Sailors, We've all seen this question asked and discussed a hundred times. Me too. However, in my experience, I've never seen anyone ever try to quantify or support their rationale in any meaningful way. Which eventually got me thinking "How would you go about quantifying and supporting your preference?" Here's what I came up with to frame and answer that question. There are at least four major areas to consider (more or less if you want to split hairs, I don't). They are 1) Cost, 2) Performance, 3) Comfort & Safety and 4) Complexity/Simplicity (all explained in the 'Baseline Data & Assumption' list below). BOTTOMLINE: 1. Money $$ is going to be the most important driver in 2/3rds (67%) of the total number of people making the 'size' decision. Which means the majority of the sailors will have to choose less a boat than 42 feet right off the bat. This closely matches the size survey that was recently conducted on this website too. 2. Performance wise (speed), you are only arguing over roughly a ~1 knot difference between the speed of a 30 foot boat compared to the same type 45 foot boat. 3. Comfort & Safety only marginally improves as size increases and is somewhat subjective. 4. Complexity/Simplicity is mainly subjective. So, what is YOUR opinion on the best size cruising boat now? This purely an academic excercise in hope of narrowing this subject down. If you decide to reply, try to support your answer with something tangiable. I like a good arguement but, don't want to argue over semantics. If you are offended somehow? Which happens all the time on these message boards. Know upfront that it wasn't my intent or purpose and I suggest that you, "Don't reply to this message". Regards, James ************************* Baseline Data & Assumptions *********************** 1. Cost & Quality: The mean National Income in the USA last year was about $67,000 per family. Less than ~15% of the nation’s families bring in more than $100K a year. It will cost a minimum of ~$100K to purchase a Used Sailboat >42 feet long that is less than 20 years old, while still being in decent shape. It's assummed that you'll pay more for a higher quality boat at a given length. Which doesn't lower the price below $100K. Maintenance & Slip costs look like they will run ~10% of the purchase price of your boat per year. However, new boats maintenance will be less, older boats more, thus averaging out some where close to that figure. 2. Performance: Sailing Speed (Hull): The best way to make my point about sailing speed is using a sample (market basket) of boats from 30 feet to 44 feet. Catalina ‘30 = 6.7 kt. Jeanneau Sun Ody. ‘34.2 = 7.3 kt. O’day ’37 = 7.4 kt. Hunter ’40 = 7.6 kt. Beneteau 440 = 8.1 kt Auxiliary Engine Speed: Max cruising speed (not full speed) looks to be around 7 knots regardless of the boat size. No surprise given the design parameter for sailboats looks to be around ~3.5 Hp per ton. 3. Comfort & Safety: Motion Comfort: (theoretical value > # is better): Again the best way to make my point about sailing speed is using the same sample above. Catalina ‘30 = 24.73 Jeanneau Sun Ody. ‘34.2 = 21.62 O’day ’37 = 26.76 Hunter ’40 = 24.96 Beneteau 440 = 24.12 Sleeping Berths: At a minimum you can count on getting this number of sleeping berths at these boat lengths. The intent is just to ‘goal post’ the possibilities within the discussion extremes. 26 feet = 4 berths 45 feet = 6 berths Aesthetics: You basically get more room and more potential for additional features as the size of the boat grows. The theory behind this is that you are not going to deliberately make yourself miserable. Safety: Without a doubt a bigger boat will be safer boat than a smaller one of the same type. HOWEVER!, given the fact that we're only talking about a maximum difference in length of 15' (i.e. 30' to 45'), it won't be a significant factor in this discussion unless you are comparing the boats at the two extremes. 4. Size and its correlation to “Complexity vs. Simplicity” (and Vive versa): This is the only area that will become somewhat subjective and more dependent on your own perspective. For example: I could argue that with an Auto pilot, furling headsail and all sheets & lines leading back to the cockpit, I’ve “simplified” things to the point that I can now sail single handed. However, I paid for this simplicity with the help of several “complex” sub-systems and needed additional “space onboard” to install and maintain them. You can make similar arguments with any combination of systems below; however, my intent is to simply identify this area as a potential question in the overall size of the sailboat issue (i.e. bigger boats can hold more of these things too). Typical onboard sailboat systems Generators Auto Pilots SSB Radio VHF Radio Inverters Refrigerators Water Heater Pressurized Water Bilge pumps AC Power Rigging (Line layout, sail furlers & Etc.) Batteries Radar GPS Gauges (compass, speed, wind, & depth) Loran Anchors & Ground tackle
- Status
James, these are boats
You can't look at things this way. You can't do an objective analysis. What happens is one day you'll look at one and say "That's the boat! I just gotta have that boat". Rick I http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/ 393 group
You can't look at things this way. You can't do an objective analysis. What happens is one day you'll look at one and say "That's the boat! I just gotta have that boat". Rick I http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/ 393 group
Money
Probably the size that you can afford to buy now. With the understanding that if you have X amount of money to go cruising that you will spend about 1/3 of that money for the boat(and boat repairs) so that you have money to enjoy the cruise. Heck if you can daysail around the coast of the US and have money to stay in a nice hotel/condo every night that is arguably better than a larger boat that ate all of your money that forces you to work or stay on the hook eating beans and rice. Now: because you don't want to do without for ten years saving for a boat. No matter how grat the cruise it's not worth doing without for a long period of time.
