When is it too windy? - from a newbie

[Ross]

We have gotten hammered a few times and Nancy now says that she has more confidence in the boat than she has in herself. She knows that the boat can shrug off some rough weather and the gusts don't accumulate but it still scares her. She is determined to develope her confidence in the boat and in herself and just hopes she doesn't drown first.

 

[bobh40]

I have an 88 H40. been out in winds up to about 33knots

its a very capable boat and stiff. Takes a lot to make it heel. for newbies ...its comfortable up to about 23+k when its starts to heel more (depending on point of sail). I try not to tkae first timers out of 20 knots. the worst is gusting winds which you'll want to avoid till you get comfortable

your bigger challenge will be entering and exiting your slip in the wind conditions... takes some getting used if you've had a smalled boat... be aggressive on the throttle or you'll get spun around

 

[Dan Johnson]

Just remember...

There's a lot of great "going out" advice here, but...unlike the Coasties...you gotta come back too.

Wrestling that new-to-you 40 footer back into your slip in 20 plus knots of wind will give your neighbors siezures at best. Keep that in mind and have a docking plan in your head and explain it to your crew well before it gets to the shouting and jumping about stage. Keep your insurance card handy too.

 

[Stu Jackson]

If you left the cars in the 10 knot position instead of moving them back to flatten the sail you would have problems driving the boat

Uhm, that's just wrong. Moving the jib leads aft does NOT flatten the jib, moving them FORWARD does that.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I hate to make assumptions, but you're right...

you gotta come back too...Wrestling that new-to-you 40 footer back into your slip in 20 plus knots of wind will give your neighbors siezures at best.

One would assume that the owners have taken the boat out and can bring it back to the slip. They did mentioned they'd been out in 10-15.

If they haven't then I feel safe to say that we would ALL recommend practice, practice, practice: docking.

Heck, maybe they have an upwind slip - how do we know?

 

[Joe]

Uhm, that's just wrong. Moving the jib leads aft does NOT flatten the jib, moving them FORWARD does that.

Heh, heh.... should get a lot of comments on that statement.

 

[tommays]

Stu

If you move them forward it changes the angle of attack and pulls down more while allowing a fuller sail for more power

If you move them aft or (BACK) it makes the sail flat taking power out of it

When were are reaching and the sail is eased, to much wind spills out of the upper 1/3 of the sail so we change to a snatch block on the toe rail that is in the correct position to pull down the upper area of the jib and make it work

 

[Warren Milberg]

To me, it's "too windy" when you think it's too windy. This is a moveable threshold that will change as you get more experience. Go with your instincts.

 

[Nik]

As a newbie... put in a reef and take her for a spin. I'll take 15 -20 straight up in my 26', a great ride... Over 25 and I chicken s**t out, loose sail area and run for port; Lake Michigan gets NASTY FAST... Though, I have been on 30 -50 footers and seen the lake at 12'+, white knuckle, and stains in my shorts. Bottom line, take it easy and be safe... Better to come home and Sail another day. Work into your comfort level and ENJOY....

 

[caguy]

The wind does not bother me, its the wind wave plus the swell that makes it uncomfortable. It also depends on the direction of the wind and the swell. Maybe not so much in a larger boat but in a smaller boat it just isn't as much fun. That is one of the reasons that Long Beach Harbor is so nice. You can enjoy some stiff winds without worrying about getting knocked over by a big swell.
When it comes to docking I agree it practice, practice, practice and the hope that the wind is in the same direction you rehearsed.

And remember no cameras allowed while you are practicing :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjmQohPTgAA

 

[richk]

It's too windy when...

Go out and try it with just the headsail. If you need more sail, raise the main.

you are uncomfortable. Sorry to seem trite, but that's how it was for me. With our first boat 10 knots was too much. We were new. Now 20 knots is easily doable on our bigger boat plus years of being "out there." Unfortunately the only sure way to know if it's too windy is to find out the hard way. Then you know what you can and can't do or will or won't do. sometimes the best laid plans for a comfortable sail turn into an uncomfortable one. experience is the best teacher. with your new 40 footer one poster suggested just use the jib. that's reasonable, if you think it is.

sailing is truly fun. for me it puts the rest of life aside.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Tommays ... I've got to go along with Stu!

Which really gives me pleasure to say because when we are in the War Room I can't say that very often! You really need a copy of Don Guillette's Sail Trim Guide and Chart which you can buy on this web site. Do it soon!

You are right that the track setting at 10 k would not be the same as the track setting at 20 k. However, your track for the jib fairlead should not (significantly) affect the angle of attack under any setting fore or aft unless your track is really messed up. You are right that changing from the inboard track to the outboard rail will change the angle of attack.

