What's going on in CA?

[redhead78]

I was in a race 25 yrs ago 22' tanzer, I was beating hard lot of weather helm all of sudden no helm at all boat speed dropped off and as I was looking around trying to figure what was what I saw a 4, piece of rudder floating away, I was able to steer wf the outboard.it sucked..Red

 

[rajhnsn]

Seems like an awfully small rudder for a boat that size. I wonder if the shaft was carbon fiber or stainless?

 

[8826d]

Training

I looked and couldn't find any training for us relative newbies on steering when your rudder becomes inop. Sounded like a good thing to be going over for everyone and picking up some techniques for those of us that are a little clueless in that regard.

My boat has an outboard so I could drop sails and motor steer with that, or keep sailing and attempt to steer with the motor lowered but not running - but I don;t think that'd be too effective, drop anchor if thats possible, but someone mentioned steering with a bucket, or sea anchor I guess. Good idea. Anyone point me in the direction to get details on other good ideas in that regard? (Other than the obvious take a sailing course?) Suppose I could search web but whole lot of experienced sailors here.

My apologies if I'm too far off topic or this is covered someplace I could have easily found. Just throwing it out there. Thanks

 

[Jackdaw]

I looked and couldn't find any training for us relative newbies on steering when your rudder becomes inop. Sounded like a good thing to be going over for everyone and picking up some techniques for those of us that are a little clueless in that regard.

My boat has an outboard so I could drop sails and motor steer with that, or keep sailing and attempt to steer with the motor lowered but not running - but I don;t think that'd be too effective, drop anchor if thats possible, but someone mentioned steering with a bucket, or sea anchor I guess. Good idea. Anyone point me in the direction to get details on other good ideas in that regard? (Other than the obvious take a sailing course?) Suppose I could search web but whole lot of experienced sailors here.

My apologies if I'm too far off topic or this is covered someplace I could have easily found. Just throwing it out there. Thanks

If your boat has an outboard, THAT IS your emergency rudder. If you have catastrophic rudder failure, start your OB and steer with that. Head in. Your day is over.

 

[8826d]

Absolutely Jackdaw!!! I agree totally.

 

[Rick D]

Shaft Was Carbon I Believe. But, Towing A Bucket?

High performance, high aspect fin. Tiller steered boat.
Hauling a bucket sounds good, but is harder in practice for two reasons. First, without a rudder blade compared to with one, the practice vs. reality will be very different (I tried). Second, an excellent mariner I knew tried it and found it nearly useless. Fortunately, he was hundreds of miles from land, so a lee shore was not an issue. He also had a full keel ketch, so he could do a lot with sails.

http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=232814&highlight=Suggestions: Lost rudder

We'll find out later with respect to this loss. Whatever it was likely was cascade effect and fast, like so many other incidents. RIP.

 

[kgw]

Reports also say the sea state was atrocious: the swells were coming from all quarters. . . Very uncomfortable to have 8', or higher, coming from all directions in 20 - 30 knot breeze. I wouldn't be out there.

 

[LuzSD]

Reading some of the more personal sites to do with this loss, it sounds like all hell broke loose all at once, very quickly. What a tragedy, it sounds like he missed being saved by minutes. kgw's description gives me chills; and add in the darkness of night and a lee shore, what a very scary night. Very very sad.

 

[rfrye1]

Agree W/ LuzSD

OK I understand an experienced crew & boat. But 8' swells, 20-30knt winds, pitch black (cant see your hands), Rudder breakls, on a lee shore, anchor wont hold. 1+1+1+1= major trouble. They should be counting their blessings they only lost one.... Very umfortunate for alll.

It is really easy to 2nd guess. But I'd like to see their course/plot line with that weather to see how much leeway they allowed San Clemente. Of course, no one considers a broken rudder, were extra they aggressive in theiir route planning considering weather conditions?

Again a tragedy.
Bob

 

[RobertLangdirect]

pic shows a prop, so i presume it has an engine--but that would still require rudder, which reportedly snapped off.

looked like a full on racing boat----tricky to steer sans rudder. keel is more like a forward rudder with a deep bulb.


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...sland-what-do-you-do-99675-2.html#post1181059

No rudder? Drop sail, start engine. Hang bucket from boom and drop behind boat. Move mast with halyard ran forward (and back to cockpit if you want to be fancy). Steers without rudder based on drag of bucket and its placement to right or left of centerline.

 

[Joe]

I looked and couldn't find any training for us relative newbies on steering when your rudder becomes inop. Sounded like a good thing to be going over for everyone and picking up some techniques for those of us that are a little clueless in that regard.

You can steer a sloop rig without the rudder by trimming the fore and aft sails for weather or lee helm, adjusting the movable ballast (crew weight, for instance) to heel the boat intentionally, or manipulating warps of line and such to steer with a drogue.................... you can cobble together an emergency rudder with a spinnaker pole and a hatch board...... there's plenty of information and ideas in just about every sailing instructional I've ever seen....... start with "The Annapolis Book of Seamanship"..... in all the small boat classes I took years ago, we were taught how to steer the boat without using the rudder........