Probably the size that you can afford to buy now. With the understanding that if you have X amount of money to go cruising that you will spend about 1/3 of that money for the boat(and boat repairs) so that you have money to enjoy the cruise. Heck if you can daysail around the coast of the US and have money to stay in a nice hotel/condo every night that is arguably better than a larger boat that ate all of your money that forces you to work or stay on the hook eating beans and rice. Now: because you don't want to do without for ten years saving for a boat. No matter how grat the cruise it's not worth doing without for a long period of time.
The search for the cruising boat that best suits
your needs must start by defining your needs. If you are a family of four then the boat must be able to accommodate four people. That also defines the holding tank size and the fresh water capacity. In each catagory it must come down to need first and then accommodation. Speed is secondary but the ability to carry sail will define the ease with which it will handle the range of conditions that you plan to sail in. You NEED in any boat a rudder, a keel, a mast, and a sail. Almost everything beyond that is a want to have extra.
your needs must start by defining your needs. If you are a family of four then the boat must be able to accommodate four people. That also defines the holding tank size and the fresh water capacity. In each catagory it must come down to need first and then accommodation. Speed is secondary but the ability to carry sail will define the ease with which it will handle the range of conditions that you plan to sail in. You NEED in any boat a rudder, a keel, a mast, and a sail. Almost everything beyond that is a want to have extra.
Love boat logic
I'm with Rick on this one. I put tons of logic into my boat shopping but if you've ever fell in love with a women, there was nothing logical about it. A sail boat is pretty much the same.
I'm with Rick on this one. I put tons of logic into my boat shopping but if you've ever fell in love with a women, there was nothing logical about it. A sail boat is pretty much the same.
Its looks and reputation and then the rest!
I can't help myself, I have to comment. Looks and reputation matter in chosing a spouse and they matter when choosing a boat, You want to be proud of your spouse and you want to be proud of your boat. I know, it is shallow to go for looks alone but put together with reputation of the boat and you know you have a winner. I don't mean to discount your features, but buying a boat is a somewhat emotional experience (and this from an engineer). It is hard to resist a beautiful boat and if it has a good reputation then you investigate the details to assure that it meets your needs. Different folks have different detailed needs so they go for different features and as many have said in the past that is why there are boats of different designs - I can appreciate a J35 and a Gozzard 41 as being beautiful in their own way, however neither are my kind of boat. My wife and I think our boat (a Catalina 36) looks great, it has a great reputation proven over more than 20 years and 2300 or so hulls. The design has continuously evolved taking into account input from owners and new features (such as the sugar scoop stern in the MKII). It has a very good sailing reputation, an excellent Association - http://www.catalina36.org/ and the manufacturer stands behind the boat (I know). The basic design has been proven over 20 years - that means something. Of course the other factors mentioned are important to a greater or lesser extent but the relationship with a boat is not unlike a love affair.... we just have to be a bit careful that we don't get blinded by love...
I can't help myself, I have to comment. Looks and reputation matter in chosing a spouse and they matter when choosing a boat, You want to be proud of your spouse and you want to be proud of your boat. I know, it is shallow to go for looks alone but put together with reputation of the boat and you know you have a winner. I don't mean to discount your features, but buying a boat is a somewhat emotional experience (and this from an engineer). It is hard to resist a beautiful boat and if it has a good reputation then you investigate the details to assure that it meets your needs. Different folks have different detailed needs so they go for different features and as many have said in the past that is why there are boats of different designs - I can appreciate a J35 and a Gozzard 41 as being beautiful in their own way, however neither are my kind of boat. My wife and I think our boat (a Catalina 36) looks great, it has a great reputation proven over more than 20 years and 2300 or so hulls. The design has continuously evolved taking into account input from owners and new features (such as the sugar scoop stern in the MKII). It has a very good sailing reputation, an excellent Association - http://www.catalina36.org/ and the manufacturer stands behind the boat (I know). The basic design has been proven over 20 years - that means something. Of course the other factors mentioned are important to a greater or lesser extent but the relationship with a boat is not unlike a love affair.... we just have to be a bit careful that we don't get blinded by love...
Perfect??
