i'm looking for something around 30-34 feet for real blue water sailing. i will not be sailing in the southern ocean or anything that crazy. i suppose i'm looking for something in that size range that would be stable in high seas. thanks steve H23 spray
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Mark M Smith
By far one of the
strongest blue water boats in that size range is the westsail 32.(the same sailboat that survived "the perfect storm") Made for serius blue water cruising. Good info on link below.
strongest blue water boats in that size range is the westsail 32.(the same sailboat that survived "the perfect storm") Made for serius blue water cruising. Good info on link below.
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R.W. Landau
Check out
Allied Seawinds. Full keel, good lines, fair layouts, Already been blue water tested by many. This does not mean you should take it for granted that the rigging is good and the hull is sound. r.w.landau
Allied Seawinds. Full keel, good lines, fair layouts, Already been blue water tested by many. This does not mean you should take it for granted that the rigging is good and the hull is sound. r.w.landau
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Jack Tyler
You need good information first, boat recs second
Steve, I'm sure this will catch you TOTALLY off guard, but most of us have fairly firm views on 'good offshore boats' that, in turn, are based on very limited offshore experience but lots of secondary info (reading, dock talks, boat shows) liberally spiced with personal bias. In short, soliciting a 'candidate list' is great fun (for you and the rest of us reading threads like this...) but probably doesn't get you very close to that feeling of certainty you want to attain where YOU know what the right boats are for YOUR budget, taste, skills and intended use. To get there, you need to get past individual biases (mine included) and give careful consideration to the views of real experts, namely folks who've been offshore for many miles and years and, further, don't have a particular sectarian view to defend. (If you think about it, this excludes lots and lots of folks whose writing we all read avidly and treat almost like gospel). Here's the best readily available overview of offshore boat design characteristics - and their strengths & weaknesses - that I know to recommend. It's written by John Neal, who's closing in on 400,000 offshore miles now, who's a thoughtful observer without seeming to champion one particular design brief and, perhaps most relevant for us normal folks, has always been 'just another sailor needing a newer boat' without sponsorship, a rich family or a boat brokerage in his back pocket. You'll find his summary at www.mahina.com/cruise.html. Please notice: there are few 'absolutes' in his comments. Instead, he tries to give an objective description of keel shapes, rig choices, hull materials, etc. from a perspective that everything offers benefits and by its nature includes liabilities. And the synopsis of specific design types at the end is definitive about nothing but is a great nutshell view of many popular, oft discussed cruising boats. I'm sure others here can nominate other qualified sources of such information. It won't take many such references before the common themes surface and what's important to you emerges. Perhaps others here will give you some similar referrals. Good luck on the hunt! Jack
Steve, I'm sure this will catch you TOTALLY off guard, but most of us have fairly firm views on 'good offshore boats' that, in turn, are based on very limited offshore experience but lots of secondary info (reading, dock talks, boat shows) liberally spiced with personal bias. In short, soliciting a 'candidate list' is great fun (for you and the rest of us reading threads like this...) but probably doesn't get you very close to that feeling of certainty you want to attain where YOU know what the right boats are for YOUR budget, taste, skills and intended use. To get there, you need to get past individual biases (mine included) and give careful consideration to the views of real experts, namely folks who've been offshore for many miles and years and, further, don't have a particular sectarian view to defend. (If you think about it, this excludes lots and lots of folks whose writing we all read avidly and treat almost like gospel). Here's the best readily available overview of offshore boat design characteristics - and their strengths & weaknesses - that I know to recommend. It's written by John Neal, who's closing in on 400,000 offshore miles now, who's a thoughtful observer without seeming to champion one particular design brief and, perhaps most relevant for us normal folks, has always been 'just another sailor needing a newer boat' without sponsorship, a rich family or a boat brokerage in his back pocket. You'll find his summary at www.mahina.com/cruise.html. Please notice: there are few 'absolutes' in his comments. Instead, he tries to give an objective description of keel shapes, rig choices, hull materials, etc. from a perspective that everything offers benefits and by its nature includes liabilities. And the synopsis of specific design types at the end is definitive about nothing but is a great nutshell view of many popular, oft discussed cruising boats. I'm sure others here can nominate other qualified sources of such information. It won't take many such references before the common themes surface and what's important to you emerges. Perhaps others here will give you some similar referrals. Good luck on the hunt! Jack
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RichJ
Blue water?
Steve, Conyplex, the most "bang for your buck", check this link. The boats built in Holland, North Sea, English Channel (get it?) sails real well in heavy seas and weather, and yes it is (at 30') quite capable of a passage.
Steve, Conyplex, the most "bang for your buck", check this link. The boats built in Holland, North Sea, English Channel (get it?) sails real well in heavy seas and weather, and yes it is (at 30') quite capable of a passage.
