Wheel Pilot not responsive enough , requires modification

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

Running out to do some fishing so I don't have time for a long response. We had the same issue with the ST4000. We upgraded to the ACU-200 but still ran the wheel pilot. This gives us the ability to upgrade to a below deck in the future if needed.

Don't connect a below deck unit to the quadrant. Add a tiller arm. This can be difficult because you have to drill through the rudder post.

But first try adding a rudder position sensor. These can make all the difference.

Good luck

 

[Meriachee]

As mentioned, it’s not that easy. The only way it might work would be to craft a set of connectors that could be swapped. The thoughts of being in a confined space in a bouncy boat dealing with a screwdriver and screw terminals on a thousand dollar drive unit aren’t something very appealing.

 

[jssailem]

Our boats challenge us to decide - compromise - the equipment we add.

The wheel pilot (and I think Raymarine EV100 is one of the best options) has

1. a conservative power demand,
2. will keep the boat on a set course or follow the wind angle,
3. is relatively easy to install for a DIY sailor,
4. has been improved with some of the part changes (i.e. new Mk2 version of ST4000, EV100 sensor, SeatalkNG - NMEA2000)
5. but also compromised (Mk2 plastic eccentric idler vs ST4000 stainless, less dense plastic clutch arm).

The little motor provides a well geared powerful turning force to the wheel but it is no match for an 8 ft wave pushing your stern around. That is when you need to take control and stand watch. I think of the AP as a tool that simplifies my cruising life 80% of the time. That is real freedom when you are sailing solo (even it the Admiral is on board but siting down in the cabin).

Out in the Ocean when the swells are constant, the waves are big, power consumption is a concern, and the passage is many hours on a single tack the Windvane can be the sailors best friend.

 

[dlochner]

As mentioned, it’s not that easy. The only way it might work would be to craft a set of connectors that could be swapped. The thoughts of being in a confined space in a bouncy boat dealing with a screwdriver and screw terminals on a thousand dollar drive unit aren’t something very appealing.

I'm not following you here. If both units are installed to be fully functional and on separate power supplies, then it should be just a matter of turning off one AP and turning on the other. Connections to the MFD, Heading Sensor, and rudder sensor should be on the N2K network so both AP computers can receive the data.

Perhaps the RM sensors don't use N2K, so then it would be necessary to fiddle with wires.

 

[Meriachee]

The binnacle would likely only have, say, one P70 control head. If you tried to run one, say Ev100, with a wheel motor and a rudderstock motor, you’re changing wires. If you tried to run two EV100’s, you’re changing SeaTalk cables.
Nobody is likely to have two P70s on the binnacle, although I’m sure there are folks prepared to throw down that kind if cash.

 

[SycloneDriver]

On my old ST6000+ the rudder angle sensor connects directly to the AP computer. I'm unsure if the data is on the network but I suspect it is, however I still think both AP computers would be looking for the analog input. Isn't the rudder sensor an option? If the rudder angle sensor is optional leave it disconnected on the backup unit and it should function without that input.

 

[destiny12]

I had the same problem on my boat, and it got far worse when I replaced the ST4000 with the SPX-5 unit - Raymarine put some more "protection" in for the small motor. It didn't matter what I did to balance the sail plan, the wheel pilot just couldn't handle it. I changed to a below deck unit (type 1 linear drive) and all my problems were solved.

Thks on the advise.
Can you share some pictures on how you fitted the linear drive

 

[dlochner]

The binnacle would likely only have, say, one P70 control head. If you tried to run one, say Ev100, with a wheel motor and a rudderstock motor, you’re changing wires. If you tried to run two EV100’s, you’re changing SeaTalk cables.
Nobody is likely to have two P70s on the binnacle, although I’m sure there are folks prepared to throw down that kind if cash.

Thanks, I am more familiar with the B&G/Simrad APs. On these units the controller is located in the MFD and is interfaced with the AP computer with NMEA 2000. When I installed my AP, the computer and drive unit were installed on a separate circuit from the rest of the electronics, so it could be shut off and everything else continues to work. This also allows me to shut off the power hungry AP if necessary and hand steer.

The B&G AP can also be controlled by the Triton 2 instruments so long as there is another controller online, i.e., the MFD or a separate AP controller.

 

[jviss]

Perhaps the RM sensors don't use N2K, so then it would be necessary to fiddle with wires.

Bingo.

But I still don't get wy one would want dual-redundant AP systems. What, exactly, is the fault you're protecting against? By my knowledge of these systems, the most likely component to fail is the drive, either the wheel drive (which has seemingly infinite faulure modes) or the linear drive. One occasionally hears of other components failing, but not nearly at the rate of the drives.

I was happy to remove that eyesore from my wheel when I went to below-decks on my C36. I never looked back.

There are lots of things on the boat that can fail; few rise to the level of criticality that they require dual-redundant systems. When the AP fails, you can hand-steer. You can also lock the wheel and trim so it tracks - actually, more satisfying than AP.

I know there are plastic gears in my Raymarine linear drive that can fail. I carry a spare drive, and the cable is connectorized (Anderson Power Poles) for a quick change-out.

I've never seen, or heard of, a boat with dual redundant APs. This one could be a first!

 

[kappykaplan]

Thks on the advise.
Can you share some pictures on how you fitted the linear drive

Here are a couple of photos for you.

