Hello all. Newbie here and I have a question about which boat to start with. I have been a boater for 30 years and am interested in trying out some sailing. The Mac seems like a great first boat and can't make up my mind about what size. There are some 25's which are cheaper than 19's. Specifically, what are tha advantages of the water ballast on the 19 vs. the swing keel on the 22's or 25's. One better than the other? Which would be best for a first boat? Any other thoughts which would assist me in making this decision would be appreciated. Thanks, Bill
What to buy?
- Thread starter Bill22305
- Start date
- Status
1st sailboat
You didn't say how you wanted to use your sail boat, so it's a hard question to answer. For just day sailing, a day sailer might be better, but may not be cheaper. Family of 4, then bigger is better, as far as trailer sail boats goes. Over nighting, check out the cabins. Of corse it all comes down to what's available and for what price too. The old 19' Macs would be a good boat to learn to sail on. As would about any small sail boat. I would get a boat with both a main and jib, if moving up is on your mind. Nothig is easier to sail or faster to set up than a sunfish. But depending on where you live these can demand a pretty good price, even on an old one. Want to race, look at Lasers, Optimus, Sun Fish. Want to cruise look at the Macs and Ventures. If you are going to leave it in the water and only trailer once in a while, look at the Catalinas, and Hunters, or even the 25' O'Day. If you have the money and want the top of the line trailer sailboats, look at the Compac 25 or the Montgomery.
You didn't say how you wanted to use your sail boat, so it's a hard question to answer. For just day sailing, a day sailer might be better, but may not be cheaper. Family of 4, then bigger is better, as far as trailer sail boats goes. Over nighting, check out the cabins. Of corse it all comes down to what's available and for what price too. The old 19' Macs would be a good boat to learn to sail on. As would about any small sail boat. I would get a boat with both a main and jib, if moving up is on your mind. Nothig is easier to sail or faster to set up than a sunfish. But depending on where you live these can demand a pretty good price, even on an old one. Want to race, look at Lasers, Optimus, Sun Fish. Want to cruise look at the Macs and Ventures. If you are going to leave it in the water and only trailer once in a while, look at the Catalinas, and Hunters, or even the 25' O'Day. If you have the money and want the top of the line trailer sailboats, look at the Compac 25 or the Montgomery.
My first snailboat: 
Greg: Thanks for the reply. I'm not going to go for the top end on my first sailor. The Mac intrigued me because it is relatively inexpensive and it would give me some transition time between power and sail. I will use this boat in the Chesapeake Bay and it will be trailered. I have a power vessel in Delaware on which to fish and cruise. I want to spend more time on the Bay, where I live more than in DE. I have had boats in the past on the Bay and miss it. It will be just my wife and I and an occasional others as we have moved to empty nesterhood - last one in college. So, while some older 25's might be less expensive than the newer 19's, I'm inclined to the shorter vessel for now, as we learn. I'm in the info gathering stage. Thanks for your comments and I welcome more. Bill
Greg: Thanks for the reply. I'm not going to go for the top end on my first sailor. The Mac intrigued me because it is relatively inexpensive and it would give me some transition time between power and sail. I will use this boat in the Chesapeake Bay and it will be trailered. I have a power vessel in Delaware on which to fish and cruise. I want to spend more time on the Bay, where I live more than in DE. I have had boats in the past on the Bay and miss it. It will be just my wife and I and an occasional others as we have moved to empty nesterhood - last one in college. So, while some older 25's might be less expensive than the newer 19's, I'm inclined to the shorter vessel for now, as we learn. I'm in the info gathering stage. Thanks for your comments and I welcome more. Bill
1st boat
