whats the best reaction

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Jul 18, 2009
274
marine clipper 21 ft santa ana Southern Lakes,Yukon
hope this is in the right forum...anyway i was in a brisk wind coming at me from the North and i was tacking to the Northwest...a real quick brisk gust came up..(the mainsail was wet from rain and i just previously took down my jib sail as the wind was getting bad)..the gust really took me hard and layed me over good and i was almost broadside to the wind pointed west..(but my keel didn.t break surface)...i fought the gust with the rudder and eventually got it brought back and i closed the wind to give me a breather till the gust quit...but if it was a bit stronger i may have had more problems...is an option to loosen my boom vang to spill the wind off the sail if i can pull it hard enough to release and is another option just not to fight the gust and turn with the wind to run with it to prevent getting layed over good...???...i plan on practising the two options in moderate wind to see the results but would like some input as well..i run high horsepower modified snowmobiles but nothing...and i mean nothing compares to the power of a sail full of wind...it amazes me the respect it deserves..
 
Oct 23, 2008
138
Macgregor v22 Tacoma
I wouldn't mess with the vang. Spill some wind by easing the main. You can also reef the main when conditions get gusty to make the boat more manageable.
 
Jun 13, 2005
559
Irwin Barefoot 37 CC Sloop Port Orchard WA
Just let the boat do what it wants to do.
If you dropped the jib you were left with excess weather helm; thats the condition where the boat wants to turn up into the wind. Thus on stbd tack you had your tiller (I assume a tiller) to the stbd side of the center line. When the puff hit you said that the boat ended up pointing west, so you fought the puff by pulling the tiller further to stbd and you turned an additional 45 deg. down wind. You almost got knocked down.

What you should have done is play the gust by easing off the tiller even if you just let it go. With the weather helm the boat would just turn up into the wind, spill the gust from the main and the boat would come upright. If you let it go completely however, it will come up into the wind fast and might even tack, so you should probably hold it, and ease it towards the centerline.

Then you could ease the mainsheet and fall off a little and continue sailing your boat.

Have fun

Joe S
 
Jul 18, 2009
274
marine clipper 21 ft santa ana Southern Lakes,Yukon
thanks guys...getting late...i will absorb this...and as well practice in less extreme conditions some simulated occurrances...maybe i need a Dutchman Boom Brake for my tiller handle...lol ..:redface::redface:
 
Sep 21, 2006
280
-Hunter 35.5 Washington, NC
I agree with Mac Daddy, had a similar situation once and discussed it with an old salt who said "when in doubt, let it out", referring to the mainsheet.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Going to windward in tough conditons:

Keep your speed up. This isn't always appreciated but speed is your friend because it provides the control to let you respond to conditions with the helm which is faster and more certain than easing the mainsheet which can snag or fail to release in a jam cleat. Controlling heel with the helm also points you briefly where you want to go so you'll spend less time out there struggling to get to your goal.

When the boat is overpowered, which it may often need to be in conditions where you have to carry enough sail to make good progress in the normal wind speed but have to deal with gusts that are significantly higher, sail by heel angle. Get the boat moving well in the lulls and then note the angle of the mast to the horizon or shore. Then steer to maintain that angle. Let the boat up easily, not to dramatically reduce the angle, but to maintain it. Don't worry too much about tell tales or luffing in such conditions. The harder you drive the boat (more heel angle) the faster the water flow over the rudder, the more control you will have, and the easier it will be able to hold the heel angle. Most modern designs have a critical heel angle at which you will lose control and the boat will round up quickly. You have to know where that is and not exceed it. Otherwise, resist the temptation to sail too gingerly. Once the boat starts to round up and heel decrease, you will need to quickly and firmly check the swing and hold her off.

If the distance to cover is not so great that you can accept the dramatically lower speed of sailing under main alone, it's a good option. It will not increase weather helm to an extent that makes most boats hard to control. The problem with the jib in very gusty conditions is that heading up too much, or heeling to the point where control is lost, can put the jib aback. The boat will then spin around on the other tack and you can be knocked down if you don't release the jib sheet fast enough. Eventually, you will know how to handle the boat well enough that this won't be a significant danger in all but the most gusty conditions.