James...not only can't you make a decision on a boat logically..but you basic assumptions are off significantly I think. 1) Cost, 2) Performance, 3) Comfort & Safety and 4) Complexity/Simplicity 1. Income is not wealth. People sell HOUSES to go cruising. If you've owned a house for many years you can afford a nice big boat (or a nice small one!) Yah...bigger boats cost more to berth and repair...but that ain't the deal breaker especially if you cruise and anchor out a lot. 2. The speed index is a crock unless you are looking for a race boat. In a cruising boat...waterline matters a bit as that makes more speed...but most cruisers don't give a damn about speed as long as she is fun to sail. 3. Safety and comfort...if you have been to sea in a Beneteau,Hunter, Catalina etc. and then been to sea in a Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Morris etc. you realize that the comfort index is a crock and that there is a VAST difference between these boats in terms of comfort and safety not some minor quibble. I've owned 2 Catalinas and an Irwin and a Tayana...no contest at sea..not even close. (This is not a slap at any boat...just talking about comfort and safety...not capabililities.) 4. Complexity/Simplicity....relates directly to your own personality. Trying to force a wife to go camping on a boat vs. giving her a place to call home and be comfortable ain't a money issue...it is a marriage issue unless you both like camping. You have to spend what it costs for the level of complexity that makes you both happy. You can cruise longer on less....but you may have to single hand! Of course design and "sex appeal" (exterior and interior) is the other big intangible as others have pointed out. The perfect boat??? One that is suitable, safe and comfortable for your cruising plans and cruising grounds...One you can afford to cruise on...and one that puts a smile on your face when you walk down the dock. Each of my boats was perfect at one time in my life!
James...not only can't you make a decision on a boat logically..but you basic assumptions are off significantly I think. 1) Cost, 2) Performance, 3) Comfort & Safety and 4) Complexity/Simplicity 1. Income is not wealth. People sell HOUSES to go cruising. If you've owned a house for many years you can afford a nice big boat (or a nice small one!) Yah...bigger boats cost more to berth and repair...but that ain't the deal breaker especially if you cruise and anchor out a lot. 2. The speed index is a crock unless you are looking for a race boat. In a cruising boat...waterline matters a bit as that makes more speed...but most cruisers don't give a damn about speed as long as she is fun to sail. 3. Safety and comfort...if you have been to sea in a Beneteau,Hunter, Catalina etc. and then been to sea in a Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Morris etc. you realize that the comfort index is a crock and that there is a VAST difference between these boats in terms of comfort and safety not some minor quibble. I've owned 2 Catalinas and an Irwin and a Tayana...no contest at sea..not even close. (This is not a slap at any boat...just talking about comfort and safety...not capabililities.) 4. Complexity/Simplicity....relates directly to your own personality. Trying to force a wife to go camping on a boat vs. giving her a place to call home and be comfortable ain't a money issue...it is a marriage issue unless you both like camping. You have to spend what it costs for the level of complexity that makes you both happy. You can cruise longer on less....but you may have to single hand! Of course design and "sex appeal" (exterior and interior) is the other big intangible as others have pointed out. The perfect boat??? One that is suitable, safe and comfortable for your cruising plans and cruising grounds...One you can afford to cruise on...and one that puts a smile on your face when you walk down the dock. Each of my boats was perfect at one time in my life!
Not sure why I am chiming in here but
as it has already been said it is nearly impossible to apply the calculus you seem to want to apply to buying a new (used) sailboat. You have obviously thought about the parameters that go into the decision but ultimately the best boat is the one you buy (unless you really hate your current boat, which, if so, you should get rid of it). Having said that, I (and partner) own an old (1967) Tartan 27' which a third (now defunct) partner picked out sight unseen (except for pictures on the web) by the two of us. We love her and she is the best boat for us now. She cost only $4K but as you well know, that is only the price of admission. Older boats have issues. Newer boats have issues. All boats may need upgrades and all will need repairs and maintenance. I love the old Tartan for its lines, thick hull, heavy rigging, more or less full keel with centerboard. These older boats were built like Cadillacs in their day. There are a lot of Tartans (and C&C's for that matter - same mfr. nowadays) around which attest to their pedigree (as maybe with Ericsson's too). I know I am in a different minor league than than the boats you are considering but I would say not to write off a Tartan just yet. How about a Swan 42? Tartan owners website below.
as it has already been said it is nearly impossible to apply the calculus you seem to want to apply to buying a new (used) sailboat. You have obviously thought about the parameters that go into the decision but ultimately the best boat is the one you buy (unless you really hate your current boat, which, if so, you should get rid of it). Having said that, I (and partner) own an old (1967) Tartan 27' which a third (now defunct) partner picked out sight unseen (except for pictures on the web) by the two of us. We love her and she is the best boat for us now. She cost only $4K but as you well know, that is only the price of admission. Older boats have issues. Newer boats have issues. All boats may need upgrades and all will need repairs and maintenance. I love the old Tartan for its lines, thick hull, heavy rigging, more or less full keel with centerboard. These older boats were built like Cadillacs in their day. There are a lot of Tartans (and C&C's for that matter - same mfr. nowadays) around which attest to their pedigree (as maybe with Ericsson's too). I know I am in a different minor league than than the boats you are considering but I would say not to write off a Tartan just yet. How about a Swan 42? Tartan owners website below.
Most people buy too big ...
