What would you change....

[Been there]

Resale value ???

I keep hearing this, but what stats show it? As an experiment, I decided to look at asking prices on Yachtworld. Two problems. (a) You can't fairly compare new boat to old boat asking price. Advertised new boat price is a teaser that is LOWER than actual selling price. Advertised used boat price is always higher than selling price. So I tried to compare 1999 models selling used to older models. (b) It is hard to find boat models for which there is a good time span of data. I struck out with IP, Tartan, Valiant, Freedom and J Boats. Model changes or absence of boats on market did not allow comparison. If someone has BUC at hand, please post better data. Here is what I found:Hunter Legend 42: four 1999 hulls, average ask $222K, two 1990 hulls, average ask $145K. NINE YEAR DEPRECIATION: 35%.Catalina 42 Mk 2: one 1998 hull, ask $167K, six 1989 hulls, average ask $119K. NINE YEAR DEPRECIATION: 29%Pacific Seacraft 37: one 1999 hull, ask $228K, one 1991 hull, ask $184K. EIGHT YEAR DEPRECIATION: 19%.Maybe the ninth year is where the PS 37 really takes a big plunge in value. Short of this fantasy, is there data buttressing the notion that Hunter sailboats depreciate less than those built by other builders?

 

[Bill Sheehy]

Won't work

How can you compare a 1990 with a 1999? The 1999 is the new 420 model. What you need to know is what price the person paid for it verus what they have sold it for. I bought a 91 33.5 new and slod it 4 years later. I lost $5,000. The 91 37.5 which I got at the same time had went up in value of $13k in 2 years. I paid the same for my Passage 42 as what it sold for new in 91. Here in the Seattle area Hunters hold their value pretty good. Don't know anything about the new Hunters and how they are only the boats from the early 90's.

 

[Been there]

Bill, should be Passage 42, not Legend

Yachtworld shows Passage 42s from 1990 to 1999. You're right it is hard to compare depreciation, when so few models are made for several years in a row.

 

[Phil Herring]

Interesting can of worms

I've never thought about this, but there must be 100 ways to calculate resale value, depending on what you wanted the result to look like. You could go so far as to figure the discount on the money, even. But I would think, with all the variables on boats in terms of equipment, region, new vs. used baseine price, etc., it would be almost impossible to come up with any hard data.It would be interesting, though, just for kicks, to compare the cost (I like the new vs used method) on Beneteaus, Catalinas, and Hunters of similar LOA and time spans. although it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it...

 

[Steve Dion]

I would think..

I would think that if we could use the "Base Price (list)" of these boats for the specific model years as our guideline. Regardless of the "upgrades" and lack of upkeep, then just get average prices on the resales we should have something to work with.This will make a assumption that Cat, Beneteau and Hunter owners negelect or keep there boat up equally. There is a website that gives the prices that owners have sold the the boat for. Lots of research work but we should be able to get some good numbers.I think we are going to find that a boat that is 15-20 years old in fair to good condition has held it's value very well. The boats that are not going to fair as well are the mfg. that are no longer in business. The resale value on used boats in general is going up. I believe that this is due to the price of new boats climbing so fast.

 

[Been there]

Can't compare base to used price

This faulty comparison may be the reason you sometimes here about a one year-old boat selling for MORE than a brand new boat. Are people really making a profit by owning a new boat for a year? Is there anyone who would by the same boat for more, just because it is a year old?The answer is: no. Production boat distribution is much like cars. In either case, what you pay for a new boat is NOT the base price, but the base price plus dealer charges plus option charges plus .. etc. The buyer of a one-year old boat gets all this stuff for one price. No fair comparing *this* price to base price. Equally bad for looking at depreciation, the pricing mechanism of new boats changes over the years.

 

[Been there]

Phil, you're right: opportunity cost is important!

Consider two people buying new boats. One spends $150K, the other $300K. After twelve years, they each sell their boat, for $100K and $250K respectively. Each boat depreciated $50K. The former might worry that his boat depreciated 33%, while the latter brags that his depreciated only 20%.Who came out ahead? Without a doubt, the one who bought the less expensive boat. They both lost $50K on the boats themselves, but while the latter had $300K tied up for twelve years, the former only had $150K in the boat. If he started with the same $300K budget, and invested the second $150K in CDs, he doubled his money, and at the end of the period, could buy a NEW $150K boat with the interest! Or, he could collect $750 a month in guaranteed income for life while cruising.Bottom line: depreciation is just one part of the total cost of ownership, which is what really matters. This means you ARE wiser than those who spend too much of their savings on new, high-end boats. Of course, those who buy used boats may be wiser yet.

