What's more cost-effective - asymmetrical, or whisker pole to the headsail?

[tkanzler]

I need to do something to improve downwind performance on my Hunter 340, but I can't spend much to do it. It presently has it's original headsail (fractional rig) and main, and deck hardware and lines brought to the cockpit, but only for those two sails (no blocks or winches for a genoa or spinnaker). The mast, however, does have sheaves for in-mast rigging of a spinnaker that aren't presently used. I need to decide between a whisker pole and whatever rigging needed for it to pole out the headsail for wing-and-wing, or an asymmetrical spinnaker with whatever hardware (minimum) I could get away with. Not having ever used either, I don't know just what the minimum is for hardware.I sail Lake Ontario, half the time with inexperienced crew (kids and/or adults more interested in tanning and socializing), otherwise single-handedly, and almost always day-sailing excursions. No racing. I want to make longer distance weekend trips, including to Canada, and would rather not motor when there's a perfectly good breeze that rig improvement could take advantage of.So what's the best bang for the buck - whisker pole (and topping lift?) on the 'standard' headsail, or some kind of light-air headsail (and even more hardware)?

 

[David in Sandusky]

Asymetric is the best for reaching

Once you have cracked off close hauled, the asymetric spinnaker is the optimal reaching sail. It works best from 60 to about 140 degrees absolute off the wind.For direct down wind sailing, we can go wing and wing with the asymetric and the main if the waves are not too high. Actually, gybing downwind at 140 off the wind is faster for most sailboats than running directly downwind, even if you have a symetric spinnaker that is designed to go directly downwind.Hardware/rigging for the asymetric with a sock is minimal:- a bale and swivel block at the masthead.- a halyard.- a tackline and a place to attach it at the bow. (We wrap ours around the pulpit, and then attach it to the toerail.)- a sheet.- a turning block (we use a snap shackle we can move from side to side) to take the sheet to the stern, and then forward to the sheet winch.- Cleats on the mast for the halyard and the sock control line. (In my opinion, you don't need a winch for the halyard, although we have one.)Good luck - this sail has added 20 percent to our sailing time vs motoring.DavidLady Lillie

 

[Ed Schenck]

Start with pole. . . .

. . .maybe. Because the cost depends upon some, for me, unknowns. Do you already have a halyard for something like a drifter for example? A used sail can be very inexpensive compared to a good pole. What adds up are the components like a sock(you mentioned "light" crew) and rigging.Personally I almost never use my drifter. It is so much easier to wing it with the pole and a preventer on the main. Not as fast but I can go dead downwind without a concern for small shifts. I only wish that I had spent more for a better pole. Mine has those holes and buttons making adjustment a pain in the behind. Besides the pole I tapped/screwed a single ring at the proper height on the mast. The pole came with those stanchion mounts so it is out of the way.

 

[caguy]

The asymmetrical gets my vote.

Initial cost depending on how you buy is about the same. What you don't pay for in a spin pole you can apply to a dousing sock. Because of the dousing sock the asym sees a lot more use. I solo sail most of the time and can handle the asym with ease. The spinnaker setup for me is a lot more work. On my Mac25 the amount of asym sail seems its more than the spin. My asym goes to the mast head while the spinnaker only to the fore-stay.The real payoff for the asymmetrical is in the amount of use.Frank

 

[PHitchcox]

Whisker Pole

If your question is pure cost, a whisker pole is hard to beat. I purchased a Forespar whisker pole and use it often. Note that because of Hunter's smaller jib, I don't think you need anything terribly heavy duty. You don't need to have the pole any longer than the J measure (11' 6" for the 340).Forespar's 7-15DL whisker pole is a twistlock version; not as fancy as line control, but I believe big enough. It has three sections, but easily extends to 12 feet. ~$350. Install a mast pad eye (~$40). You will have to store the pole someplace, so stanchion mounts will put your total investment to around $500. However....the asymmetric, with a sock for easy deployment, is lots of fun and a great way to entertain the troops. It really is an unusual and exhilarating way to sail downwind (but not dead down wind). If your question is cost per unit of fun, then the asymmetric is a great way to go. It also requires far more effort to set up, so it does take a distant second place to the pole in terms of convenience.Best of luck.Paul

 

[Joseph Shirley]

No boat goes faster dead down wind

unless the wind is over 35 knots or so, and that includes those with a symetrical spinnaker or anything else. The driving force on any sail (like an airplane wing) is much greater (Assume twice as much) on the leeward or pulling side of a sail than on the windward or pushing side of the sail. Thats why you should always have the wind flowing over your sails rather than into them. Prudent sailors would always tack (Gybing if you prefer) down wind, unless it was blowing like stink and you're going hull speed anyway; or you have to go dead downwind because of navigational considerations. So if you have to go dead downwind the first thing you should try is over trimming the main a little deflecting the wind into your wing & wing jib (a preventer on the main helps as Ed suggested). You would be surprised at how well it holds the jib. This costs almost nothing.The next thing on the list is to pole out the jib and ease the main all the way; and you would do that if you had an asymetrical chute also. So if your looking for the cheapest way to go dead down wind, use a preventer first and adjust your sail trim, next get a pole, and thirdly get a symetrical spinnaker with all the gear. If on the other hand you just want to find the cheapest way to go faster downwind, reach off first, then get an asymetrical spinaker, and leave the pole for last.