Bill, my first real boat is my 1985 M25. Prior to this I had learned sailing way back when in Boy Scouts, mainly on Sunfish boats. I had a small 14 foot Starcraft for awhile which was fun but too small for my wife's comfort. I had gone out a couple of times with a friend of my brother on a 23 foot something??? When I decided to get a family boat I went with the 25. A couple of reasons for this. I had been on a 23 and found it ok but really cramped in the cabin. Not that the Mac is huge, but at least the portapotti isn't under the table. Also, I figured I would end up moving up to a 25 in the next couple of years so decided to just start there. The larger boat also helped with my wife's confidence at sea. We took it easy the first couple of years, sailing with just the main on brisk days, main and jib on light days, building our confidence as we went. This season we were actually out in a small craft warning (not on purpose) but did ok. A little nervous but a big confidence boost in the end. If I had to do it over again, I would still choose the 25. I like the interior spaces of the new Macs but don't really care for the look. Not traditional enough for me I guess. The 25 trailers well even with the single axle. I'm hoping to haul it to Lake Ontario this summer. We mainly sail in the Bay off Annapolis. Perfect size boat for what I want. Good luck with your quest. By the way, I just bought an old Sunfish for my 11 year old son. At least that's what I told my wife happy sailing. -John
Bill, my first real boat is my 1985 M25. Prior to this I had learned sailing way back when in Boy Scouts, mainly on Sunfish boats. I had a small 14 foot Starcraft for awhile which was fun but too small for my wife's comfort. I had gone out a couple of times with a friend of my brother on a 23 foot something??? When I decided to get a family boat I went with the 25. A couple of reasons for this. I had been on a 23 and found it ok but really cramped in the cabin. Not that the Mac is huge, but at least the portapotti isn't under the table. Also, I figured I would end up moving up to a 25 in the next couple of years so decided to just start there. The larger boat also helped with my wife's confidence at sea. We took it easy the first couple of years, sailing with just the main on brisk days, main and jib on light days, building our confidence as we went. This season we were actually out in a small craft warning (not on purpose) but did ok. A little nervous but a big confidence boost in the end. If I had to do it over again, I would still choose the 25. I like the interior spaces of the new Macs but don't really care for the look. Not traditional enough for me I guess. The 25 trailers well even with the single axle. I'm hoping to haul it to Lake Ontario this summer. We mainly sail in the Bay off Annapolis. Perfect size boat for what I want. Good luck with your quest. By the way, I just bought an old Sunfish for my 11 year old son. At least that's what I told my wife
happy sailing. -John
Headroom?
J. Barrett and I have quite a similar story as to current boat and how we learned to sail. I too graduated from the Sunfish ranks and my first "big" boat is the '85 model M-25 I bought in July. If standing head room is a consideration then the late model 19 may be a better choice- that's really the ONLY reason I would have considered one. (I'm assuming you are talking about the 19 ft. powersailor). Also being able to use up to a 40HP motor on it will get you out of unexpected bad weather a lot quicker. Now the trade-off: you will be sacrificing 6' of cockpit and cabin space. I can tell you as it is with my 25 that four adults can seemed cramped to me, but I'm a little claustrophobic) Also, you will sacrifice some hull speed under sail as I don't believe the sail plan will allow you to plane with a 19. Stability of a longer boat is another thing to consider. I also have the paradigm that the 625 lbs. of castiron hanging 4 ft. under the boat on a 25 makes it more stable. If you think it will be just you and your wife and you will occasionally spend the night on the boat, the 19 might be a good choice. However, if you think the kids might come out for a weekend or other friends, a 25 would be a good thing to have. What ever you do, make up a list of what items are most important to you and prioritize them (i.e. head room, storage space, equipment, condition of sails, sail inventory, engine size, stability, gadgets, etc.) then check out 19's and 25's and see which will fit the bill the best.