 

[WARREN FELDSTEIN]

why buy a boat at all

I recently wrestled with the decision to buy a 460 or keep my cs36 merlin.the 460 costs a great deal more money. I started by considering that the difference in dollars say 150k could be invested at say 15% annual compound and that this 150k would double every 5 years or so. Given that my investment horizon is say 30 years, I am foregoing approximately 4-5 million dollars to buy that boat. This logic can be applied to every purchase. If you do apply it, then you will live for the almighty dollar. What is the point to life. If it is simply to accumulate net worth, then you should not take holiday have boats etc. I have 2 kids. They are still young and I want to give them good experiences and memories? What is that worth. How do I measure it? To me, the decision to buy the bigger boat comes from determining what my savings presently is, how fast it is growing and will I still have the same standard of living and likely retirment comfort after buying the bigger boat. I told my wife that if we have to cut other things out of life then we should not buy the bigger boat. In other words, the kids should still go to camp, we should still go on holidays and if she wants a new pair of shoes, she should not feel guilty about buying. We must remember that we probably only go around once in this life. And we do not know how long that life will be.As for new vs. used. I have had several boats new and used. I am feel more attached to those boats that I purchased new. If new gives more satisfaction, I am for it. I had great times with the used boats, but the memories are not the same. When you buy used, you acquire someone elses comprimises. When you buy a new boat, you stamp the boat with your decisions on instruments, fabrics NAME etc. The boat becomes a reflection of yourself.As a practicing Chartered Accountant ( CPA equivalent) I can tell you that we should not measure by dollars and cents alone. We are trying to maximize many things during our life time. For example quality relations,memories, helping others etc. A boat helps us achieve these goals.I think it would be neat to do a survey and see if I am alone in having greater attachment to new vs. used boats. The results would be interesting.Warren

 

[Been there]

I agree, Warren

Money is just a means. It is, though, a limited means. Because of that, people should understand how it works. Those who don't risk making choices to the detriment of the things in life that DO matter.Two people want to go cruising. They have similar wealth and income. The first believes he needs a Valiant 40. He buys a late model, financing much of it, planning to pay it off down the road. The second buys an old Hunter 37C, outfits it, and goes. After three years cruising, his total outlay is the same as the first sailor's down payment on the Valiant. This example is contrived. It shows the benefit of buying an older, economical boat. That's not my point. Another, equally valid story would show the benefit of buying a brand new boat. It all depends on the desires and financial means of those involved. And THAT is where I think we agree. My previous posts were not meant to imply that buying new is always a mistake. They were meant only to help people understand how to compare costs. Buying a new boat for what I want is not even an option. Another person with different goals and skills, and different financial situation, should absolutely buy new.Regarding your survey, it is hard for someone who has never owned a new boat to imagine how it would seem different from owning used. I've felt a lot of attachment to all of the the boats I've owned. Would I feel more for a new boat? Maybe. I just don't know.I came late to sailing. I sometimes wish that it were something my parents did, that they had introduced me to as a kid. When I imagine what kind of boat I would have wanted my parents to have, when I was twelve, I imagine something like an older J-24, that would have been fun to sail, that is small enough for a kid to handle themself, and that you would let a kid modify, not too worried about them harming it, because it does not represent a great deal of wealth. But that's just me.

 

[Phil Herring]

Attachments

I've owned one used boat and two new. I bonded to some degree with the used boat (the first boat I owned). I bonded tremendously with the first new boat I bought, for exactly the reason warren describes: I chose all the compromises, waited anxiously for delivery, watched the boat splash down, sweated (and hovered over) the commissioning, and moved aboard when it was done. I knew (almost) every cable run on that boat and drilled at least eight holes I late had to fill. That boat, for me, was "my boat." My last boat was new also, but I never bonded with it the same way, probably because I didn't live aboard very long and my life was headed in other directions. I'm not sure if use or new is better. They both have distinct advantages. buying a new boat can be like starting a new career, but it certainly has its rewards. Buying used is probably more practical for most, but has its drawbacks, too. If I were buying today I'd buy used because of the time involved in the early stages of ownership (less). But a new boat is like a blank canvas waiting to be filled, and it can be irresistible!