How's that for an argument starter? Before you get out the napalm please consider these points: Walk the docks, do the small boats get used more often than the large ones? From a visual inspection, how many of the boats are well maintained? How many times have you heard someone question the value of replacing a 10 year old sail? How many times have you read a post moaning about the cost of upgrades and replacements? How many times are owners faced with having to chose between two needed repairs? *box If you have to pause for a moment to consider the cost of something for your boat, you have to know that the same thing on a smaller boat would not be as big an expense. If you cannot afford to keep the boat in seaworthy condition (paying either with time and sweat or with cash), your boat is too big. It may pay off to buy the biggest house you can afford the payment on since it will most likely make a profit for you. The same logic does not apply to boats. You should buy only as big as you can afford to keep in top condition without having to worry about the expense. Sorry, but owners that cannot afford to keep their boats up are a pet peeve of mine. I see many boats that are 20-30 years old. They need new sails, they need new rigging, they need paint or gelcoat repairs, the running rigging is green with whatever gunk grows on Dacron, the lifelines are yellow and cracked ... we have all seen these boats. What was once a sound, safe and happy boat has been reduced to junk because an owner or series of owners either knew no better or could not afford to keep them properly. I would say that you should figure out what you think you can afford, then price out a full set of standing rigging, sails, and running rigging. Find out how much an annual haul out and bottom paint will cost. For a 30 footer: Rigging - 1,000 (10 years) Sails (Main, Genoa, Cruising Spinnaker) - 9,000 (5-10 years) Halyards, Sheets Etc. - 700 (5 years) Slip ($6/ft/month) - 2160 Haul, wash, paint - 500 Pull mast and inspect - 700 (5 years) Insurance? Engine Maintenance? Fuel and batteries? About $300-350 per month? If you don't have that much chump change to toss around, you can't afford a 30 foot boat. The number goes up at about the third power with size. A 45 foot boat won't be 50% more, it won't be 100% more, it will more likely be 200% more. If you buy a $100,000 30 foot boat and finance for 10 years your monthly expense might be $1500. If you by an older 45 foot boat for $100,000 you monthly expense might be $2200. The older boat will probably be even more expensive, since the people that owned it before you stopped loving it before they sold it. Now if you buy a new boat, you have about 5 years before you are faced with starting a replacement schedule. You can sell the boat and get another. The person that buys the boat thinks "It's only 5 years old" and doesn't do all the work that should be done at 5 years ... now the boat is 10 years old and no one has done jack for maintenance ... owner 3 buys the biggest 10 year old boat they think they can afford and proceed to only fix what breaks, because they bought too much boat. If I'm wrong, why do people argue over replacing 15-20 year old rigging, rope, and lifelines? Why do they choke when they find out it's going to cost $200/foot to paint the topsides? I'd much rather have a smaller boat that I can keep "just so" than one that I can't quite keep up. Neglected Mistresses can turn on you at any time, best to keep them happy.
Hows that for a reality check?
How's that for an argument starter? Before you get out the napalm please consider these points: Walk the docks, do the small boats get used more often than the large ones? From a visual inspection, how many of the boats are well maintained? How many times have you heard someone question the value of replacing a 10 year old sail? How many times have you read a post moaning about the cost of upgrades and replacements? How many times are owners faced with having to chose between two needed repairs? *box If you have to pause for a moment to consider the cost of something for your boat, you have to know that the same thing on a smaller boat would not be as big an expense. If you cannot afford to keep the boat in seaworthy condition (paying either with time and sweat or with cash), your boat is too big. It may pay off to buy the biggest house you can afford the payment on since it will most likely make a profit for you. The same logic does not apply to boats. You should buy only as big as you can afford to keep in top condition without having to worry about the expense. Sorry, but owners that cannot afford to keep their boats up are a pet peeve of mine. I see many boats that are 20-30 years old. They need new sails, they need new rigging, they need paint or gelcoat repairs, the running rigging is green with whatever gunk grows on Dacron, the lifelines are yellow and cracked ... we have all seen these boats. What was once a sound, safe and happy boat has been reduced to junk because an owner or series of owners either knew no better or could not afford to keep them properly. I would say that you should figure out what you think you can afford, then price out a full set of standing rigging, sails, and running rigging. Find out how much an annual haul out and bottom paint will cost. For a 30 footer: Rigging - 1,000 (10 years) Sails (Main, Genoa, Cruising Spinnaker) - 9,000 (5-10 years) Halyards, Sheets Etc. - 700 (5 years) Slip ($6/ft/month) - 2160 Haul, wash, paint - 500 Pull mast and inspect - 700 (5 years) Insurance? Engine Maintenance? Fuel and batteries? About $300-350 per month? If you don't have that much chump change to toss around, you can't afford a 30 foot boat. The number goes up at about the third power with size. A 45 foot boat won't be 50% more, it won't be 100% more, it will more likely be 200% more. If you buy a $100,000 30 foot boat and finance for 10 years your monthly expense might be $1500. If you by an older 45 foot boat for $100,000 you monthly expense might be $2200. The older boat will probably be even more expensive, since the people that owned it before you stopped loving it before they sold it. Now if you buy a new boat, you have about 5 years before you are faced with starting a replacement schedule. You can sell the boat and get another. The person that buys the boat thinks "It's only 5 years old" and doesn't do all the work that should be done at 5 years ... now the boat is 10 years old and no one has done jack for maintenance ... owner 3 buys the biggest 10 year old boat they think they can afford and proceed to only fix what breaks, because they bought too much boat. If I'm wrong, why do people argue over replacing 15-20 year old rigging, rope, and lifelines? Why do they choke when they find out it's going to cost $200/foot to paint the topsides? I'd much rather have a smaller boat that I can keep "just so" than one that I can't quite keep up. Neglected Mistresses can turn on you at any time, best to keep them happy.