Learn to reef the main and do it well before the boat is over powered. You'll be surprised at how much speed the boat often picks up when you reduce the size of the mainsail even though she didn't seem to be struggling.

There will always be times when you have to ease or even dump the mainsail. Always have the sheet clear and ready to do this. If you are depending on crew to handle the main and have the common cam cleat set up, be sure to instruct your crew to hold the sheet well back from the cleat and kick it out of the cleat with their foot.

You should quickly learn to anticipate when the big gusts are going to slam you hard enough to need to ease or even dump the main. Gusts are the faster moving air from aloft dipping down to the surface. They usually create turbulence, or even a vortex as the stream pushes down into the slower moving surface wind. When you feel a sudden brief lull and twitchiness in the wind, look out. More specifically, look to windward for that patch of dark water.

The gusts usually come from a slightly different direction than the normal wind. The greater the increase in gust speed, the greater the wind shift. The change in direction can contribute a lot to a knockdown. Once you know this, you can fairly quickly learn the gust direction and be headed up on the optimum course for the gust before hit hits and the increased heeling of the boat makes control more difficult.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,616
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
More thoughts

Don't ease the vang - you want your mainsail flat in heavy weather. The means tight outhaul, main halyard, and cunningham if you have one.

Drop the traveller. Doing this in response to the gust requires the right rigging for it. But it is easy to do before the gust hits.

Reef the main. Then reef the jib. I'd rather have them both reefed than roll up the jib. Remember that the jib/genny fairleads need to move forward when you reef it. Heaving to makes it easy to reef the main on Lady Lillie.

Keep on building your experience in heavy weather. It will build your confidence in yourself, and your boat.
 
Jun 7, 2004
265
- - Milwaukee
Disagree that you alway want your main flat in heavy weather. Once it starts to get overpowered, either let it twist a bit at the top by easying main/vang/traveler or some combination thereof. Or reef. You want to keep the boat off its ear. Until it's overpowered, then yes, a flat main will give the best performance in heavy air.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Re: More thoughts

In gusty conditions
Keep the vang tight, keep the maninsheet cleated but ready to 'go' if all gets totallly out of hand, 'play' the traveller in and out to keep the boat on its feet and at 'constantl heel'. You want to keep the sail FLAT with little 'twist' so that it doesnt 'power-up' during the momentary stronger winds.

By 'playing' the traveller the boat will keep more or less constant speed and constant heel as you rapidly adjust the traveller .... with the mainsail FLAT (tight outhaul) and draft 'well forward' (very tight halyard and/or tight cunningham). The 'well forward' draft shape will 'trip' the leech (leech moves to leeward) and will depower the leech; otherwise the mainsail will 'power-up' (more draft, leech hooking to windward, etc,) when the wind speed goes above what the set sail shape can normally handle.

If the (rope) vang is loosened (or stretches) the boom will lift which can increase draft in the middle sections ... and the sail will 'power-up'.


If you dont have a 'decent' traveller which can be rapidly adjusted without a lot of effort but have a 'strong' vang (+ strong mast and boom connections) you can withe the vang pulled very TIGHT 'play' the mainsheet (in & out) you can affect an equivalent methodology as above) - called 'vang sheeting'.

What will happen is that the CE of the main will go off the centerline (less heel), but the airflow streams will stay 'attached' (at lower angle of attack) due to the higher energy from the gust; the FLAT & vang-ed sail wont become powered-up (your probable current problem) and may start to luff (shake) in the forward sections. Another way of looking at this is that only the leech sections of the sail are giving power during the high velocity portion of the gusts;but the sail is not 'luffing' (much) and the luff that you do get is minimal. You have to be quick (in or out adjustment) when **blading-out** or **vang sheeting** to keep the boat speed and amount of heel constant.
If you keep keep boat speed (and the course that the boat makes through the water) more or less constant the attack angles that the sail makes with the wind will be more 'constant'. A boat that is constantly accelerating / decelerating will have to 'head up more' during the relative lulls and bear-off more during the 'blows' ... all a function of 'apparent wind speed' over the sails.

