When right-of-way goes wrong

ChuckThomas · Dec 10, 2007

fun to listen

This past summer I was anchored of the MS coast near Gulfport. It was fun listening to the foreign freighter captains coming into the Gulfport channel talking with the Cajun accent tow guys running East/West on the ICW. They could tell I guess by radar and AIS if they were on a collision course 45 minutes to an hour ahead of time. One vessel would back off their speed a little to let the other pass. Very courtious but also very humorous. I have run the ICW along the coast alot and have always found the tow captains to be very nice and professional.

Fred Ficarra · Dec 10, 2007

Yeah, long gone.

Is it just me or is anyone else out there angered that we pleasure boaters are now treated as terrorists around a military vessel or facility? Grrrrr As I type I'm wearing a ball cap from my son's ship, the USS Lake Erie CG70 for Gawds sake,,,,,. And around here we have a LOT of military that we now have to stay clear of. Did I say GRRRRR?Funny too, because most folk around here work for the military. Funny too, that some terrorist a half a world away could cause such a knee jerk reaction in what used to be a free country. GRRRRRRRR!!!

Rick D · Dec 10, 2007

Another Incident

This year we were returning to Long Beach CA from Catalina. We were passed by a container ship and a few minutes later heard him call to another ship in front to the effect he would pass starboard. The other captain said "no, no; pass to port, pass to port! He replied, "no, I pass to starboard or you speed up!" The other captain shouted "No! Port, port!" The reply was "no, starboard or you speed up!" This went on and I watched these guys get really close on the radar to the point the targets merged. At one point, I could hear the collision alarms going off in the bridges as they talked (yelled). Needless to say, the overtaking vessel did pass to starboard. It was a lot like a case of road rage and I never could figure out why either side was favored. I suspect all the shouting was monitored by traffic control and that the pilots may have had some choice words when they came aboard. Rick D.

Mikado55k · Dec 10, 2007

Commercial Traffic

In the summer of 2003 we left Port Canaveral, Fl in the late afternoon headed north to MA. We cleared the entrance markers and sailed NE about 40 miles to pick up the Gulf Stream. About 11:00 pm we picked up a ship on the radar and shortly after could see their deck and green nav light. We made a few calls on ch 16 VHF to make sure they could see us (56' ketch) with no response. We felt we were comfortably to their starboard but continued to watch as they came closer. All of the sudden the container ship turned directly towards our bow, probably about 1 mile away. We decided that the safest direction was to starboard so we fired up the diesel and quickly were doing about 9 knots. We continued to try and raise them on ch 16 but no answer. The ship passed by us on our Port side about 1/4 mile away and as she went by, we could see in the pilot house which was empty!! Our only guess was that the ships autopilot was steering and made a course correction to enter the Port Canaveral shipping lane.

r.w.landau · Dec 10, 2007

No one has the right of way! Many have kind of

said it but the Fact is no one has right of way. Vessels are given Stand-on and give-way designations. When that fails, everyone is responsible to avoid a collision.I sail with the knowledge most people not only don't know the rules but don't care about the rules. I sail ready to give-way to anyone that enters my space or even looks like they will.Like someone else said, if the guy passing is looking at my green light, that is what he has, a green light. If I am looking at a green light, I Stand-on until I know the guy operating the other boat doesn't know better then I give way.(I am not including the up wind, down wind rules. For this, starboard tack and even more the leeward starboard tack is the most stand-on positions and takes all the major considerations in a sailing mishap)The next Question!Do you know how to giveway? There is a proper way to Give-way to another vessel. Which way should you turn?Turn on your moron deflectors and always know that the moron deflectors don't work that well. I am working on a moron deflector but the existing Smith & Wesson still has my idea beat.

Be safe, stay at the dock so that I can sail!r.w.landau

Alan · Dec 10, 2007

Fred, I'm with you.

This is the result of politicians dealing the fear card. I can remember just a few years ago sailing up to the Statue of Liberty and dropping anchor on the back side of Liberty Island, spending the weekend there on the hook and then moving on with our family cruise. These days you can't get near her. Like I'm a terrorist with plans to blow her up! What has this country sunk to. Politicians pushing the fear button to try convince the masses they're really worth something. Freedom these days is just a word.

Maine Sail · Dec 10, 2007

Well...