Hows that for a reality check? 
I'm with Ctskip....If it makes you smile....
My experience in 30+ years of buying and maintaining older boats and cars is a simple truth..the ones I remember were the ones I find myself turning around and looking at as I walk away and smiling...I don't care if it is a 16ft Hoby or a 40 ft Henkley or an older Jaguar automobile or a new Hundi ..if you don't smile when you see it, you won't maintain it or keep it for very long. If it does make you smile, then whatever it costs, you will find a way...boats, especially sailboats, aren't about logic, but about romance and esthetics...otherwise, we would all sail the same boat that was optimized for the best cost/benefit ratio we all agreed on...that we all have different "benefits" we get from whatever "costs" we spend is what makes the world go around, not to mention give us something to talk about on these boards. Me, whatever boat I have at the time is always the "best" boat for me....because it makes me smile... Enough Saturday morning Philosphy..I'm going to the boat..
My experience in 30+ years of buying and maintaining older boats and cars is a simple truth..the ones I remember were the ones I find myself turning around and looking at as I walk away and smiling...I don't care if it is a 16ft Hoby or a 40 ft Henkley or an older Jaguar automobile or a new Hundi ..if you don't smile when you see it, you won't maintain it or keep it for very long. If it does make you smile, then whatever it costs, you will find a way...boats, especially sailboats, aren't about logic, but about romance and esthetics...otherwise, we would all sail the same boat that was optimized for the best cost/benefit ratio we all agreed on...that we all have different "benefits" we get from whatever "costs" we spend is what makes the world go around, not to mention give us something to talk about on these boards. Me, whatever boat I have at the time is always the "best" boat for me....because it makes me smile... Enough Saturday morning Philosphy..I'm going to the boat..
I am with MoodyBucc.., that is exactly why I have
..not moved up. We have a H36 perfect for the two of us cruising for 1 week at a time. Love to have a bigger boat and we can afford it too. But then, you think of the costs involved....sales tax, slip, california property tax..not worth it. And for what? It is not like we are going to live in it nor go cruising for 3 months. Perhaps when we do extended cruising in the future we may get a bigger boat....but right now the H36 fits our needs and I don't bitch about its maintainace. abe
..not moved up. We have a H36 perfect for the two of us cruising for 1 week at a time. Love to have a bigger boat and we can afford it too. But then, you think of the costs involved....sales tax, slip, california property tax..not worth it. And for what? It is not like we are going to live in it nor go cruising for 3 months. Perhaps when we do extended cruising in the future we may get a bigger boat....but right now the H36 fits our needs and I don't bitch about its maintainace. abe
The 'upper limit'
.... should probably be based on the weight/size of the largest sodden/soaked sail that one has to man-handle on a pitching deck in a blow. For a moderate-heavy cruiser that's about 400 sq. ft. of sail area per sail (@ cloth weight at 8-9 oz/sq. yd.). If a sail HAS to come off you dont want to expose yourself to a task that will put you in extreme danger by overloading your 'muscular ability'/strength to remove it. That equation limits you to no more than a 37-40 ft. boat. Selection also depends on the type of cruising intended in that most of the boats listed in this thread dont have much 'stowage' for longterm cruising/passagemaking. In all probability the best advice given is probably: the longest waterline length that one can afford with the limit of sail area that one can adequately manhandle in 'rough' conditions.
.... should probably be based on the weight/size of the largest sodden/soaked sail that one has to man-handle on a pitching deck in a blow. For a moderate-heavy cruiser that's about 400 sq. ft. of sail area per sail (@ cloth weight at 8-9 oz/sq. yd.). If a sail HAS to come off you dont want to expose yourself to a task that will put you in extreme danger by overloading your 'muscular ability'/strength to remove it. That equation limits you to no more than a 37-40 ft. boat. Selection also depends on the type of cruising intended in that most of the boats listed in this thread dont have much 'stowage' for longterm cruising/passagemaking. In all probability the best advice given is probably: the longest waterline length that one can afford with the limit of sail area that one can adequately manhandle in 'rough' conditions.