J. Barrett and I have quite a similar story as to current boat and how we learned to sail. I too graduated from the Sunfish ranks and my first "big" boat is the '85 model M-25 I bought in July. If standing head room is a consideration then the late model 19 may be a better choice- that's really the ONLY reason I would have considered one. (I'm assuming you are talking about the 19 ft. powersailor). Also being able to use up to a 40HP motor on it will get you out of unexpected bad weather a lot quicker. Now the trade-off: you will be sacrificing 6' of cockpit and cabin space. I can tell you as it is with my 25 that four adults can seemed cramped to me, but I'm a little claustrophobic
) Also, you will sacrifice some hull speed under sail as I don't believe the sail plan will allow you to plane with a 19. Stability of a longer boat is another thing to consider. I also have the paradigm that the 625 lbs. of castiron hanging 4 ft. under the boat on a 25 makes it more stable. If you think it will be just you and your wife and you will occasionally spend the night on the boat, the 19 might be a good choice. However, if you think the kids might come out for a weekend or other friends, a 25 would be a good thing to have. What ever you do, make up a list of what items are most important to you and prioritize them (i.e. head room, storage space, equipment, condition of sails, sail inventory, engine size, stability, gadgets, etc.) then check out 19's and 25's and see which will fit the bill the best.19' vs 25'
J Barrett and Abby, thanks. This is the kind of knowledge I am looking for. Abby, sound advice about the list, I'm in the process of doing just that. Is the swing keel in the 25 more stable than the water ballast in the 19"? I guess I get to feeling that the 25 would be too large, but if I like sailing, which I'm sure I will, then the 19 might end up being too small. Thanks for your thoughts. Bill
J Barrett and Abby, thanks. This is the kind of knowledge I am looking for. Abby, sound advice about the list, I'm in the process of doing just that. Is the swing keel in the 25 more stable than the water ballast in the 19"? I guess I get to feeling that the 25 would be too large, but if I like sailing, which I'm sure I will, then the 19 might end up being too small. Thanks for your thoughts. Bill
Take a look
Bill, I'm not sure how soon you plan/hope to purchase your next boat, but if it isn't until spring you are more than welcome to go out on the Bay with me in my 25. It's on the hard for the winter (actually in my backyard), but you are more than welcome to come take a look and talk about its good and bad points if you'd like. I'm right off the eastern end of the William Preston Lame bridge and home most weekends. I warn you in advance that it's not the cleanest or tidiest ship you will find. I hope to remedy that this winter. I tend to toss stuff below and really need to clean/organize. It didn't help that everything that was sort of organized on the table slid off during that small craft warning. You are welcome to climb in/on/measure etc if it helps with your decision making. If you want to, my cell #is 443-496-0437. I don't claim to know everything about these boats or sailing but I've had the boat a few years now and can generally get from point A to point B (and sometimes back). -John
Bill, I'm not sure how soon you plan/hope to purchase your next boat, but if it isn't until spring you are more than welcome to go out on the Bay with me in my 25. It's on the hard for the winter (actually in my backyard), but you are more than welcome to come take a look and talk about its good and bad points if you'd like. I'm right off the eastern end of the William Preston Lame bridge and home most weekends. I warn you in advance that it's not the cleanest or tidiest ship you will find. I hope to remedy that this winter. I tend to toss stuff below and really need to clean/organize. It didn't help that everything that was sort of organized on the table slid off during that small craft warning
. You are welcome to climb in/on/measure etc if it helps with your decision making. If you want to, my cell #is 443-496-0437. I don't claim to know everything about these boats or sailing but I've had the boat a few years now and can generally get from point A to point B (and sometimes back). -John
Just My Paradigm...
It might be more of a personal paradigm when it comes to the ballast. I just look at it that the weight of the ballast is on a longer lever when it comes to a keel and I've heard some Mac water ballast owners talk about the centerboard not being real effective until you get going a few knots. One thing about a larger boat is you don't have to use all the room available, but if you try to take too much on a smaller boat, you'll be towing a tender for stowage...) Another consideration when it comes to looking at what is available on the classifieds is that '93 and '94 19' Macs seem to range from about $7000 to $10,000, versus $6000 being a really expensive 25. You can find well-equipped 25's in the $4K range. It's my personal opinion, with the exception of the occasional fire sale for a Catalina, Hunter, etc. that Mac is the best value on the used market. Which ever you decide on, you will have bought a safe boat that is very easy to handle and learn to sail on.