Quote: "Cracked a copy of the COLREGS book lately?"Have you Trevor???When there is such a thing as "right of way" except for this one little sub section of the inland rules (below) please let me know!COLREGS (right of way situation)

ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing. [Inld] There is no such thing as a flat out "right of way" except for the situation above and that is for inland waters, on certain rivers, or only ones which the Secretary has deemed as such. The wording used in the COLRES is a "stand on" or "give way" vessel and the general tone of the COLREGS is to avoid collisions first by following the "stand on" or "give way" fundamentals set forth in the COLREGS. If there was in fact an actual "right of way" you would not legally be bound to alter course and as such if an accident ensued you would not, or could not, be held liable because the law would be on your side. With the stand on / give way wording anyone can be still be at fault if you did not FIRST attempt to avoid a collision even if you were the "stand on" vessel! The term "stand on" is the preferred status for a given situation under the COLREGS but the ultimate rule is that you avoid collision!!!! There is a BIG difference between the term "right of way" and "stand on"..

r.w.landau · Dec 10, 2007

Benny ,Toyo is technically the Stand-on Vessel.

He most likely will stand on!r.w.landau

r.w.landau · Dec 10, 2007

MaineSail, I was very close to an incident in

Miami in 2002 and watched the vessels and listened to the radio. The Coast Guard monitored the whole situation and gave bad advice to the give-way vessel, which the give-way vessel disputed and was correct that the proper turning direction would have caused a collision, and that the give-way had tried to talk to the stand-on vessel for about 15 minutes, asking intent and coarse of the stand-on vessel. No response. I have no doubt that the give-way vessel filed a complaint that was well documented by the Coast Guard. I bet the Captain of the Stand-on vessel paid in some way for his lack of response to the radio calls from the container ship and the Coast Guard.r.w.landau

CalebD · Dec 10, 2007

I have read the vibrant prose of the COLREGS

though not extensively as it is full of other useful terse references: CFR 42.01/02 etc. As useful as all of the detailed rules of the road are and knowing what lights a tug pushing 6 barges would show I am with Tom from SF in that Rule 8 which states something like: "When all else fails you are responsible to take action to avoid a collision". The translation to non-legalese English should be: "If your boat is smaller and more manouverable than ANY commercial or especially military vessel then stay the hell out of the way." This goes for all boats bigger (or smaller) than you and includes: tugs, ferries, ocean tugs, fishing vessels, cruise ships and destroyers on down to out of control power boats. I believe that the Admiralty courts recognize that "any reasonable and possible means for avoiding a collision" is the responsibility of each skipper. Blame may be laid on both sides in the case of a collision and if you did not act in a "reasonable" manner you will receive more percentage of blame. So watch out and read your Coastal Pilot and know your liabilities before you have to guess. My first instinct is to change course or come about when commercial traffic comes my way.One day maybe I should try to get my CG licenses but no, I have too many sailboats to take care of.

r.w.landau · Dec 10, 2007

As Tom said, Communication helps.

If I am a sailboat at 4 knots, 2 miles out crossing a ship doing 15 knots, I cannot get out of the way but quick communication to the approaching ship can help both parties in knowing ability and intent. Besides, the Coast Guard will have it on record when the freighter pile drives you to the bottom.

r.w.landau

Ross · Dec 10, 2007

R.W. While the ship is traveling 2 miles you can

travel .6 miles if that isn't enough to get you clear then you were clear at the start.

sand sailor · Dec 10, 2007

its my understanding that sail boats

not under power (motoring) have the row over powered craft.but common sense and the law of tonnage applies

Paul4414 · Dec 11, 2007

Common sense needed to aoid collisions

When you look at Rule 2 you will see that even though there might be rules to follow, you are told that you may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.I think that this is what we older sailors used to refer to as common sense or just plain courtest needed to protect our boats and those on her. I would rather give up so called "right of way" rather than have to swim away.Captain Paul HarminaUSCG Masters/v Lady SaraRULE 2RESPONSIBILITY (a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

Trevor23800 · Dec 11, 2007

Mission accomplished with this one...

... and it's only Tuesday! Thanks for all the responses. My goal with these weekly topics is to generate discussions - I'm pleased with this one!BTW Main Sail, like many here, although I have a Master's license and keep a copy of the COLREGS aboard my boat, I don't claim to be better informed than anyone else and I'm not looking for one "right answer".Carry on....Trevor

Doug L · Dec 11, 2007

clueless

I have found that many powerboaters are absolutely clueless about sailboats, cannot understand that controlling a sailboat is somewhat different than driving a car. Many boaters are also clueless about who has the right of way. I try first to follow right of way rules, but mostly I just try to stay out of the way as much as possible instead of counting on getting the right of way.

Stu Jackson · Dec 11, 2007

clueless, too, two

They are more clueless about the effects of their wakes, because they're so busy rushing forward that they never look behind them. Why bother looking at the damage they leave behind...

When right-of-way goes wrong

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