Comparing boats to Women
It seems that you all are focusing on the romantic start of a relationship. But then there is the end of the relationship also. Buy a crappy boat because it makes you smile. Then the engine etc etc drives you to decide that you want out of this relationship. But no one wants to buy and you get stuckwith a boat that is draining your bank account and worst casre it's unusable so you continue to pay without the joys(kinda like child suport) A boat purchase is best if it's rational. A rational assesment of your needs and abilities. If you need to much and have too little ability you will have an unhappy realtionship with your boat. I've met people that were perfectly happy with a catalina 22 that they kept in perfect condition and used most weekends. But more often I've seen much larger boats with dirty sailcovers hull and deck. These boats sit at the dock unused and slowly turn green. I've seen some with lichens growing on the woodwork. These unused unwanted green boats eventually become almost worthless
It seems that you all are focusing on the romantic start of a relationship. But then there is the end of the relationship also. Buy a crappy boat because it makes you smile. Then the engine etc etc drives you to decide that you want out of this relationship. But no one wants to buy and you get stuckwith a boat that is draining your bank account and worst casre it's unusable so you continue to pay without the joys(kinda like child suport) A boat purchase is best if it's rational. A rational assesment of your needs and abilities. If you need to much and have too little ability you will have an unhappy realtionship with your boat. I've met people that were perfectly happy with a catalina 22 that they kept in perfect condition and used most weekends. But more often I've seen much larger boats with dirty sailcovers hull and deck. These boats sit at the dock unused and slowly turn green. I've seen some with lichens growing on the woodwork. These unused unwanted green boats eventually become almost worthless
Moody ,you are right on
when you talk about maintenance and up keep. Whats important to one person is not always what is important to the other. Some, just buy and sell, because they can and don't wish to do any maintenance. But we have to look at the post that started this thread, "Which size cruising boat is best". I say it's the one that makes you smile the most. You say one that you can afford to maintain. Some (not all) owners maintain their vessels in such a condition as to be deplorable. Yet they are happy. Thats their lot in life. Yet some are anal retentive. Everything must be just perfect and in place. Some look great and run lousy while others look unkempt yet run like a top. It's just a matter of what is important to oneself. Are they here to please others, or to please themselves. As long as they are happy ,thats all that really matters. The perfect size of a cruising boat is the one that you can afford to cruise in whilst maintaining your state of mind. What ever state that may be. You got beer drinkers on one hand and champagne drinkers on the other and everything else in between. It just depends on what your preference is. Whats best for one is not whats best for everyone. Had the original thread starter added "whats the best size cruising boat for you". Then there would be a plethora of responses. All differant. But your point is right on. By the way, my boat always needs something. Just my spin on it. Keep it up, Ctskip
when you talk about maintenance and up keep. Whats important to one person is not always what is important to the other. Some, just buy and sell, because they can and don't wish to do any maintenance. But we have to look at the post that started this thread, "Which size cruising boat is best". I say it's the one that makes you smile the most. You say one that you can afford to maintain. Some (not all) owners maintain their vessels in such a condition as to be deplorable. Yet they are happy. Thats their lot in life. Yet some are anal retentive. Everything must be just perfect and in place. Some look great and run lousy while others look unkempt yet run like a top. It's just a matter of what is important to oneself. Are they here to please others, or to please themselves. As long as they are happy ,thats all that really matters. The perfect size of a cruising boat is the one that you can afford to cruise in whilst maintaining your state of mind. What ever state that may be. You got beer drinkers on one hand and champagne drinkers on the other and everything else in between. It just depends on what your preference is. Whats best for one is not whats best for everyone. Had the original thread starter added "whats the best size cruising boat for you". Then there would be a plethora of responses. All differant. But your point is right on. By the way, my boat always needs something. Just my spin on it. Keep it up, Ctskip
Too much philosophy, not enough numbers.
You might want to check into Allied Ketches on Yachtworld.com 1) COST and AGE: They are right at your perameter limits.....right at 20 years old and right at $100K and at 40 to 42' length. 2) Performance: Im too lazy to look up all the numbers, but I can tell you that they are definately NOT slugs. 3) Comfort and Safety: Again, I'm not going to look up all the numbers, but I can tell you that they are deffinately world cruisers with a great track record. The first fiberglass boat to circumnavigate was a 30' Allied Ketch. Not sure, but I think there were more Allieds to circumnavigate. 4) Complexity/Simplicity: A split rig such as a Ketch gives you so many more options for sailing in all sorts of weather conditions. Generally, when the weather starts to kick up, you drop the main completelely and sail with jib and mizzen. Nothing easier than that when short handed. Much easier to drop the main than to reef. I recently purchased an older allied 39 Ketch and sailed it across the Gulf from Tampa Bay Fl. area to Galveston Bay in Tx. Sails very impressively.