Genoa shape:
1. FLAT at the foot, head of the sail almost 'stalling' (fairlead moved aft) ... de-powered, draft forward (strong halyard tension).
How much 'draft forward'? If you have a draft stripe, watch where the point of maximum draft changes when a gust hits ... most sails will have their point of maximum draft somewhere near mid cord, when a gust hits the cloth can stretch and the draft moves 'aft' (powering up the sail). When you see the draft moving aft, tighten the halyard so that the draft stays in front of 'midcord' when the gust is at 'maximum' speed.
2. Watch how much sag is occurring in the forestay during the 'peak' of the gust. If the luff of the sail /forestay during the 'peak' of the gust and is grossly stretching off to the leeward side of the boat - time to tighten the backstay. A forestay that grossly stretches and allows the luff to fall off to leeward .... will grossly 'power-up' a jib/genoa - causing MORE heel, less ability to 'point', the boat skids off to leeward (watch the wake at the stern (... if the wake isnt coming almost straight off the stern, you are skidding to leeward - the more the skid the 'crankier the helm'), and the boat 'slows down'. Properly tuned rigging will alleviate the inordinate stretch and bad & powered-up shape, rigging that is too loose will make the situation much worse then it 'needs to be'.

Do websearch for:
"blading-out" + sails, "Vang sheeting" + sails, "playing the travelller" + gusts.

hope this helps.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
hope this helps.
Whew Rich, I think you'll scare the guy:) That's a wonderful exposition on going as fast as possible but he's still struggling with the basics.

I don't do any of that stuff myself cruising because I'm usually short handed. Constant sail adjustments would wear me out on long legs so I just do most of it with the helm. The boat loses some speed heading up but the closer angle makes up for most of the speed drop off. Most gusts are short enough that I see very little change in on the knotmeter. I only touch the main sheet for unexpectedly strong or long gusts.
 

Gail R

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Apr 22, 2009
261
Pearson 34 Freeport, ME
The best defense is a good offense.

Reef early and often. :) On our Pearson 30, we reef as soon as it looks like the conditions may call for it. Very little hemming and hawing. We've reefed during races. People think we're weenies, but the boat goes faster when she is not overpowered.

And yeah, play the main. This may sound counterintuitive, but sometimes rasing it on the traveler and sheeting out gives it enough twist to spill some air off the top and keep her on her feet.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Yup more than whats needed .... but Im SURE that he can distill out that the boat needs to be at constant speed and constant heel .... and to do that the best way is by playing the traveller (blading out the main) and whether he 'plays it' or just 'opens' or 'drops it down and leaves it to match the 'max' gust - doesnt matter. :)

The SHAPE of the sails is just something that 'cruisers' dont do ... and makes life much more bearable when in 'gusty' conditions if you know how to SHAPE a sail. If you just 'release the main', you can soon expect that the main will become grossly 'overpowered' if the wind is 'just right'. KEEPING it FLAT and 'blading it out' is safe, less hassle ... and more comfortable. :)

SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/category-books.htm?fno=400&group=[groupid]&cat=1321&nop=T
 
May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
I concur with the suggestion of reefing early. I think that a lot of sailors tend to sail around overpowered because they feel that they will loose a lot of speed by reefing. The truth is that the boat will become easier to manage and it will sail flatter. This will decrease the strain on the helm and also the rudder will act more like a rudder and less like a brake.

Having a small headsail is also a Godsend. I carry a 100 aboard my boat and if I know that I will be out in windy conditions I take my 150 off and put the 100 up. The problem that I face with this situation is that I tend to wait until it is too late to take the 150 down and put the 100 up myself. This makes it very unfavorable, as a single handed cruiser, to take the 150 down. Being out in rough waves is not a good thing when you are going forward and I don't like going forward in bad conditions.