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Herb Tripp
web site address
Jack, I found your suggestion most interesting, and tried to get to the web site you recommended, www.mahina.com/cruise.html. but was unsuccessful. Could you double check the address?
Jack, I found your suggestion most interesting, and tried to get to the web site you recommended, www.mahina.com/cruise.html. but was unsuccessful. Could you double check the address?
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Mark
Island Packet
Check "Island Packet" Hey we sail in the Southern Ocean. Its not that bad you know. It fact its fantatstic. Come on down here and experiance real sailing.
Check "Island Packet" Hey we sail in the Southern Ocean. Its not that bad you know. It fact its fantatstic. Come on down here and experiance real sailing.
B
Bill
recommend Vigor's book
John Vigor's book, The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat is a great read. ISBN 0-07-137616x. It's available on Amazon.com
John Vigor's book, The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat is a great read. ISBN 0-07-137616x. It's available on Amazon.com
J
Jack Tyler
URL check for Herb...
Herb, I loaded http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html and got the site I was recommending. Sorry if there's a typo in the earlier post. Jack
Herb, I loaded http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html and got the site I was recommending. Sorry if there's a typo in the earlier post. Jack
E
Ed Schenck
Another URL.
The Mahina site is a good one. The Related Link is to AMAZON and a list of Vigor's books, excellent as already mentioned. And also check out the "Technical Articles" at: http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/ Good luck with your selection.
The Mahina site is a good one. The Related Link is to AMAZON and a list of Vigor's books, excellent as already mentioned. And also check out the "Technical Articles" at: http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/ Good luck with your selection.
J
Jack Tyler
Ed's URL...
...was, I thought, quite interesting and especially so the articles and correlation factors on commonly recognized (mostly U.S. manufactured) 'cruising boats'. John Holtrop deserves a lot of praise and our thanks for putting this data together. (The goal of using statistical analysis to pick 'good' cruising boats also reminds me of that segment of investors who believe that, if you can just look at the right #s in the right way, past stock performance will tell you which stock to buy next...except it doesn't work). Anyway, as I read the articles & viewed the boat designer list (who's work serves to establish the optimum values on which the ratings are based), several thoughts popped into my head (stated below) on which I'd welcome further comment, since I'm still puzzling thru them myself. 1. The designers (Alberg, Alden, etc.) are either nearing the end of their careers, retired, or disceased. I think it's fair to say they represent several earlier eras in boat design philosophy, altho' Paine & Perry may be exceptions. Is it reasonable to believe that these designers represent the 'best thinking' available today in cruising boat design? Or do they just represent one form of 'conventional thinking'? Would the designs of a few younger designers (e.g. Schumacher, Racoupeau, Fauroux, Wylie) produce significantly different results? (My guess would by 'yes'). 2. The list (of designers & boats) is pretty ethnocentric, i.e., essentially American in nature. We know intuitively that many nations and cultures share a rich maritime history, so it's fair to wonder if a wider scope wouldn't offer differing views. As just one example, you can't spend much time out in the world's cruising grounds before discovering most French cruisers have quite a unique view on the 'best cruising boat' for the non-rich: it's metal; it's a sloop; the boat may have 1,2 or 3 keels and 1 or 2 rudders but can still offer shallow draft when necessary; and cosmetics usually come in a poor second to functionality, strength and low cost. Regretably, there isn't even a peek at this trend nor the designers who have met these needs in John's analysis, nor any other 'culturally influenced' design trends. 3. When you collapse the work of a given designer (I'm thinking e.g. of Perry or Paine) across all the years they've been designing, don't you end up with homogenized design values that, by the nature of the analytical process, disguise what a given designer has learned over the years? Maybe we'd receive better guidance by looking at Paine's last 2 designs rather than all of them. Or don't you lose what a designer has learned about working to a given design brief? E.g. if 3 customers each bring Perry requests for boats that emphasize a) speedy passages, b) at-sea comfort, and c) load carrying capability, Perry would draw 3 different sets of lines - and all 3 would be equally appropriate. I'm left wondering what we learn from blending these numbers together? I'm going to post these comments to John, as well. Hopefully, he might have some comments that would prove useful in this discussion. But thanks to Ed, in any event, for passing along the URL. Jack