You might want to check into Allied Ketches on Yachtworld.com 1) COST and AGE: They are right at your perameter limits.....right at 20 years old and right at $100K and at 40 to 42' length. 2) Performance: Im too lazy to look up all the numbers, but I can tell you that they are definately NOT slugs. 3) Comfort and Safety: Again, I'm not going to look up all the numbers, but I can tell you that they are deffinately world cruisers with a great track record. The first fiberglass boat to circumnavigate was a 30' Allied Ketch. Not sure, but I think there were more Allieds to circumnavigate. 4) Complexity/Simplicity: A split rig such as a Ketch gives you so many more options for sailing in all sorts of weather conditions. Generally, when the weather starts to kick up, you drop the main completelely and sail with jib and mizzen. Nothing easier than that when short handed. Much easier to drop the main than to reef. I recently purchased an older allied 39 Ketch and sailed it across the Gulf from Tampa Bay Fl. area to Galveston Bay in Tx. Sails very impressively.
Number quantify philosopy
Philopsopy is so important in boating and life. If your philopsopy is to buy the maximum that you can get a loan or minimum that you can enjoy it makes a big difference. With 100K you can buy a smaller newer boat that needs nothing to be ready to go cruiseing. Or you can buy a really big 20 year old boat that will need a lot of stuff. My dream boat is a Pacific Seacraft 37. If I really went for it I could buy one. But it would eat deeply into my financial resources. Unlike our government right now I have a pay as I go philosophy. If I can't buy it I do without. In the old days it wasbeing financially responsible. My son has a GB philosophy of buying as much as he can finance. He drives an expedition I dry an old Tacoma. I pay off my credit cars every month and he keeps his maxed out. He makes more than twice as much money as I do but always wants to borrow from me!!!! It is a big philosophical difference.
Philopsopy is so important in boating and life. If your philopsopy is to buy the maximum that you can get a loan or minimum that you can enjoy it makes a big difference. With 100K you can buy a smaller newer boat that needs nothing to be ready to go cruiseing. Or you can buy a really big 20 year old boat that will need a lot of stuff. My dream boat is a Pacific Seacraft 37. If I really went for it I could buy one. But it would eat deeply into my financial resources. Unlike our government right now I have a pay as I go philosophy. If I can't buy it I do without. In the old days it wasbeing financially responsible. My son has a GB philosophy of buying as much as he can finance. He drives an expedition I dry an old Tacoma. I pay off my credit cars every month and he keeps his maxed out. He makes more than twice as much money as I do but always wants to borrow from me!!!! It is a big philosophical difference.
Whew ...
I thought I'd get flamed for sure. I agree that the boat doesn't have to be "Bristol" to show good maintenance and care. I've also seen boats with greyed teak, faded and chalky gelcoat, and other signs of age that have well tuned rigs, decent well cared for sails, and running rigging that looks sound. Older woman have charm too ... (Think Sophia Loren). As far as size goes, my comfort level is somewhere in the 10,000 - 15,000 pound displacement range. IMO displacement is a good comparison. My C30 is in that range, as is the Pogo 40 that I lust after. In general, bigger boats (heavier) generate higher loads on all their gear, that makes them more work to sail. I lived aboard Befana for 5 years (with 2 dogs) and managed to sail and race her regularly. It was an eye opener to see the difference in cost between the 26 foot boat I had (also lived aboard for a year) and the Catalina. If I had gone to 35 feet instead of 30, I would not have been able to keep the boat up at that time in my life. Now I've had the C30 for 11 years, Befana is getting her long overdue make-over. When she's done, she should look as good as she sails. For a cruising couple, 30 feet should be plenty. RichH makes very valid points. Above 35 feet or so the boats can be quite demanding physically. Modern furling systems allow larger boats to handled by fewer, less able crew ... *if those systems are maintained and used regularly*. Of course the other side of that coin is that those systems make the boat more complex and if not kept up they can become a hazard rather than a help. I'm a conservative guy, I never had roller furling on my boat until Wench insisted on it. As I get the boat ready for a taste of blue water I was going to remove it and go back to hanks. I've talked to enough sailors with blue water experience to change my mind. The furler stays on the boat and I'm adding an inner forestay for a hank on jib and storm sails. As far as speed goes. I think it does make a difference. 25 foot LWL and a 5 knot average compared to a 36 foot LWL and a 6 knot average is a large difference. The larger boat gets to Hawaii 3 days sooner. To get a 7 knot average you need a 49 foot LWL, 8 requires 64 feet LWL. IMO going past 36-40 feet LWL is great expense for small return in speed. Speed buys you more than time, speed gives you options in weather routing. A faster boat should allow you to to avoid more bad weather than a slower one. As far as generators, microwave ovens, central air conditioning, washer and dryer go. They are better suited to larger boats and they represent part of the increased costs of larger vessels. Not practical on the 30-35 footer at sea, I'd say that they become options somewhere above 40 feet and over 25,000# displacement.
