I just read a posting on the Waterway Guide where a captain got a fine for improper securing of discharge line. What's the requirement on this? I have a Catalina 310 and all waste goes to a holding tank. I can pump it overboard from the tank through a stopcock. I always keep this valve closed, but it is not "secured" in any way. Is there a requirement to have this tied down in some way?
What's the requirement on "securing" waste valve?
- Thread starter butchrobbins
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When I had my boat inspected by the CGAx (in MD) they were looking for the same thing - either remove the valve handles or have wire ties so there is no accidental discharge.
It seems from the DEP write up below, they can board your vessel if:
1. If they have probable course
2. with consent - they have to ask!!!
or
3. if the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.
What a joke how are you going to show MSD w/o boarding?
Maybe USCG inspection sticker. Maybe the sheriff have a different law!!!!
From Fl DEP - I bolded the text:
What are the guidelines for “Y-valves”?
Under federal law, if a boat has a “Y” valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be closed while operating in all inland and coastal waters. It is suggested you use a non-releasable wire tie, lock, or remove the valve handle to secure the device. When you are more than three miles offshore in the ocean, the “Y” valve may be open allowing direct discharge overboard.
A “Y” valve may also be found on boats having both a Type I or II MSD and a holding tank. This gives the boater an option to discharge treated waste overboard or to contain it for pumpout later.
Are marine sanitation devices subject to inspection?
Yes. When the owner or operator is aboard, an officer may board a vessel with consent or if there is probable cause or knowledge to believe that a violation has occurred or is occurring. An officer may also board a vessel if the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.
What are the fines for non-compliance?
$50.00 infraction for compliance issues
$250.00 civil penalty for discharge of raw sewage
You make your own opinion here about the fine!!!
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/cleanmarina/CVA/boater_faq.htm#9
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Velero49
It seems from the DEP write up below, they can board your vessel if:
1. If they have probable course
2. with consent - they have to ask!!!
or
3. if the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.
What a joke how are you going to show MSD w/o boarding?
Maybe USCG inspection sticker. Maybe the sheriff have a different law!!!!
From Fl DEP - I bolded the text:
What are the guidelines for “Y-valves”?
Under federal law, if a boat has a “Y” valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be closed while operating in all inland and coastal waters. It is suggested you use a non-releasable wire tie, lock, or remove the valve handle to secure the device. When you are more than three miles offshore in the ocean, the “Y” valve may be open allowing direct discharge overboard.
A “Y” valve may also be found on boats having both a Type I or II MSD and a holding tank. This gives the boater an option to discharge treated waste overboard or to contain it for pumpout later.
Are marine sanitation devices subject to inspection?
Yes. When the owner or operator is aboard, an officer may board a vessel with consent or if there is probable cause or knowledge to believe that a violation has occurred or is occurring. An officer may also board a vessel if the operator refuses or is unable to display the safety or marine sanitation equipment.
What are the fines for non-compliance?
$50.00 infraction for compliance issues
$250.00 civil penalty for discharge of raw sewage
You make your own opinion here about the fine!!!
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/cleanmarina/CVA/boater_faq.htm#9
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Velero49
tim r--i was advised by a uscg aux inspector that if i didnt have a zip tie on my cant reach it handle then i am in noncompliance. there is no way short of dismantling my formosa to reach said valve or its handle. i am able to reach the one directing flow to the holding tank. is reachable. but the main thru hull fitting is so far out of reach as to be rendered unusable.
i will remember to remain 12 miles OFF floriduh. mebbe 20. lol
i was boarded by uscg DESPITE current -within 2 months - inspection sticker. the lady officer on board during the jackup said if she had known about that on entering boat--no permission asked, btw, they would not have done this deed. bs. i TOLD AND SHOWED the sticker, visible on my mizzenmast to the lead individual in the boarding party--and was laughed at. lol.. they had so much fun torturing my cat (feline) with a dobie that they forgot all about checking my valve handle.....
i will remember to remain 12 miles OFF floriduh. mebbe 20. lol
i was boarded by uscg DESPITE current -within 2 months - inspection sticker. the lady officer on board during the jackup said if she had known about that on entering boat--no permission asked, btw, they would not have done this deed. bs. i TOLD AND SHOWED the sticker, visible on my mizzenmast to the lead individual in the boarding party--and was laughed at. lol.. they had so much fun torturing my cat (feline) with a dobie that they forgot all about checking my valve handle.....
Federal law:
33 CFR 159.7 applies to all INTERstate waters, including the ICW and all coastal waters. However, it does not necessarily apply to inland INTRAstate waters (waters contained entirely within the boundaries of a state..iow, an inland lake).
Note that paragraph (b) describes the requirements for securing a treatment device which are slightly different from securing a holding tank, described in paragraph (c):
(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—
(1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or
(4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock.
Note that it's the SEACOCK which must be secured as described in paragraph (b)...that just securing any y-valves is NOT enough.