It might be more of a personal paradigm when it comes to the ballast. I just look at it that the weight of the ballast is on a longer lever when it comes to a keel and I've heard some Mac water ballast owners talk about the centerboard not being real effective until you get going a few knots. One thing about a larger boat is you don't have to use all the room available, but if you try to take too much on a smaller boat, you'll be towing a tender for stowage...
) Another consideration when it comes to looking at what is available on the classifieds is that '93 and '94 19' Macs seem to range from about $7000 to $10,000, versus $6000 being a really expensive 25. You can find well-equipped 25's in the $4K range. It's my personal opinion, with the exception of the occasional fire sale for a Catalina, Hunter, etc. that Mac is the best value on the used market. Which ever you decide on, you will have bought a safe boat that is very easy to handle and learn to sail on.
M25 -
I sail in Norfolk and the lower bay... The previous owner took the boat down the ICW and back.... Purchased for under $4K.... I can launch and recover by myself though I prefer to have an extra hand.... Since you have a power boat you don't really need a hybrid... I have a 9.9 four stroke and make 6+ knots under power... Not too speedy but enough to get me where I'm going.... I have sailed Sunfish up to 65FT yachts... The M25 has been a lot of fun and still gives me some possibilty of competing with some of the other local sailboat racers... I trailer and keep my boat in my backyard.... Convenient to do work and I keep my hull clean without the hassle of painting the bottom... My wife isn't a sailing fan so I use the boat as my escape... I tinker with the boat and the trailer on a regular basis....
I sail in Norfolk and the lower bay... The previous owner took the boat down the ICW and back.... Purchased for under $4K.... I can launch and recover by myself though I prefer to have an extra hand.... Since you have a power boat you don't really need a hybrid... I have a 9.9 four stroke and make 6+ knots under power... Not too speedy but enough to get me where I'm going.... I have sailed Sunfish up to 65FT yachts... The M25 has been a lot of fun and still gives me some possibilty of competing with some of the other local sailboat racers... I trailer and keep my boat in my backyard.... Convenient to do work and I keep my hull clean without the hassle of painting the bottom... My wife isn't a sailing fan so I use the boat as my escape... I tinker with the boat and the trailer on a regular basis....
You are right
Thanks Bob and Abby. You are right, I don't need a hybrid but the size would be nice. I guess, within reason, a boat can never be too big!!! Thanks for the info on the keel. Makes sense to me. I think you guys convinced me that the 25' is the way to go. I have been talking to a fellow who has a well equipped one for 4K Does the 25 have a pop top thing and what the heck is a lazy jack!!! I don't know much about this terminology, but I'd love to learn. Thanks folks, Bill
Thanks Bob and Abby. You are right, I don't need a hybrid but the size would be nice. I guess, within reason, a boat can never be too big!!! Thanks for the info on the keel. Makes sense to me. I think you guys convinced me that the 25' is the way to go. I have been talking to a fellow who has a well equipped one for 4K Does the 25 have a pop top thing and what the heck is a lazy jack!!! I don't know much about this terminology, but I'd love to learn. Thanks folks, Bill
Pop top it has
Bill, Yes the 25 has a pop top and, if you're lucky, the cover for it when it is raised. They came with a canvas(?) type cover complete with windows which goes over the top when it is raised. It allows you to have the full headroom and still be enclosed. The cover snaps to the deck and companionway and folds up for storage. As far as lazy jacks, that's an owner installed item that I've heard of but am not sure exactly what they are for. Someone else here will have to help with that. $4000 is an average price for a 25. The only problem area that I would check is the area where the mast step bolts to the cabin top. Mine hadn't been maintained well and the deck there was rotten. I knew it when I bought the boat. Just one of the things I had to fix. These boats are very simple and fun to tinker with. I have been very happy with mine and have no plans to switch to anything else. -John
Bill, Yes the 25 has a pop top and, if you're lucky, the cover for it when it is raised. They came with a canvas(?) type cover complete with windows which goes over the top when it is raised. It allows you to have the full headroom and still be enclosed. The cover snaps to the deck and companionway and folds up for storage. As far as lazy jacks, that's an owner installed item that I've heard of but am not sure exactly what they are for. Someone else here will have to help with that. $4000 is an average price for a 25. The only problem area that I would check is the area where the mast step bolts to the cabin top. Mine hadn't been maintained well and the deck there was rotten. I knew it when I bought the boat. Just one of the things I had to fix. These boats are very simple and fun to tinker with. I have been very happy with mine and have no plans to switch to anything else. -John
Lazy Jacks - don't have them, but considering..