That said, moving the fairlead aft lowers the angle of the jib sheet which pulls the foot in tension and allows the leech to open (because you are relieving the tension on the leech). Opening the leach allows twist. You want twist because the true wind is normally stronger closer to the head of the sail. Twist enables you to power the entire sail from clew to head.

Moving the fairlead forward tensions the leech and eliminates twist which I suppose is what you mean by 'flattening' the sail. I wouldn't call that flattening. I would call that stalling the head sail. (I normally think of 'flattening' in reference to the main sail only by reducing draft when tightening the outhaul.)

What I have never been entirely clear about is the method you would use to 'depower' the head sail when there is too much wind for the amount of sail you have up. In my opinion, if you move the fairlead forward, you are stalling the sail which will give you less power but more heeling - not a good combination. If you move the fairlead aft to the correct position, you would have a fully powered headsail, but then you may be over-powered which means you should have less sail area up.

From my windsurfing days, I know that if you over-tighten the downhaul, the leech opens up dramatically which also reduces the power of the sail making it more managable in over-powering conditions. So I would translate that to my fairlead setting on the boat by moving it further aft to a point beyond the correct setting, in order to allow enough twist to let the upper portion of the sail to luff slightly. Not necessarily good for the sail but more managable in over-powering conditions.

I'd love to hear more comments about the fairlead setting in overpowering conditions ... not necessarily a highjack of the thread since it applies to the sailors anticipated conditions. Since today is Saturday, I would hope the author of this thread is sailing! I wish I were ... alas, our boat will be on dry land until the lake fills up enough to allow us to splash. I'm hoping it is by the end of April! :cry:

 

[dubh]

Hunter 40

We had a 40'. Usually ran her with a 140 genoa; comes with a 110 standard, you should find out what you're running. Biggest wing we ran was 37 kts, 3-5' seas. A rough ride, but fun.
First, check the weather. Make sure your comfortrable with what's coming next.
What you may try is to reef the main all the way, and get comfortable with that. Find how close to the wind you can run; check and record your speed; run downwind as well, with the main reefed.
Next, let out the headsail, 20% or at a time, and record that. Practice winching in the head sail, into and off wind. Get comfortable with that. Get the crew into all this; will reduce anxiety.
A deep keel 40' is a heavy boat, but they will run fast. You may need to know how to get somewhere in a hurry, safely, so it's good practice. Keep a log, and know what you're all, capt, skipper, and boat, able to do.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I agree with Scott

The issue on the jib fairlead position is essentially the leach. One could argue til the cows come home that the angle of attack is changed, but that's only because jib fairlead tracks aren't straight when it comes to the trigonometry of a line between the forestay and the jib fairlead when the fairlead gets moved. If the jib tracks were in line (same angle of track to forestay) with the original position, this would be true, but no boat I know of is wide enough for this to happen. Think of this from a bird's eye view. But that's NOT the point of this discussion.

If you move the jib fairlead forward, the leach tightens, as Scott has correctly noted. I don't particularly call that stalling the sail, but it will actually do that and will also loosen the foot if you do it too much. So, he's right, that could be called stalling.

I don't have that "stalling" "option" because the way my two jibs are cut and the length and position of our jib tracks, I simply cannot move the fairlead any further forward because they stop there(!); we only have a 110 and a 95. Those with larger overlapping headsails over the size of 110s can easily move the car too far forward to exhibit this example. The leach gets tight, but the foot opens and flaps around. Try it on your boat.

If you move the fairlead aft, the leach will open starting at the top and the foot will tighten. Too far aft and the leach will flutter.

For any given wind strength, the "proper" setting of the jib is to balance the foot and the leach tension, primarily the leech tension.

And, of course, for any individual setting (jib fairlead position) this correct position will change with varying wind strengths.

When the wind gets too strong for your sail set, you have two choices (ignoring the mainsail for the moment):

1. You can furl it if you have a roller furler (not a roller reefer). Accordingly, you'd need to move the fairlead to compensate for the change in the clew position to balance the leach and the foot.

2. If you only have a hank-on sail, so you can't change the amount of sail that's there, you move the jib fairlead AFT to open up the leach and dump air from the top of the jib to depower it.

For Joe and Tommays: you're right that IN BETWEEN these basic large movements of the jib fairlead positions there are adjustments that CAN be made to the jib. My point earlier and here is that the gross settings do what I describe. The "fine tuning" that's available is a completely different subject.

They've written BOOKS about this.