(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—
(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.
Note that EACH VALVE---that means any y-valves AND the seacock must be "secured" as described in paragraph (c).
Most water cops are pretty reasonable...they'll accept anything that clearly demonstrates intent to comply even if it doesn't conform to the letter of the law. But then there are the water cops with "crossing guard syndrome"...and you never know when you're gonna run into one.
33 CFR 159.7 applies to all INTERstate waters, including the ICW and all coastal waters. However, it does not necessarily apply to inland INTRAstate waters (waters contained entirely within the boundaries of a state..iow, an inland lake).
Note that paragraph (b) describes the requirements for securing a treatment device which are slightly different from securing a holding tank, described in paragraph (c):
(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—
(1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or
(4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock.
Note that it's the SEACOCK which must be secured as described in paragraph (b)...that just securing any y-valves is NOT enough.
(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—
(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.
Note that EACH VALVE---that means any y-valves AND the seacock must be "secured" as described in paragraph (c).
Most water cops are pretty reasonable...they'll accept anything that clearly demonstrates intent to comply even if it doesn't conform to the letter of the law. But then there are the water cops with "crossing guard syndrome"...and you never know when you're gonna run into one.
Tie wrap or padlock on the 'overboard valve' is required in most places nowadays.
In Volusia County Florida (New Smyna, Daytona, etc.) if the head overboard THROUGH-HULL (not the Y valve) is not secured by wire tie, padlock, or tie wrap .... you will put yourself at risk for stiff fines and will possibly risk being SHOT or grossly intimidated by the "Volusia Country Water Thugs". Thats right they sometimes draw or brandish their WEAPONS for MSDS inspections in Volusia County .... I have witnessed this FIRST HAND.
http://cruisersnet.net/coments-from...1310-msd-boarding-incident-in-volusia-county/
Stay out of Volusia County if you cant put up with extreme intimidation and overzealous water-nazis. Someone is ultimately going to get shot there .... because of the overzealous MSDS inspections.
In Volusia County Florida (New Smyna, Daytona, etc.) if the head overboard THROUGH-HULL (not the Y valve) is not secured by wire tie, padlock, or tie wrap .... you will put yourself at risk for stiff fines and will possibly risk being SHOT or grossly intimidated by the "Volusia Country Water Thugs". Thats right they sometimes draw or brandish their WEAPONS for MSDS inspections in Volusia County .... I have witnessed this FIRST HAND.
http://cruisersnet.net/coments-from...1310-msd-boarding-incident-in-volusia-county/
Stay out of Volusia County if you cant put up with extreme intimidation and overzealous water-nazis. Someone is ultimately going to get shot there .... because of the overzealous MSDS inspections.
CG and CGAUX not always have correct information.
Y'all really should consider carrying a copy of 33 CFR 159.7 aboard...
Tim said, "I believe(and have confirmed with a local CG inspector) that if your toilet pumps directly to a tank and cannot discharge directly overboard from your toilet you are legal"
Nope...not true. See my previous post
Valero posted, "What are the guidelines for “Y-valves”?
Under federal law, if a boat has a “Y” valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be closed while operating in all inland and coastal waters. It is suggested you use a non-releasable wire tie, lock, or remove the valve handle to secure the device. When you are more than three miles offshore in the ocean, the “Y” valve may be open allowing direct discharge overboard.
A “Y” valve may also be found on boats having both a Type I or II MSD and a holding tank. This gives the boater an option to discharge treated waste overboard or to contain it for pumpout later."
Only partly true...just securing the y-valve is not enough.
And zeehag..."-i was advised by a uscg aux inspector that if i didnt have a zip tie on my cant reach it handle then i am in noncompliance. there is no way short of dismantling my formosa to reach said valve or its handle. i am able to reach the one directing flow to the holding tank. is reachable. but the main thru hull fitting is so far out of reach as to be rendered unusable."
If you're saying that you cannot reach that seacock to close it, you're also saying that you cannot maintain it,and would be unable to put a plug in it if that hose connection should fail and you start taking on water. That not only puts your boat in violation of marine sanitation laws, it endangers your vessel and your crew (which may only be you, but still...). You couldn't pass an insurance survey!
Y'all really should consider carrying a copy of 33 CFR 159.7 aboard...
Tim said, "I believe(and have confirmed with a local CG inspector) that if your toilet pumps directly to a tank and cannot discharge directly overboard from your toilet you are legal"
Nope...not true. See my previous post
Valero posted, "What are the guidelines for “Y-valves”?
Under federal law, if a boat has a “Y” valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be closed while operating in all inland and coastal waters. It is suggested you use a non-releasable wire tie, lock, or remove the valve handle to secure the device. When you are more than three miles offshore in the ocean, the “Y” valve may be open allowing direct discharge overboard.
A “Y” valve may also be found on boats having both a Type I or II MSD and a holding tank. This gives the boater an option to discharge treated waste overboard or to contain it for pumpout later."