..getting 'em installed. They help control dropping the main'sil when single handing. They're a series of lines setup up like a web, so when deployed they form a cradle to help the main'sil fold up nice as you drop it. Bill, I purchased my first boat(sail boat/any boat) last year. I purchased the 1990 MacGregor 26S. It's the classic edition much like the 25 but with a water ballast. I gotta tell ya, it was very easy to get her setup and out on the Bay. I took a two day basic keel boat sailing class to help with procedural stuff(the abc's) and away I went. I guess I had a lot of faith in myself! Anyways, it was very easy to learn on and I was out most every weekend this past summer and a couple overnighters. The only thing I've been disappointed with has been the headroom down below. With the pop-top down, I believe it's 4'5". With the pop-top up, it really helps(stretching out the back). Now, the extra room is very handy, especially when you want to take others along. I've fit 4 very comfortably in the cockpit and five a little snug...(I'm 245lbs) so 4 comfortably says a lot! I think the biggest thing to look for when you're searching, is to get as many "freebies" as you can! Marine equipment costs a fortune. So, if they have a traveler installed (big plus), roller furling(big plus), extra winches for the genny(big plus), sails condition(very important)..my original sails are still hanging in there, but I decided to get a 150 genny and a furler(a large headsail with a roller furling that wraps up the head sail when not in use) and everything cost about $1500(a little pricey(so if they already have one it's a big plus)). GPS(big plus), depth finder(nice plus)... Another thing to look for is the outboard's condition(very important)....my outboard was the original 1990 Johnson and had trouble starting up(I found out that the impeller (water cooling gear) hadn't been changed in a long time so I changed the impeller, the plugs, and oil in the gear box and she's been running fine since.. There's a lot to look at, but the key is to get one as soon as you can and start enjoying it as much as you can! Good luck! -Sean
..getting 'em installed. They help control dropping the main'sil when single handing. They're a series of lines setup up like a web, so when deployed they form a cradle to help the main'sil fold up nice as you drop it. Bill, I purchased my first boat(sail boat/any boat) last year. I purchased the 1990 MacGregor 26S. It's the classic edition much like the 25 but with a water ballast. I gotta tell ya, it was very easy to get her setup and out on the Bay. I took a two day basic keel boat sailing class to help with procedural stuff(the abc's) and away I went. I guess I had a lot of faith in myself!
