What Would You Do?

Ross · Feb 3, 2009

If you have the mast down you should be able to get all of the wire work done by the lowest bidder and do the attachments yourself.

sailaway78 · Feb 3, 2009

Swageless fittings

If you are capable of doing this yourself, buy the wire and fittings and do it yourself. I recently did my forestay, using the swageless fittings. Pretty simple and easy. Just measure carefully and follow the directions.

Benny · Feb 3, 2009

Unless you got a written estimate includying materials specifications and work to be performed with contract conditions you aint got much dirt to dig your heels into. You can offer to split the difference with them but don't be dissapointed if they decline. You could scale down the job by asking a rigger to inspect the wires and fittings and just replace those that may be doubtful. 10 years is not a lot for standing rigging as they can last upwards of 25 years provided they are inspected regularly. Perhaps replacing a couple of fittings and one or two wires and tuning the rig can get you by with under $500 for another 10 years. I would replace the headstay wire as it is hidden under the fuler foil and it is not accecible for visual inspection. Also keep a log of which wires and fittings were replaced at what date so you can keep track of replacements. Some will say is best to do it all at once but that is your call and is a matter of convenience vs $$$.

Barnacle Bill · Feb 3, 2009

This is not rocket science. If they know the exact measurements and size of your cable, the type of fittings required, etc. there should be no confusion as to the cost. Any store that does such work should have a set price for swaqing, etc. One thing about doing business with a boat yard, is they often know what they are doing. Doing business with a mass retail store, while their prices might be cheap, they are short on knowledge in many cases. I have experienced too many times low paid, untrained store staff in discount stores who really don't have the knowledge or experience to give you sound advise. This is not always the case with all of those store's employees, but it is the case with many, I have found. Boat yards might charge a bit more, but a reputable one will do the job right the first time and if they don't they are obligated to make it right. That's my 3 cents.

Manny · Feb 3, 2009

If it were me I'd go to Rigging Only's website and check out there catalog. You can estimate their cost of replacing all your rigging. If it works out to be less (including yard fees) give em a call, then box up all your rigging and send it to them to make exact duplicates. I did that with mine about two years ago and I got everything back in less than a week.

Manny

BTW - now is the time to replace all the wiring in the mast

BobM · Feb 4, 2009

Another vote for Rigging Only (they have treated me right) and for sending your rigging to whomever is reproducing it to make sure you get it right (which may be a vote for going local so you don't have to risk the post.

sailingdog · Feb 4, 2009

I'd second calling www.riggingonly.com, as they're good people.

MKirk51 · Feb 4, 2009

Another vote for riggingonly. I sent them mine last year (except for the headstay) and was very satisfied. I did have my yard do the headstay, which leads to this question. I don't wanna side track the thread but it relates somewhat.
How have others replaced a headstay within a roller furler? I took everything apart myself as far as I could go without separating all the foils. I asked the yard about it and they said I'd probably tear the foils up trying to remove them. So I let them do the headstay, which they did by cutting off the swage on one end, spot-welding the new stay to the old, and then pulling it through the still assembled foils. Anyone ever hear of it done that way? I can't remember the exact price but I'm thinking it was 6 or 7 hundred, labor and materials. I figured it was cheaper than trying to replace wrecked foils.

Bob Poff · Feb 4, 2009

Are you contractually commited to West Marine?
Have they special ordered material?
If not you're free to do what you want.

I understand the feeling of not wanting to cause trouble for someone.
Which is highly commendable.
But you could consider it OJT for the store and the person.

Just approach it with facts and figures, calm and pleasant.

SamLust · Feb 4, 2009

If you must separate foils.

Harken uses Locktite red anerobic locking compound. Remove the set screw, heat the joint with a hair dryer or electric heat gun and slide apart.

For foils glued with silicone (Hood to my knowledge) I have used two pieces of rope with a rolling hitch around each foil. I can't recall eaxctly how we did it but I do remember we used the frame of my heavy boat/fire engine trailer as a bed and rigged a jack to pull the sections apart. No marring or damage at all to the foils.

As far as the rigging, Rigging Only is my first choice also. You simply have to measure all of your wire, add a bit for "shrinkage", order up the wires and terminals and do it yourself. Just measure pin center to pin center. I usualy go about 1/4" shorter to compensate for stretch. You of course checked your turnbuckles before the mast came down? Not a real tough job.

Stu Jackson · Feb 4, 2009

I'd look in the mirror and give myself a head slap

for thinking that a $2,200 job could be obtained for $1,200 without more questioning up front. You dug your own hole and it ain't WM's fault. A little bit more homework up front would've eliminated the problem. Your boat, your choice as to where you go for rigging material now. Balance out the daily yard cost against your other options.