Only partly true...just securing the y-valve is not enough.
And zeehag..."-i was advised by a uscg aux inspector that if i didnt have a zip tie on my cant reach it handle then i am in noncompliance. there is no way short of dismantling my formosa to reach said valve or its handle. i am able to reach the one directing flow to the holding tank. is reachable. but the main thru hull fitting is so far out of reach as to be rendered unusable."
If you're saying that you cannot reach that seacock to close it, you're also saying that you cannot maintain it,and would be unable to put a plug in it if that hose connection should fail and you start taking on water. That not only puts your boat in violation of marine sanitation laws, it endangers your vessel and your crew (which may only be you, but still...). You couldn't pass an insurance survey!
I feel for zeehag. On my boat, while it is certainly possible to operate the through hull valve, there are only a few ways:
1. with my toe.
2. blind, head turned, with only one hand and no practical way to work a wire tie.
3. by removing several hoses first. Then, it's simple!
4. no, a child can't help because the arms are too short
So, I can and do close the valve as needed, and I can and do maintain the system, but to suggest I can reasonably reach and secure the valve; nope, can't be done. None of this is the result of owner mods, it is the way she was built. All of the through hulls are in a single bulkheaded compartment, which is a great safety feature, but it makes things cozy.
She did very well in a resent purchase survey. Also, due to a leaky transducer during our delivery trip in that same compartment I filled the compartment. No troubles, no danger. I supose I could have fixed what was only a slow drip, or I could have kept up by pumping several times each day, but it was January and I was disinclined.
The Y-valve is easy and I lock it. Reguarding the balance, I'm not worrying. It's hard to even see the handle.
First let me say that I have given my country 20+ years service and have the letter from the commander in chief thanking me. Now I think things are only going to get worse for honest citizens unless people are more willing to take a stand that will be mildly inconvient for them. In this case boaters should boycott Florida. Perhaps if we stop spending our money there, the people of Florida will take action to correct THEIR problem. Don't complain about a wrong then be unwilling to help fix that prolem.
In this case I see the problem being the law enforcement and not the msd.
I would also try moving those unreachable through hulls, what were the boat builders thinking!
In this case I see the problem being the law enforcement and not the msd.
I would also try moving those unreachable through hulls, what were the boat builders thinking!
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So I guess relocating it would be just too much effort...so it will stay open all the time. You can't lube it or rebed it...or even check the hose connections...so you'll just keep your fingers crossed that WHEN your sinks, it'll be in her slip when no one's aboard, not at sea with children aboard.
Another point of view:
http://www.boatermouth.com//index.php?view=article&catid=2&id=2830&option=com_content&Itemid=3
I have no firm conclusion at this point who is telling the truth.
The captain said he was down below cooking and not on deck. The cops said he was on deck and went below.
Now who would you believe to be right...knowing that cops in this country are out of control!
Now who would you believe to be right...knowing that cops in this country are out of control!
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i am working on keeping it lubed by spraying as i can -- i cant reach but with spray. i am trying to figure a way to rearrange my area in there to be able to reach easily that which i am required to reach. this boat has been a pile of contradictions.
yes peggy--is nightmare fodder- i found out my head is actually not 100percent jabsco-- is half something else--bowl is crittendon something.... what is that--any good???
until i fix the thru hull thang, i have long armed crew.... they can reach it.
armed poop cops--wouldnt have believed it a few years ago....uscg ok'd me -- gave me sticker-- i hope we all live thru this poo police thang......
yes peggy--is nightmare fodder- i found out my head is actually not 100percent jabsco-- is half something else--bowl is crittendon something.... what is that--any good???
until i fix the thru hull thang, i have long armed crew.... they can reach it.
armed poop cops--wouldnt have believed it a few years ago....uscg ok'd me -- gave me sticker-- i hope we all live thru this poo police thang......
...exactly.
I'm kinda sad over the whole thing - that people who inspect MSDs carry guns, that other people are uptight and hostile about enforcement, and finally that some people don't think it's a big deal if they dump sh!t in the water. :cry:
Another question - has there been a string of these "drawn guns to inspect a MSD" incidents, or are we working ourselves into a foamy lather over ONE incident plus a general resentment at stepped-up enforcement in Florida?
I'm kinda sad over the whole thing - that people who inspect MSDs carry guns, that other people are uptight and hostile about enforcement, and finally that some people don't think it's a big deal if they dump sh!t in the water. :cry:
I know it's not a big deal if I dump sh!t in most of the waters I sail in but I don't. What the cities, yards, and sewage plants I pass do effluate (Channeling G.W. Bush and Palin here) IS a big deal.
By our choice, the first mod we made to our H37c was to add a holding tank. We don't dump shit in anybody's water. If I were the king of the world no one would. I cannot control even my small town, but I am in charge of my boat, and all sewage goes into the tank. We have no Y valve.
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