 

[Kris13969]

Asymmetrical

If you can spend the money. Asymmetrical chute if faster and fun. I bought one from Thesailwarehouse.com for my capri 22. Boat is much faster in light air now and more fun. I had a spin. halyard and spin blocks. I use my sheet winches. You can mount blocks on the boat cheaper than buying snap blocks if you choose. The sailwarehouse has packages with snap blocks if you want. I bought launch bag in place of sock to save money, but my boat is much smaller than yours. You will use it more a have less stress raising and lowering it with sock. Asymmetrical has much less hardware and much easier than standard spinnaker. Check them out before you decide. Easy payment with credit card.

 

[Joe]

comment on your rig.....

Tkansler.... I just wanted to comment that the in mast sheaves may not be appropriate for spinnaker use, if you decide to go that way. Those are probably for an additional jib halyard that wasn't installed because you undoubtedly have roller furling and wouldn't use the spare halyard very much. A spinnaker halyard needs a swivel block at the top of the mast that will allow the sail to move around freely and clear the forestay. Remember that the chute is not attached to the forestay, so it will move and cause the halyard to chafe unless it is being controlled by a high quality swivel block.I suggest that you rig the new spinnaker halyard outside the mast, with an additional cleat at the base so you can have one of your crew hoist the sock and launch the chute from one position. You can still run the halyard back to the cockpit, but if it's out side the crew can jump it themselves if the skipper finds himself too busy with other things. I also recommend an adjustable tack line, run back to the cockpit, that would allow you to raise or lower the chute's tack for better luff control.Final comment on cost.... Cheapest option would be a pole and preventer set up and just run wing and wing. You will still need a topping lift for the pole and perhaps a foreguy. A foreguy can be easily made with a length of line and a block with a shackle that you can fix somewhere forward. In the future you can use the foreguy as the adjustable tack line you'll need for the asymetrical. Or use it for the spin pole foreguy should you choose to go with a symetrical chute. You could use the second halyard for the topping lift, but just watch for chafe.

 

[Duane Beaver]

whisker pole

What size jib/genoa do you have? You should have a genoa of the 150/155 range for best light air performance. With a large jib you can pole it out either for DDW or nearly DDW best performance. That's what I had on my 30' Catalina and found it to be good for light, down wind sailing. You could buy a used whisker pole here or on E-bay for less than $500. Good luck.Novelman

 

[Jim Kolstoe]

Kinda depends

If I understand your post correctly, your headsail is in the range of a 100% jib on a fractional rig. Poling that out may help on down wind performance, but as previous postings pointed out, dead down wind is dead slow unless the wind is really strong. My wife and I bought a 150% semideck sweeper gennie before we got into the issue of downwind speed. Having the larger projected sail area helps on all points of sail. We added a whisker pole with a pad-eye on the mast and discovered the additinal projected sail area realized with teh whisker pole gave us very acceptable performance downwind, and makes wing and wing fun. Is it as good as an asymetrical? I don't know as we've gone head to head, as it were, with another h23 rigged with an asymetrical.  My suggestion is that you need to look at more sail area, whether by adding a gennie or by adding an asymetrical. Sorry about the dollars. Good luck. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo

 

[Pat T]

I had the same issues as you

I ended up spending a little more to get the cruising spinnaker. I am glad I did. It is fun to use. One factor in making my decision also was in storing the whisker pole when not in use. The spinnaker gets tossed down below. The pole will have be attached to the deck (not my first choice), the stanchions, or the mast. This will cost you too in some extra hardware. Are you in a secure area where you don't have to worry about it being swiped? I bought my sail from Cruising Direct- a division of North Sails. The gave me the best deal - I think I bought during the boat show. I could not find a used one. They get purchased quick but it is a good idea to look. The sock is a good idea too. Good luck on the decision making process.

 

[Roger (Ninette Manitoba)]

DRS

As others have said, you can expect to pay twice as much for an asym with hardware than a whisker pole... however... check the used markets... I purchased a used DRS, (drifter reacher spinnaker) slightly flatter and more versatile than a spinnaker, and of course with a definate leech and luff. The new price on a DRS is at the lowest $600, but was able to pick up a used one for $200. Although I do have a cheap pole for wing and wing work with the jib, the DRS is poleless, and easy to manage solo. With a traditional spinnaker you need experienced crew to manage it, otherwise you are directing the helmsperson, while you do the deck work. Teh DRS requires none of that.The DRS is more versatile in that you can use it in reaching situations as well as DDW (dead down wind) It also gybes easily, but must be flown outide the fore triangle, meaning that the tack must be attached forward of the forestay and the head must be above the forestay.As always, boating is a compromise between what you need and the money available. I have always found that waiting a bit longer gets you the proper equipment. Start with the whisker pole to increase your curent options. You can still use it later DDW when you acquire a DRS, althogh the whisker pole is not a necessary item for the DRS.