 

[dlochner]

But I still don't get wy one would want dual-redundant AP systems. What, exactly, is the fault you're protecting against? By my knowledge of these systems, the most likely component to fail is the drive, either the wheel drive (which has seemingly infinite faulure modes) or the linear drive. One occasionally hears of other components failing, but not nearly at the rate of the drives.

If the plan is to cross oceans, being halfway to somewhere and no longer having an AP would be a bummer. It is not unusual for long distance cruisers to have a wind vane AP and an electric AP.

The OP has an installed wheel pilot that is not up to the job on many days. Adding a more powerful below deck AP would better meet his needs. So, why chuck the old Wheelpilot? Why not keep it? Its resell value is pretty low and now he has a backup.

 

[Meriachee]

What was maybe not clear seems to indicate that maybe Theres a lack of balance in the boat. That was lightly discussed, but at the end of the day, a well balanced rig dies not put a lot of strain on an AP.
That of course doesn’t consider downhill with a tail wind.

 

[jssailem]

That of course doesn’t consider downhill with a tail wind.

As Meriachee points out the point of sail becomes a factor as the wind and wave action moves aft.

The challenge is that the speed of the boat increases - running down a wave, the wave forces on the rudder require large not small corrections and the amount of force can be significant (why do you think they tied the helmsman to the wheel in old days or had 2 persons on the helm.). Add to this the vulnerability our boats face when a gybe or a broach occurs, you need to have quick and positive corrections made to control the boat.

Sometimes there is no replacement for a good helms person.

 

[jviss]

Why not keep it?

Two control heads? Too much extra wiring, place for control unit, general clutter?

It's a 38' boat. Space for mounting electronics is at a premium. You can't easily "share" components, and I don't think RM course computers can use heading info off the bus.

Seriously, if I was making an ocean crossing and planning for some self-steering redundancy, a wheel pilot wouldn't enter the picture.

I think this has become silly. If you just want to prevail in this "argument," than I concede you win. But it doesn't change my view.

 

[Tally Ho]

I think I get what the OP wants to do makes sense, but not sure that it is real practical, as @jviss has pointed out.

If I were sailing oceans, or even cruising the Great Lakes (not day-sailing like I usually do), I would be investing in a wind vane...on top of a below-deck autopilot.

Greg

 

[Davidasailor26]

When I installed my AP, the computer and drive unit were installed on a separate circuit from the rest of the electronics, so it could be shut off and everything else continues to work. This also allows me to shut off the power hungry AP if necessary and hand steer.

Interesting approach. How much does your AP draw when it's just in standby? Mine is powered along with the chartplotter and everything else on the bus. The total of all of it is about 3.5 amps when in standby. I've never tried disconnecting the AP to see if it drops, but I can't imagine it's that much.

I agree that it seems like the way B&G handles the AP it should be able to handle switching between AP's. I would guess it would just pick up the new unit on the NMEA 2K network and start controlling it instead of the old. It's possible a recalibration would be needed, but the calibration probably gets saved in the AP computer, not the MFD, otherwise multiple MFD's on the same net would need a way to share that data. I don't know if RM handles it the same way, but it seems like anything on an NMEA network would.

 

[dlochner]

Interesting approach. How much does your AP draw when it's just in standby?

I never really checked, probably a third to a half amp. On a 10 hour sail that adds up. The other time we will shut the power to the AP is when the MFD is being used for an anchor watch, over time the current draw adds up. No use wasting precious electrons when you don't need to.

On our system, every major device can be powered off independently. It makes for a few more switches to throw, but gives us better control over energy consumption. We have a Zeus2 MFD, 4G Radar, AIS, and AP. The VHF is also on a separate circuit.

 

[vhoisington]

So all the discussion on the AP is great but, I've seen almost none on the boat balance issue. In looking through the thread there were a few mentions about reefing and such but, no one mentioned tuning the rig properly. Hunters will balance well if the rig is tuned properly. Check the mast rake, and tension of all shrouds and make sure they are properly set. Then begin playing with the sail controls to get your boat balanced properly. This will reduce effort required by the AP and regardless of if it is a WP or a below deck setup, allow the AP to work more efficiently.

Fair winds,

 

[jviss]

This will reduce effort required by the AP and regardless of if it is a WP or a below deck setup, allow the AP to work more efficiently.

Yes, but...even with a perfectly tuned and balanced rig, you will encounter winds and seas that the wheel pilot can't handle.

 

[dlochner]

So all the discussion on the AP is great but, I've seen almost none on the boat balance issue. In looking through the thread there were a few mentions about reefing and such but, no one mentioned tuning the rig properly. Hunters will balance well if the rig is tuned properly. Check the mast rake, and tension of all shrouds and make sure they are properly set. Then begin playing with the sail controls to get your boat balanced properly. This will reduce effort required by the AP and regardless of if it is a WP or a below deck setup, allow the AP to work more efficiently.

Fair winds,

Boat trim was actually the first response, see post #2. An underlying assumption for the AP posts, at least ones I made, is that the sails are trimmed well and the boat is balanced so little correction is needed.

With that said, wheel pilots are not as fast or as powerful as below deck APs. The later generation of AP computers are far better at holding a course than earlier generations.