Hermit Scott · Feb 4, 2009

I went to a west marine that was closing and one salesman quoted me a price for bottom paint for $60 a gal. I go back to get it and the manager shows up and tells me it's really $200 a gal. We argued for 30 minutes until he made a math error and I accepted his offer. Then when he calculated it, it was $60 a gal. He kept trying to counter offer me. I just kept telling him, they should stand by their quotes. That's just how some people do business. They have no honor.
I was at a transmission shop and they tried to rip me off. I told him I was going to get my friends from college and picket their new location that just opened up on the nice side of town. He recanted when he thought it might cost him his job.
One brake shop tried to rip off one of my friends that was a girl. After a short conversation, I told him if he raised his finger near my face again, I would break it off.
I was fully ready to uphold my promises to these people. The money is not the problem, it's the lying and deception I can not abide. I guess I have a problem letting it go when people do these thigns. Some people can just walk away. But I would not do business with the people that lied to you. Shop around, you will find more honorable people and probably better prices to go with it.

dancing bear · Feb 4, 2009

Push back hard, and if it fails, screw 'em.

Franklin · Feb 4, 2009

Funny you should ask. I counted my fittings for my B&R rig which has about 20 of them, so that's 1,000. The wire I calculated at $500 at most. I believe my rig has more fittings and more wire then most other rigs, so I think if you bought the wire and fittings online, you'd get them for about $1,200 and then you'd just have to do the work yourself. Doesn't seem that hard if the mast is already down.

Jim · Feb 4, 2009

Guess what, it is a boat. You'll have to pay the price 2900.

What I would do is inspect not replace the standing rigging. It is only 10 years old. Too soon to be replaced.

Franklin · Feb 4, 2009

Jim said:
Guess what, it is a boat. You'll have to pay the price 2900.

What I would do is inspect not replace the standing rigging. It is only 10 years old. Too soon to be replaced.

All depends on how the boat is used. Just day sailing and weekend sailing in protected waters...20 years + is good. Plan on going around the world...replace it before you go.

There are boats here I'm sure with 30+ years on it's rigging but they are hardly ever used and when used, not put to much stress.

So ask yourself, how much stress has been put on it? What do I plan on doing in the future? Do I think I could be in the middle of the ocean with 30+ foot waves throwing the boat around? Has it already had that?

Each boat has a different history and future so you can't just judge it by years. Go with your gut feeling on whether to replace it or not, but don't get the parts from WM as they are always a good 50% higher at least. If the mast is already down, the hard part is already done so do it yourself and have $600-$1,000.

jibes138 · Feb 5, 2009

Stress

Perhaps someone can explain how applying stress to a steel cable well below the yield point of the material is a reason for replacement? Steel is elastic up to the yield point , and in the case of 300 series stainless, it is pretty ductile. If you go beyond the yield point you will know it as the cable is now much longer. Below the yield point and fatigue is your concern but the cables are not in high cycle fatigue, maybe a little from vibrations, but even if you use 50% of the yield point for a fatigue safety factor I'll bet you hardly every load the cables up to that point. So the cables should last indefinitely if not physically damaged by some circumstance. I'd worry a lot more about the fittings and swages where water can collect and cause corrosion. Creep is not a problem with the cable because you are at low temperatures and creep is an elevated temperature problem found on things like turbine blades in engines.
Stress corrosion cracking is a real problem and I lost a lower shroud on a catalina 25 once because of it. Sounded like a rifle shot. The shroud was fine but the bolt used as a chainplate was corroding at the root of one of the threads. You'd never know it without an NDT process to inspect for it like flourescent penetrant inspection..

Franklin · Feb 5, 2009

jibes138 said:
Perhaps someone can explain how applying stress to a steel cable well below the yield point of the material is a reason for replacement? .... Below the yield point and fatigue is your concern but the cables are not in high cycle fatigue, maybe a little from vibrations, but even if you use 50% of the yield point for a fatigue safety factor I'll bet you hardly every load the cables up to that point. .....

Nasty stuff offshore causes fatigue. That's why mast break offshore in nasty stuff. If you are in that stuff and your mast doesn't break doesn't mean you didn't subtract a good amount of life off the mast and rigging.

Like I said, if you sail in protected waters all the time, no sweat. If you sail offshore, the waves jerk the mast around which causes fatigue, and it's not in the line, but the connectors. Now if you only go into waves 1-2 times a year, don't sweat it. But if you are having that mast jerked around 40 days a year, then change them after 10 years.

As my menitor has told me, no good captain is going to go around the world with rigging over 10 years old and I totally agree with him. When you are out in the middle of the little pond, 1,500 miles from anywhere, and you loose your mast because the rigging gave way, then I bet you'll be kicking yourself for not spending that $1,500 and a couple days of work.