 

[tkanzler]

Thanks for the input,, and some clarification

I really appreciate the responses so far, although there seems to be some confusion as to what exactly I have to work with.Main is original with battens, slab reefing system, plus lazy jacks - not furling. Jib is also original, and it's small for a boat this size as someone pointed out, on a roller furler. The rig is B&R, fractional with the compression struts to the gooseneck. Bridge clearance is 56' - tall for a 34' boat.The mast has an exit block on the port side marked "spinnaker", "spin. halyard", or some such thing, and I assumed there is some exit sheave hardware of some kind above the forstay, but I'll have to take a look this weekend. There is no messenger, so a trip up the mast would be needed.The manual, for what it is, shows the optional spinnaker hardware, including a mast step block, 2 winches (Lewmar CST 30's), and a pair of blocks near the stern for the sheets. There is an unused sheave on the port side organizer for the halyard/topping lift, but I'd need a stopper.The only winches on this boat are the original CST 30 on the port, serving the jib halyard and sheet, and on the starboard side, a CST 40 serving the main halyard, sheet, and jib sheet. So a spinnaker would require two new winches (30's), turning blocks, mast step block and halyard, possibly special sheaves/blocks above the forstay, and a sail. The winches alone are nearly $1k each, plus blocks and sail, putting it near 4K I'd guess.A whisker pole would still need a topping lift, mast step block, stopper, (or just a cleat under the exit block), ring and pole, plus some storage hardware. Security is ok, I guess (gates locked at night, with patrols), but I suppose if someone wanted to steal the pole, there's not much to stop them unless I put it below decks to keep it out of sight.I'm trying to improve DW performance so that long trips don't take forever without motoring. With the B&R rig, I can't even get the main all that far out, so DDW is terrible, even with a bit of a breeze. An asymmetric would be nice, but I'm afraid very costly, especially for two new winches, plus sail, unless I can use the existing winches on the cabin roof.I guess I'm leaning towards the asymmetrical and sock (or something similar) if I can make do for a while with the existing winches while I save my pennies.

 

[T37 Phil]

Double stay

Has any used the newer drifter furlers? They are meant to replace code 0 furlers and make using light air sails ever easier. A second stay is placed just behind the forestay using a furling jib (110 or so). The outer stay has a continuous line furler for a light wind sail. It's not really a cutter rig, just a way to make deploying a light wind sail a snap. This setup was described/suggested to me this past winter. I don't think it's the most cost effective. I don't know if it's appropriate with a fractional rig either. But I thought it might fit into this discussion anyway.

 

[caguy]

Here is a link a company that Novelman turned me on to.

Which ever way you go the Chute Scoop works well for me. They are pretty reasonably priced and the quality is good. In looking this up I learned that you can use the sock as a way to reef the spinnaker. Good to know.Here is a vid of Novelman setting up his new sock.http://youtube.com/watch?v=F48F3JGq1IA&feature=relatedFrank

 

[Seattle Scott]

Kanzler with a sock you dont' need a halyard winch

I host the sock on my 37'with out a winch, its just maybe 25 pounds with little wind resistance. But on your boat I don't see how you are going to be able to lead the chute sheets to your cabintop sheet winches. I just use the cockpit coaming jib sheet winches for my chute sheets. So as you say, if you figure you will have to install two additional winches, I would go with the whisker pole first.

 

[David in Sandusky]

Don't need new winches

You can use the same winches you currently use for the jib to trim the asymetric sheet. The jib will be furled, and the jib sheets will not need their winch.DavidLady Lillie

 

[Clark]

tkansler, you do not need additional hardware for a sock.

I'm in the rpocess of gathering the bits to fly an asm as well and have learned that a good sock has all the hardware you need on the sock. It comes with its own swivel and block for raising and lowering the sock. I have seen ads for a deck mounted block to make raising/dowsing easier but it is not a requirement. I'm curious, did Hunter say that the ring below the spin halyard is all that is needed? I don't have one on mine . . . .

 

[tkanzler]

I've not gotten an answer from either Hunter or Z-Spars

From what I can tell looking at other boats in the marina, the ring is a fairlead to limit the angle of the halyard to the sheave. Just about all the other boats with such a halyard have some kind of ring or stamped stainless steel fairlead. I guess that's what the ring is for, so that's how I'm going to use it.Z-Spars (US Spars, actually), who made my mast and boom, wasn't interested in answering a question, either. Annoyed sounding receptionist (or whoever it was that answered) took my number so engineering could get back to me, which they never did. Email went unanswered, also.

 

[Clark]

I had posed a similar question to USSpars and got a call-back

a couple of days later. Was finally able to talk with one of their techies and he was quite helpful. On my boat, there is a pair of rings on the forestay fitting at the mast and that is what Z-Spar had intended for providing a fairlead for a spinnaker halyard. Here is the part that may be relavant to you; the guy suggested that a simple halyard restrainer be installed on mine between the exit block and the forestay toggle to act a a fairlead and put the loads closer to the forestay where it was intended. By placing the restrainer a little above the forestay, I'll have room for a bunched-up sock in that area and (hopefully) make the operation a bit smoother. I think in your case, the ring is for leading the halyard fair and taking pressure off the sides of the exit fitting.