I thought I'd get flamed for sure. I agree that the boat doesn't have to be "Bristol" to show good maintenance and care. I've also seen boats with greyed teak, faded and chalky gelcoat, and other signs of age that have well tuned rigs, decent well cared for sails, and running rigging that looks sound. Older woman have charm too ... (Think Sophia Loren). As far as size goes, my comfort level is somewhere in the 10,000 - 15,000 pound displacement range. IMO displacement is a good comparison. My C30 is in that range, as is the Pogo 40 that I lust after. In general, bigger boats (heavier) generate higher loads on all their gear, that makes them more work to sail. I lived aboard Befana for 5 years (with 2 dogs) and managed to sail and race her regularly. It was an eye opener to see the difference in cost between the 26 foot boat I had (also lived aboard for a year) and the Catalina. If I had gone to 35 feet instead of 30, I would not have been able to keep the boat up at that time in my life. Now I've had the C30 for 11 years, Befana is getting her long overdue make-over. When she's done, she should look as good as she sails. For a cruising couple, 30 feet should be plenty. RichH makes very valid points. Above 35 feet or so the boats can be quite demanding physically. Modern furling systems allow larger boats to handled by fewer, less able crew ... *if those systems are maintained and used regularly*. Of course the other side of that coin is that those systems make the boat more complex and if not kept up they can become a hazard rather than a help. I'm a conservative guy, I never had roller furling on my boat until Wench insisted on it. As I get the boat ready for a taste of blue water I was going to remove it and go back to hanks. I've talked to enough sailors with blue water experience to change my mind. The furler stays on the boat and I'm adding an inner forestay for a hank on jib and storm sails. As far as speed goes. I think it does make a difference. 25 foot LWL and a 5 knot average compared to a 36 foot LWL and a 6 knot average is a large difference. The larger boat gets to Hawaii 3 days sooner. To get a 7 knot average you need a 49 foot LWL, 8 requires 64 feet LWL. IMO going past 36-40 feet LWL is great expense for small return in speed. Speed buys you more than time, speed gives you options in weather routing. A faster boat should allow you to to avoid more bad weather than a slower one. As far as generators, microwave ovens, central air conditioning, washer and dryer go. They are better suited to larger boats and they represent part of the increased costs of larger vessels. Not practical on the 30-35 footer at sea, I'd say that they become options somewhere above 40 feet and over 25,000# displacement.
Since I am not...........
Since I am not a man of means, I still work for a living, my first criteria is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Once I have established my absolute max amount of money I will spend ( I have not wavered on that yet) then i will go to yachtworld to get a rough idea of what size boat I can get that is in good condition. Also as part of being in good condition, that means that I can sail and motor it from the minute I own it. Some people enjoy working on boats, I am not one of them. I rather sail than dream of sailing. I have wasted several years of my life working on 2 different boats at 2 different periods in my life. Anyway, cosmetic work doesnt scare me, I just wont buy a fixer upper. Anyway, once i figure out what I could afford, then the 'narrowing down' process begins. The definately 'dont want that manufacturer'' boats are easy to eliminate. After that, its a matter of hunting. And when I hunt, I HUNT. I have never taken more than a week from the time I make up my mind to buy to the day i am an owner. To give you a rough idea, in one week while looking for a Catalina 30, i hit just about every marina between Slidell, La and Ft. Lauderdale Fl. Lots of walking of piers, and lots of driving. When I lost my Cat 30 to Katrina, i kinda 'play' looked at boats, couldnt get serious without my Ins. Co. check. The day I got my check, I made several phone calls to look at boats. I knew I wanted a ketch. I was living in South Tx at the time near Corpus Christi. I called a broker in Tampa Bay area of Florida, he described the boat, I made a tentative offer on the phone. Got up early the next morn and me and GF set out on a 2 day drive to Fl. Looked at the boat, it was exactly as described, said "I Do". and that was that.
Since I am not a man of means, I still work for a living, my first criteria is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Once I have established my absolute max amount of money I will spend ( I have not wavered on that yet) then i will go to yachtworld to get a rough idea of what size boat I can get that is in good condition. Also as part of being in good condition, that means that I can sail and motor it from the minute I own it. Some people enjoy working on boats, I am not one of them. I rather sail than dream of sailing. I have wasted several years of my life working on 2 different boats at 2 different periods in my life. Anyway, cosmetic work doesnt scare me, I just wont buy a fixer upper. Anyway, once i figure out what I could afford, then the 'narrowing down' process begins. The definately 'dont want that manufacturer'' boats are easy to eliminate. After that, its a matter of hunting. And when I hunt, I HUNT. I have never taken more than a week from the time I make up my mind to buy to the day i am an owner. To give you a rough idea, in one week while looking for a Catalina 30, i hit just about every marina between Slidell, La and Ft. Lauderdale Fl. Lots of walking of piers, and lots of driving. When I lost my Cat 30 to Katrina, i kinda 'play' looked at boats, couldnt get serious without my Ins. Co. check. The day I got my check, I made several phone calls to look at boats. I knew I wanted a ketch. I was living in South Tx at the time near Corpus Christi. I called a broker in Tampa Bay area of Florida, he described the boat, I made a tentative offer on the phone. Got up early the next morn and me and GF set out on a 2 day drive to Fl. Looked at the boat, it was exactly as described, said "I Do". and that was that.
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