 

[Bill Sheehy]

Used

I would by used instead of new. Part of the reason is because of all the problems I had with my dealer when I had bought a new boat. None of the 4 boats that I have bought stayed a basic boat as I enjoy working on them.

 

[Jay Hill]

Used vs. New

We're a little off the original path, but "what the heck"For me, I have weighed the dollars-in-pocket vs. waiting to get underway issue carefully. I would love to have the "new" Valiant 40 (actually 42RS) but find that if I cut the check, the savings are history and I then could not afford to cruise for very long if at all. If I choose a new Hunter (or Catalina, Beneteau, etc., etc.) the price is still a tall order. In a classic trade-off, am I willing to take someone else's problems, decisions, upgrades, mistakes, poor repairs, etc. for the advantage of being able to cruise earlier? For me, yes, gimme the problems as I enjoy fixing them; gimme the lower price, I can drink more beer; gimme the tiny little jobs that never get done, it keeps me busy waiting for a weather window; gimme the question of structural stability, it keeps me extra cautious and alert for weather changes. All of which add to the excitement. But as with all of us, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong"81 days

 

[Been there]

Structural stability??

Every time I have bought a used boat, my minimum requirement is that its hull, keel, deck, floors, bulwarks are all sound, and their joints all solid and tight. This is something that a surveyor can check, unless a builder has hidden the most important parts of the boat in spaces that cannot be reached. Given that everything is as it should be, durability is then more a matter of construction than age. Many older boats are structurally as solid and stable as boats new off the line.

 

[Jay Hill]

Been,

I agree strongly. Maybe I should have used the words "strong enough" in referrence to heading out into very foul weather. Not sure I want to survive another hurricane; it's not much fun.In fact, any wave over 20' is no longer fun for me so I'll buy a boat that will handle what I will put it through.

 

[Steve Cook]

New vs. Used

I have had 2 used and one new boat.I wanted used for my pressent boat but the bank made in impossable with the short terms.I did not or do not have large sums of cash to shell out for any boat, a loan was the only way.My bank was willing to give me a 30 year note on a new boat and a lower intrest rate than a used boat, (5-7 years) at a higher rate.Will I keep my new boat for 30 years? NO WAY!!! 15 year max.Will I buy new next time?Tough call, I sure don't wanna go through the commishioning and shake down hassels again.If I buy used, I let the first owner go the headachs and I get a proven and better equipped boat.If I buy new, I get the lastest in technology and the feeling that the boat was made just for me.Did I make a bad investment?I don't think so, I want to make my memories now and enjoy while I still can.As the saying goes, "Carpe Diem"!!!Wow, is this off toppic or what?Steve,H310 s/v The Odyssey...

 

[John Van Wagoner]

My one improvement

Back to the one improvement we could suggest to Hunter. The cockpit floor on the 410 has too much flex. Because of this it is impossible to tighten up the steering pedestal so that it is rigid. Strengthen the floor and the pedestal attachment.Having said this, Hunter sent a technician out to my boat and stabilized the floor of the cockpit and did their best to tighten up the pedestal. It worked reasonably well but a few years from now I'll have to have something else done.And finally, a word about Eddie Breeden. He is one of the best things about Hunter Marine. I think that he has probably done more to sell Hunter sailboats than all the advertising combined. Thanks for all your help.

 

[John Van Wagoner]

My one improvement

Back to the one improvement we could suggest to Hunter. The cockpit floor on the 410 has too much flex. Because of this it is impossible to tighten up the steering pedestal so that it is rigid. Strengthen the floor and the pedestal attachment.Having said this, Hunter sent a technician out to my boat and stabilized the floor of the cockpit and did their best to tighten up the pedestal. It worked reasonably well but a few years from now I'll have to have something else done.And finally, a word about Eddie Breeden. He is one of the best things about Hunter Marine. I think that he has probably done more to sell Hunter sailboats than all the advertising combined. Thanks for all your help.