually the end of the comparison. High quality low modulus cloth is very tightly woven. Regardless of which way you pull on the cloth it really does not give. The cheeper cloths use more resins to stiffen the material, it may not stretch one way, but it will stretch in the other direction. Remember both of these material were rated at the same weight.
Joe: While it may be true that you do not need to fix it before it is broke, you do not need or want to wait until that time. You are probably looking at 6-8 weeks (maybe longer) between the time you have your last sail with a ripped/torn sail and the new one arrives. Just think if this happens on the 4th of July weekend! You will be without a sail for the best part of the sailing season. The other thing that you will find is the boat will still sit up while the wind is blowing (rather than being over on your ear). I agree that most of us can get a good 8-12 years out of sail, but we all want to push it to the limit (15-20). Be aware of the cheap sail syndrome. Puchase a high quality cruising like "Contender, Challenger, Bainbridge" etc (ask your sailmaker). Do not let someone convince you that all 6.5 oz cloth is the same because it ain't. There is also a lot of difference in the thread (this is the first thing to usually go). Considering you may spend $1800 for a good sail (based on your track record) that would cost you $100/yr for a good sail. Even if you decide to order a sail from someone else, get a little education from your local loft. They will/can show you the difference in the cloths. Cheap cloth may look and feel similar but that is usually the end of the comparison. High quality low modulus cloth is very tightly woven. Regardless of which way you pull on the cloth it really does not give. The cheeper cloths use more resins to stiffen the material, it may not stretch one way, but it will stretch in the other direction. Remember both of these material were rated at the same weight.
Invite your sailmaker to your boat
A sailmaker needs to see the sails on your boat to best assess them. And a good sailmaker would be glad to visit your boat for the inspection (if the distance is not too far.) Don't know a good sailmaker? Find one! That said, you can assess the shape of our own sails. The best way is lying on your cabin roof (for the main) or foredeck while under way in a moderate breeze. The previous posts describe what good shape is. Does the sail respond to tuning the sheet, traveler, outhaul, halyard, and cunningham (or the sail controls you have) to attain a good shape? A baggy shape with its maximum draft aft that cannot be tuned is the definition of a blown out sail. If your sail is tired, then it's just a matter of money versus enjoyment. When we replaced our blown out main with a new Doyle main, it added a knot plus to our speed in moderate winds, and reduced heel by 5%. That was a major improvement for our enjoyment of Lady Lilie day sailing, and cruising. On the other hand, we sailed a summer with the blown out main, and did enjoy our time on the water! In regular use, 10 years is supposed to be a good life for a dacron sail. But they deteriorate continually over time, and are sensitive to how they are used (flogging) and how they are protected from UV. So a good assessment is needed. David Lady Lillie
A sailmaker needs to see the sails on your boat to best assess them. And a good sailmaker would be glad to visit your boat for the inspection (if the distance is not too far.) Don't know a good sailmaker? Find one! That said, you can assess the shape of our own sails. The best way is lying on your cabin roof (for the main) or foredeck while under way in a moderate breeze. The previous posts describe what good shape is. Does the sail respond to tuning the sheet, traveler, outhaul, halyard, and cunningham (or the sail controls you have) to attain a good shape? A baggy shape with its maximum draft aft that cannot be tuned is the definition of a blown out sail. If your sail is tired, then it's just a matter of money versus enjoyment. When we replaced our blown out main with a new Doyle main, it added a knot plus to our speed in moderate winds, and reduced heel by 5%. That was a major improvement for our enjoyment of Lady Lilie day sailing, and cruising. On the other hand, we sailed a summer with the blown out main, and did enjoy our time on the water! In regular use, 10 years is supposed to be a good life for a dacron sail. But they deteriorate continually over time, and are sensitive to how they are used (flogging) and how they are protected from UV. So a good assessment is needed. David Lady Lillie
David makes a VERY important point .....
Sailmaker AT the boat. This means 'service' that you get from a local sailmaker whether from a large or teeny loft. Due to 'construction anomalies', sails change shape and sometimes can be easily and cheaply corrected by very simple 'adjustments'. Any local loft will have the records (now a computer output) of the shape characteristics and should be able to restore the 'shape' easily/cheaply and for quite some time. A sailmaker living halfway across the earth cannot do this. An example of such 'adjustments' would be with a 'bolt-roped' dacron sail (typically a mainsail). Constant stretching of the boltrope causes the boltrope to shrink which causes 'draft aft and deep draft' .... a good sailmaker can 'ease' such a sail back to decent shape in about an hour by cutting and handsewing about 10 stitches of sail-twine. Try getting this service from a 'mail order' loft.
Sailmaker AT the boat. This means 'service' that you get from a local sailmaker whether from a large or teeny loft. Due to 'construction anomalies', sails change shape and sometimes can be easily and cheaply corrected by very simple 'adjustments'. Any local loft will have the records (now a computer output) of the shape characteristics and should be able to restore the 'shape' easily/cheaply and for quite some time. A sailmaker living halfway across the earth cannot do this. An example of such 'adjustments' would be with a 'bolt-roped' dacron sail (typically a mainsail). Constant stretching of the boltrope causes the boltrope to shrink which causes 'draft aft and deep draft' .... a good sailmaker can 'ease' such a sail back to decent shape in about an hour by cutting and handsewing about 10 stitches of sail-twine. Try getting this service from a 'mail order' loft.
I Agree with CLARK...
I think youve described your situation well..."...if it aint broke, dont fix it". Your boat sounds fine, and for routine nice family sailing. Maybe a look at stays & other mast adjustments could be a greater need than "new sails". Ive seen some boats sail very well with patched, stretched, flimzy looking sails. But its all about having fun sailing...not who has the prettiest sails. Happy Sailing to you and yours !!
I think youve described your situation well..."...if it aint broke, dont fix it". Your boat sounds fine, and for routine nice family sailing. Maybe a look at stays & other mast adjustments could be a greater need than "new sails". Ive seen some boats sail very well with patched, stretched, flimzy looking sails. But its all about having fun sailing...not who has the prettiest sails. Happy Sailing to you and yours !!
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