Anyways, it was very easy to learn on and I was out most every weekend this past summer and a couple overnighters. The only thing I've been disappointed with has been the headroom down below. With the pop-top down, I believe it's 4'5". With the pop-top up, it really helps(stretching out the back). Now, the extra room is very handy, especially when you want to take others along. I've fit 4 very comfortably in the cockpit and five a little snug...(I'm 245lbs) so 4 comfortably says a lot! I think the biggest thing to look for when you're searching, is to get as many "freebies" as you can! Marine equipment costs a fortune. So, if they have a traveler installed (big plus), roller furling(big plus), extra winches for the genny(big plus), sails condition(very important)..my original sails are still hanging in there, but I decided to get a 150 genny and a furler(a large headsail with a roller furling that wraps up the head sail when not in use) and everything cost about $1500(a little pricey(so if they already have one it's a big plus)). GPS(big plus), depth finder(nice plus)... Another thing to look for is the outboard's condition(very important)....my outboard was the original 1990 Johnson and had trouble starting up(I found out that the impeller (water cooling gear) hadn't been changed in a long time so I changed the impeller, the plugs, and oil in the gear box and she's been running fine since.. There's a lot to look at, but the key is to get one as soon as you can and start enjoying it as much as you can! Good luck! -SeanThanks all
Sean - good points - some are indicated and some questions need to be asked. What does a traveler do. Now I know what lazy jacks are, thanks. I am glad to see that there are some folks here on the bay with Macs. A great source of info for our local waters. Bob, are you around this weekend? Bill
Sean - good points - some are indicated and some questions need to be asked. What does a traveler do. Now I know what lazy jacks are, thanks. I am glad to see that there are some folks here on the bay with Macs. A great source of info for our local waters. Bob, are you around this weekend? Bill
Traverler - Maximize Sail Shape
Sure thing Bill. A traveler helps you maximize the use of your main'sil. It helps you point better into the wind. It's a car setup between a couple blocks on a track that shifts from port to starboard (primarily setup in the cockpit) which your main sheet hooks up to. This allows a better range of motion for your boom, creating a better sail shape. I'm not sure if my explanation helps any. I'm sure someone else can do a much better job! Ever since I added it, it's helped me grab more air and get going a little faster. It's a nice add on, if you can get it for free, it's a nice plus.. -Sean
Sure thing Bill. A traveler helps you maximize the use of your main'sil. It helps you point better into the wind. It's a car setup between a couple blocks on a track that shifts from port to starboard (primarily setup in the cockpit) which your main sheet hooks up to. This allows a better range of motion for your boom, creating a better sail shape. I'm not sure if my explanation helps any. I'm sure someone else can do a much better job!
Ever since I added it, it's helped me grab more air and get going a little faster. It's a nice add on, if you can get it for free, it's a nice plus.. -SeanGood enuf
Noiw I know what they are used for and what they do. Your explanation is good enough for me at this point. It makes sense. Forgive me, I'm learning the terms of the new "throttle". The wind. Thanks, Bill
Noiw I know what they are used for and what they do. Your explanation is good enough for me at this point. It makes sense. Forgive me, I'm learning the terms of the new "throttle". The wind. Thanks, Bill
Gotta lot to learn
You: Ya lost me along the way until you came back to the traveler. The terms escape me at the moment, but that's what winters are for. Thanks for the reply, Bill
You: Ya lost me along the way until you came back to the traveler.
The terms escape me at the moment, but that's what winters are for. Thanks for the reply, BillMe or Bob?
Bill, Were you looking for me or Bob (in Norfolk) for this weekend? If you want to come climb in on or around my 25 I will be home all day on Saturday and after 2p on Sunday. YY, I appreciate the concern over my cell#. I was going to remove it but for some reason can't get signed in. I'm not really concerned as that is the number used by my Son's lawn mowing service and given out on pens to advertise. Can anyone advise how hard it is to install a lazy jack system? That would make dropping the main easier. I still need to install the sail slugs and reef points. I'm just not sure if I want to do that with my current main or wait until I get a new one. This one is starting to show its age. -John
Bill, Were you looking for me or Bob (in Norfolk) for this weekend? If you want to come climb in on or around my 25 I will be home all day on Saturday and after 2p on Sunday. YY, I appreciate the concern over my cell#. I was going to remove it but for some reason can't get signed in. I'm not really concerned as that is the number used by my Son's lawn mowing service and given out on pens to advertise. Can anyone advise how hard it is to install a lazy jack system? That would make dropping the main easier. I still need to install the sail slugs and reef points. I'm just not sure if I want to do that with my current main or wait until I get a new one. This one is starting to show its age. -John
- Status