...was, I thought, quite interesting and especially so the articles and correlation factors on commonly recognized (mostly U.S. manufactured) 'cruising boats'. John Holtrop deserves a lot of praise and our thanks for putting this data together. (The goal of using statistical analysis to pick 'good' cruising boats also reminds me of that segment of investors who believe that, if you can just look at the right #s in the right way, past stock performance will tell you which stock to buy next...except it doesn't work). Anyway, as I read the articles & viewed the boat designer list (who's work serves to establish the optimum values on which the ratings are based), several thoughts popped into my head (stated below) on which I'd welcome further comment, since I'm still puzzling thru them myself. 1. The designers (Alberg, Alden, etc.) are either nearing the end of their careers, retired, or disceased. I think it's fair to say they represent several earlier eras in boat design philosophy, altho' Paine & Perry may be exceptions. Is it reasonable to believe that these designers represent the 'best thinking' available today in cruising boat design? Or do they just represent one form of 'conventional thinking'? Would the designs of a few younger designers (e.g. Schumacher, Racoupeau, Fauroux, Wylie) produce significantly different results? (My guess would by 'yes'). 2. The list (of designers & boats) is pretty ethnocentric, i.e., essentially American in nature. We know intuitively that many nations and cultures share a rich maritime history, so it's fair to wonder if a wider scope wouldn't offer differing views. As just one example, you can't spend much time out in the world's cruising grounds before discovering most French cruisers have quite a unique view on the 'best cruising boat' for the non-rich: it's metal; it's a sloop; the boat may have 1,2 or 3 keels and 1 or 2 rudders but can still offer shallow draft when necessary; and cosmetics usually come in a poor second to functionality, strength and low cost. Regretably, there isn't even a peek at this trend nor the designers who have met these needs in John's analysis, nor any other 'culturally influenced' design trends. 3. When you collapse the work of a given designer (I'm thinking e.g. of Perry or Paine) across all the years they've been designing, don't you end up with homogenized design values that, by the nature of the analytical process, disguise what a given designer has learned over the years? Maybe we'd receive better guidance by looking at Paine's last 2 designs rather than all of them. Or don't you lose what a designer has learned about working to a given design brief? E.g. if 3 customers each bring Perry requests for boats that emphasize a) speedy passages, b) at-sea comfort, and c) load carrying capability, Perry would draw 3 different sets of lines - and all 3 would be equally appropriate. I'm left wondering what we learn from blending these numbers together? I'm going to post these comments to John, as well. Hopefully, he might have some comments that would prove useful in this discussion. But thanks to Ed, in any event, for passing along the URL. Jack
J
Jack Tyler
John Holtrop's follow-up...and mine
I promised I'd share any follow-up comments of John's to the observations (reservations, I guess I'd call them) I posted here. Here is his follow-up email to me: "Hi Jack, You raise some interesting questions regarding the "validity" of the selection process used in my program. Like you mentioned, its just one of many filters that people can use to help in selecting a cruising boat. My hope is that once someone becomes familiar with the fuzzy logic process, they can modify it to suit their requirements, and identify boats "close" to those requirements. Unfortunately, the math scares off most people. My personal bias is towards older designs, and designers, that specialized in offshore designs - before gps and satellite weather forecasts. I believe today's designers are heavily influenced by marketing data that rewards speed, light weight, large interiors, wide beam, and flimsy (inexpensive) rigs. These boats sell, are fun to sail, and many go offshore, but are they really optimized for blue water sailing? I don't think so. Best Regards John" FWIW here was my response to his email: "John, thanks for your reply. A couple of follow-on comments... [My personal bias is towards older designs, and designers, that specialized in offshore designs - before gps and satellite weather forecasts.] I think that makes my point for me. It's not that your measurements are 'wrong' in any sense; they are just historically or geographically or otherwise slanted to a particular subset of designs. To suggest them as a 'best' baseline or absolute set of references, without acknowledging what they omit, seems a bit incomplete to my way of thinking. [I believe today's designers are heavily influenced by marketing data that rewards speed, light weight, large interiors, wide beam, and flimsy (inexpensive) rigs. These boats sell, are fun to sail, and many go offshore, but are they really optimized for blue water sailing? I don't think so.] I agree with your depiction of some contemporary designs & designers but I think you make a huge leap to move from 'Good Offshore Designs' to this statement. Boats that come to my mind when I read your comment were Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus, Jeanneaus and such - and with the misguided exception of a few Hunter models, none of these boats are billed as model offshore designs. Instead, they are sold pretty much in the vein you describe them: large interiors are lauded, slippery speeds are quoted because they lack so little underbody, ease of handling is emphasized but not ultimate storm management capacity, and so forth. OTOH if we were to look at contemporary designs and boats that are built, marketed and sought after by offshore sailors for offshore use, wouldn't we be talking about the latter day Valiants, many of Chuck Paine's desgins, Frer's Hallberg-Rassys and many of the French designs being built in a host of materials today? I think you'd find it pretty tough to to convince knowledgeable offshore sailors that these are 'flimsy' or not designed & built carefully with an eye to offshore use. And I guess my point is that these designs do reflect progressive learning & improvement in how the boat can be sailed and managed offshore...as well as offering better crew comfort and capacity. This isn't a slam against the venerable designers you rely on - it's just reflecting the view that boat design hasn't been