Adding a little backstay tension flattens out the main, dropping the traveler also depowers the main. I agree that you don't want to mess with the vang in these conditions. Actually, you can flatten the main even more buy putting a lot of tension on the main sheet. Then, drop the travler down to leeward. This twists the main and allows you to dump the wind off of it.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
I Actually, you can flatten the main even more buy putting a lot of tension on the main sheet. Then, drop the travler down to leeward. This twists the main and allows you to dump the wind off of it.
Stu - think about this.
putting a lot of tension into the mainsheet will cause the leech to hook up to weather (like putting the flaps down on an airplane wing) ... that will 'power-up' a sail drastically.
Dropping the traveller will NOT change 'twist' (on a properly set up traveller). it actually allows the CE to go forward (and outboard) without changing any 'twist'. Twist allows a sails boom to raise, causing MORE draft in the center panels of a sail, why would one want
'twist' (more power-up) in gusty conditions? What wrong with 'dumping power' over the whole 'edge' of a sail, its more 'control-able'. <G>

The higher the windspeed the less vertical 'gradient' of windspeed; hence, the less need for 'twist' - look at an iceboat ... you'll hardlly ever see 'twist' on an iceboat because they are so fast because they keep their 'apparent wind' at a maximum.


edited ... errrr, I mean Bad (not Stu) :)
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,353
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Contrary to popular opinion

I am NOT Bad Obsession ...

and he's not me! :):doh::cussing:

Both of us are grateful for that, you betcha!
 

JerryA

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Oct 17, 2004
550
Hunter Hunter 170 Sandusky Bay, Lake Erie
Excellent Rich! I single-hand most of the time, and all of those tips are in frequent use on my boat when the wind starts to gain the upper hand. I don't have a traveler, so I usually tighten the vang and play the main sheet. I find my boat to like the main reefed and the jib foot with some draft.

JerryA
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Whew Rich, I think you'll scare the guy:) That's a wonderful exposition on going as fast as possible but he's still struggling with the basics.

I don't do any of that stuff myself cruising because I'm usually short handed. Constant sail adjustments would wear me out on long legs so I just do most of it with the helm. The boat loses some speed heading up but the closer angle makes up for most of the speed drop off. Most gusts are short enough that I see very little change in on the knotmeter. I only touch the main sheet for unexpectedly strong or long gusts.
If it takes less force to turn the wheel (constantly luffing up then bearing off), than it is to dump/pull a traveller, then you need a decent/better traveller. A 'good' (recirculating ball) traveller for 'playing' or blading-out in gusts is quick and easy to use, most times easier than 'steering' to make the corrections.

Of course if your autopilots are that slow to react ... then we should probably take in a deeper reef. <grin>

regards
RichH
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
If it takes less force to turn the wheel (constantly luffing up then bearing off), than it is to dump/pull a traveller, then you need a decent/better traveller.
I'd love a better traveller but there are other things I need more. However, it's not a matter of one being more or less effort but of having to do two things instead of just one. I have to steer anyway in gusty conditions unless I reef down more than optimum to achieve the balance that will let the vane gear work well. A power autopilot isn't practical on my boat for long cruising legs due to the power draw.

I basically sail my boat like a large traditional craft without fancy racing gear. It's not constantly luffing up and bearing off but fairly smoothly maintaining the line that keeps the optimum heel angle. It's a technique that works quite well as described here:

http://www.pointseast.com/template.shtml?id=EEuApppyplMkENKsEG&style=story

In the light of dawn: I remembered that this story is primarily about sailing in almost laboratory like conditions of absolutely steady wind. The part about watching the angle of the mast to the horizon is applicable to the current discussion but the rest isn't. It's still worth reading though.
 
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Jul 18, 2009
274
marine clipper 21 ft santa ana Southern Lakes,Yukon
great responses and reading...i will study up on all the terms you guys use...lol...ok my vang is fixed on my traveler just before cabin door and other end is 2/3 down the boom where its fixed...the traveller only has 1 ft each side of center...which i didn;t think is enough to spill a gust if i moved it all the way over...but i will have to try it...i like the idea of loosening the vang even if i have to kick it loose from the cleats under load but one other question...can i just turn downwind if the heavy gust has me...or is it once the sail is broadside to the gust the pressure is equal on all parts of the sail and it make turning upwind or downwind a struggle and the best thing is to spill the wind..??i really have to bone up on all the terms etc...its thingmajig and watchmacallit way to much for me..i will have to get the booklets on this site and read Chapmans guide that my first mate bought....but you guys are great...thanks
 
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