But.........I don't think any of the aforementioned techniques are going to help much under the extreme conditions described in this incident.

However, for the average sailor in a less harrowing position, improvising a steering device or using your dinghy skills would certainly keep you away from a dangerous shore.

If you want to practice next time you're out... lash your tiller amidship and play with the sail trim..... and use the pressure changes to control boat direction.

 

[Jackdaw]

OK I understand an experienced crew & boat. But 8' swells, 20-30knt winds, pitch black (cant see your hands), Rudder breakls, on a lee shore, anchor wont hold. 1+1+1+1= major trouble. They should be counting their blessings they only lost one.... Very umfortunate for alll.

It is really easy to 2nd guess. But I'd like to see their course/plot line with that weather to see how much leeway they allowed San Clemente. Of course, no one considers a broken rudder, were extra they aggressive in theiir route planning considering weather conditions?

Again a tragedy.
Bob

As you can see, they were on about the same line as all the other boats when it all when wrong. The boat was full of great sailors, including the boats designer. They felt they had enough time to sort out a jury rigged steering system.

As others have noted, all the tricks that they teach you in ASA102 are pretty much worthless in the sea state they were in. The only good option is a full-on emergency rudder, in a transom mounted cassette as shown below. Sadly they didn't have one.

 

[kloudie1]

I agree, Jackdaw.. a high aspect ratio blade/bulb keel and no rudder is going to be pretty much uncontrolable ..
As others have noted, sailing with a rudder that cannot be controlled is do-able because ya still have the area back at the stern to keep the boat pointing somewhere .. but if the blade itself is gone, I doubt maneuvering, even in a good sea-state would be possible, much less in big and confused seas..
Does anyone know if the boat had the electric retractable power unit?

 

[Jackdaw]

Does anyone know if the boat had the electric retractable power unit?

Nope, Yanmar 10hp.

 

[CEOmike]

But.........I don't think any of the aforementioned techniques are going to help much under the extreme conditions described in this incident.

I sail the North Atlanic in a 91 Mac 26 and have cracked two rudders and lost one - 8ft and 30 knots is serious and would be impossible to steer or even replace with a makeshift. Everyone would be wet and exhasted very quickly in the cold water. It would be very serious, the only mistake here was maybe trying to save the boat - the cold clouds judgement, but,

But sometimes nothing can be done, it is the way of the seas.

I'm going to add, when under sail in these conditions it seems exciting but safe. As soon as you have to go to motor or lose the rudder or sail power it quickly becomes very serious. Under sail there is stability and you ride the waves. Adrift or even under motor the water is constantly washing over the boat and there is constant violent unpredictable rocking. You get exhasted very quickly. Below you are beat up and above the water gets you.

 

[zeehag]

mebbe this article might help folks understand they could not use tow nor drogue--was in use--needed 2....also describes the tow when it was done---good read.


http://sailinganarchy.com/2013/03/13/dig-deep/

 

[Gunni]

Wait! Open ocean race, 8ft. swell, small-craft warning conditions, middle of the night in a 30ft sailboat with a 10 HP outboard backup? What could go wrong?

 

[SOCAL C50]

Wait! Open ocean race, 8ft. swell, small-craft warning conditions, middle of the night in a 30ft sailboat with a 10 HP outboard backup? What could go wrong?

Usually nothing, BUT once in a while mother nature throws us a bone to chew on. I raced my Catalina 30 an on one race around Catalina Island calm seas and a fair wind when we started within a couple of hours the seas built and so did the wind we ended up with 10 to 15 ft seas with confused chop and winds which made it hard to keep a coarse. I ended up burying the bow of the boat twice and thats when I called it quits rolled the jib and fired up the iron genny, kept the main up for stability, with a lost rudder I would of needed a tow but in those conditions that would of been unsafe too. Thoughts go out to the crew and familys.

 

[LuzSD]

Usually nothing, BUT once in a while mother nature throws us a bone to chew on. I raced my Catalina 30 an on one race around Catalina Island calm seas and a fair wind when we started within a couple of hours the seas built and so did the wind we ended up with 10 to 15 ft seas with confused chop and winds which made it hard to keep a coarse. I ended up burying the bow of the boat twice and thats when I called it quits rolled the jib and fired up the iron genny, kept the main up for stability, with a lost rudder I would of needed a tow but in those conditions that would of been unsafe too. Thoughts go out to the crew and familys.

I have huge respect for what you write here. We can only deal with what we have and sometimes we know its going to be hairy and sometimes we don't. We have not opted to do the long race AROUND the island, but friends have and one that I respect greatly once told his crew after looking back at the following sea....... NO one is to look back, all eyes forward. They were visibly shaken from the experience.