 

[bffatcat]

When to reef

Depends on Your boat: Depends on your crew: A hunter 40 with 6' 6" draft should be fine
in 20 kts with the 130. If its not reef the main. or take it down. If you dont have roller furl
you should add a working jib. If it looks breezy hank on the working jib. I sailed without roller
furl for over 50 years but finally added it last season: Getting old. As far as the rollerfurl goes
I never sail with it partially furled I dont like the shape. I would rather reef the main or take it down. roller furl is strictly a work saver for me.

 

[tommays]

Well

We don't have furling we run a light 150 up to 9 knots and a heavy 150 up to 20 knots and then its 100 % and we start going for reefs

As the wind speed increases even with a 3DL sail you have to move the car back to keep the correct shape

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Tommays, you've got that right ...

moving the fairlead aft in windy conditions is necessary for the correct sail shape. The principal reason (I think) is that true wind speed normally increases higher up the rig. You want to establish the sail shape based on the apparent wind. Think of the separate vectors of true wind and apparent wind. At the lower portion of the sail, the apparent wind is forward because true wind is lower, lets say as an assumption that it is at about 30 degrees off the bow. As you get to the top of the rig where the true wind is stronger the vector of the apparent wind is further aft, lets say about 45 degrees off the bow. The twist in the sail optimizes the power throughout the range of the sail. If the leech was too tight (fairlead too far forward), then the top of the sail would be oriented the same as the bottom and the upper tell tales would indicate a stall condition ... less power and more heeling. This is a common occurence.


I used to be more confused about twist ... I used to think that you wanted to induce twist in order to depower in windy conditions. It wasn't until reading Don's guide that I understood that correctly induced twist optimizes power. I used to understand it instinctively when windsurfing. Windsurfing gives you much more direct input from sail shape. On a windy day, if you rig the sail with too little downhaul, you have a tight leech, no twist, you feel overpowered, yet you are slow and the board just wants to round up making the whole thing nothing but a struggle. Go back to the beach, put another inch of downhaul in the rig, the leach loosens, the sail opens at the top, you sail fast, the board feels perfectly balanced under your feet, you feel no sense of strain even in the gusts, the rig feels light in your hands, it is virtually orgasmic! If you end up tightening the downhaul too much, the rig feels light in your hands but very squirrely, you feel a distinct lack of power when the wind eases and more unstable when it gusts, there is only a narrow range where you feel balanced. It can help (more twist) if your sail has too much area for the wind conditions but it isn't optimal. I don't get that direct feedback on our boat so it seems like you have to watch for the signs.

We also have hanked-on headsails, 150 genny and a 110 jib, and my jib track has the push-pin settings so you have to guess at the position and can't fine tune it until the next tack, in which case the wind is never the same anyway, so our twist setting is always hit or miss. Besides, Sue gets impatient if I obsess over it! We don't even have the advantage of an inboard track, our track is set on the rail. It will take some time before I get to make all the modifications that I have in mind!

 

[Nereussailor]

20 miles per hour sounds like the fun is just starting. Reef if you need to but remember, it's always fun to have the rail buried in the water.

Dave

 

[lefty sailor]

too windy

As another poster said--it is too windy when you think it is. But sooner or later that lovely Sunday sail that started out in 10 knot winds will end up in 20 knot plus so you had better become comfortable with what the boat can do and what you can do or someone will get badly hurt.

Go out on a nice day and reef the main even if it is only blowing 8 or 10. Get practice in doing it so when it becomes necessary it will be second nature to you. The first time to reef is not when you have your neighbors on board (or your boss) and the sky turns black and Mother Nature decides to punch you in the face.

 

[KandD]

Thanks for all the info; we tried to go out, but the seas beat us. We got about 200 yards out of the marina before heading back in. It was less winds and more swells that sent us back in, the seas were 3-5'. I went out with the plan just to run under the genoa but the halyard got wrapped around a spreader and I couldn't free it in those seas. I ended up just tying down the sail with the dock-line until we got back in. I am REALLLY wanting a roller furler right about now. I can reef my genoa though, it has two sets of reef points, maybe I should weave a line through it that I can then clip into form a new tack and clew?

Ya'll were right about the docking, it took two tries but went fairly smoothly the second time. We're in a double slip, so we dock on the port side, nose in. The winds were coming right across the dock pushing us off and towards the other boat. My docking procedure is forward spring immediately followed by an aft line which then holds the boat against the dock while I get the bow lines on. I think I am going to mark my lines so as the boat pulls into the slip with the spring line slipping through, whoever is handling that line knows exactly where to cleat it off. On a calm day, I want to take the boat out and just get the hang of backing up; it just doesn't seem to respond at all. I'm wondering if it's just a characteristic of my feathering prop...