stagnant for the last 50 years and that the best learning includes those learnings. "BTW I reflect on a couple we've come to know here in St. Pete who, over the last 14 years(!), have built a faithful replica of a L. Francis Herrschoff(sp?) ketch - a 39' boat that's heralded in Herrschoff's book as being a Compleat Cruiser. The boat's in the water now, sails finally bent on, and it's lovely - the lines stop people dead in their tracks, along with tons of varnish. And as I look at the boat, I'm struck by how unsafe it is by contemporary standards, how uncomfortable the cockpit, how poor the crew protection from the elements, how little freeboard and how wet she'll be even in coastal waters, and we've already seen how painfully difficult she is to maintain. And yet, when I was first getting into sailing and boat ownership in the early 70's, Herrschoff's book was considered one of the bibles. We've come a long, long way since his time...and I suppose my point is that we didn't stall out sometime in the 70's, along the way. "Thanks again for your efforts; hope you don't think of this as criticism so much as feedback intended to improve your product or at least modify how you market it on your website." Regards, Jack Tyler
I promised I'd share any follow-up comments of John's to the observations (reservations, I guess I'd call them) I posted here. Here is his follow-up email to me: "Hi Jack, You raise some interesting questions regarding the "validity" of the selection process used in my program. Like you mentioned, its just one of many filters that people can use to help in selecting a cruising boat. My hope is that once someone becomes familiar with the fuzzy logic process, they can modify it to suit their requirements, and identify boats "close" to those requirements. Unfortunately, the math scares off most people. My personal bias is towards older designs, and designers, that specialized in offshore designs - before gps and satellite weather forecasts. I believe today's designers are heavily influenced by marketing data that rewards speed, light weight, large interiors, wide beam, and flimsy (inexpensive) rigs. These boats sell, are fun to sail, and many go offshore, but are they really optimized for blue water sailing? I don't think so. Best Regards John" FWIW here was my response to his email: "John, thanks for your reply. A couple of follow-on comments... [My personal bias is towards older designs, and designers, that specialized in offshore designs - before gps and satellite weather forecasts.] I think that makes my point for me. It's not that your measurements are 'wrong' in any sense; they are just historically or geographically or otherwise slanted to a particular subset of designs. To suggest them as a 'best' baseline or absolute set of references, without acknowledging what they omit, seems a bit incomplete to my way of thinking. [I believe today's designers are heavily influenced by marketing data that rewards speed, light weight, large interiors, wide beam, and flimsy (inexpensive) rigs. These boats sell, are fun to sail, and many go offshore, but are they really optimized for blue water sailing? I don't think so.] I agree with your depiction of some contemporary designs & designers but I think you make a huge leap to move from 'Good Offshore Designs' to this statement. Boats that come to my mind when I read your comment were Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus, Jeanneaus and such - and with the misguided exception of a few Hunter models, none of these boats are billed as model offshore designs. Instead, they are sold pretty much in the vein you describe them: large interiors are lauded, slippery speeds are quoted because they lack so little underbody, ease of handling is emphasized but not ultimate storm management capacity, and so forth. OTOH if we were to look at contemporary designs and boats that are built, marketed and sought after by offshore sailors for offshore use, wouldn't we be talking about the latter day Valiants, many of Chuck Paine's desgins, Frer's Hallberg-Rassys and many of the French designs being built in a host of materials today? I think you'd find it pretty tough to to convince knowledgeable offshore sailors that these are 'flimsy' or not designed & built carefully with an eye to offshore use. And I guess my point is that these designs do reflect progressive learning & improvement in how the boat can be sailed and managed offshore...as well as offering better crew comfort and capacity. This isn't a slam against the venerable designers you rely on - it's just reflecting the view that boat design hasn't been stagnant for the last 50 years and that the best learning includes those learnings. "BTW I reflect on a couple we've come to know here in St. Pete who, over the last 14 years(!), have built a faithful replica of a L. Francis Herrschoff(sp?) ketch - a 39' boat that's heralded in Herrschoff's book as being a Compleat Cruiser. The boat's in the water now, sails finally bent on, and it's lovely - the lines stop people dead in their tracks, along with tons of varnish. And as I look at the boat, I'm struck by how unsafe it is by contemporary standards, how uncomfortable the cockpit, how poor the crew protection from the elements, how little freeboard and how wet she'll be even in coastal waters, and we've already seen how painfully difficult she is to maintain. And yet, when I was first getting into sailing and boat ownership in the early 70's, Herrschoff's book was considered one of the bibles. We've come a long, long way since his time...and I suppose my point is that we didn't stall out sometime in the 70's, along the way. "Thanks again for your efforts; hope you don't think of this as criticism so much as feedback intended to improve your product or at least modify how you market it on your website." Regards, Jack Tyler
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