What knot is best?

[Ross]

A buntline hitch is pretty similar to a truckers hitch (basically a figure 8 with a loop at the end.
If you dont want to use a shackle with an eye splice use a bowline. Its easy to tie and easy to untie. And it wont let go

With a bowline just to be on the safe side, sieze the tail with some small stuff. A friend used a bowline instead of an anchor bend and left an anchor on the bottom in Florida. A bowline is usually secure and rarely jambs so is easily untied. But Buntline hitch was devised to stay secure even with a violently flogging sail.

 

[Joe]

Joe's a bit off in his description... a buntline hitch is really just a clove hitch tied around the standing part of the line.

No... I am exactly right. The clove hitch is not the same for the very reason you mentioned... The buntline hitch ties around its standing part to make a loop... whereas a clove hitch does not... but yes.. the rope does make a similar pattern but the knot cannot be snubbed up.

A better example would be the "four in hand" knot used for men's ties, which is exactly the same as the buntline hitch, except is tied with a different material, and both are designed to be snubbed up. Here is the four in hand knot: http://www.animatedknots.com/tiefou...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

The description I used, by the way, was taken directly from the animated knots page: http://www.animatedknots.com/buntli...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

"Structure It differs from two half hitches in that the second half hitch is inside rather than outside the first one."

The purpose of the comment was to show its relationship to the double half hitch the poster was considering using to attach his halyard to his main.

 

[drh1965]

I like this method... easy on, easy off

 

[Joe]

With a bowline just to be on the safe side, sieze the tail with some small stuff. A friend used a bowline instead of an anchor bend and left an anchor on the bottom in Florida. A bowline is usually secure and rarely jambs so is easily untied. But Buntline hitch was devised to stay secure even with a violently flogging sail.

That is exactly right!!!! Used extensively on square rigged ships. The buntline hitch was named after the control line it secures.

"Clewlines and buntlines are used when taking in a sail. You haul the clewlines to bring the clews up to the ends of the yards, and the buntlines to bring the foot up to the yard. There are two clewlines per sail (one on each clew) and 2-8 buntlines, depending on the size of the sail. The clewlines of the courses are called clew garnets. Often, upper topsails and upper topgallant sails lack clewlines."

 

[Joe]

I like this method... easy on, easy off

Yes, very cool.

 

[sailingdog]

Joe—

If I tie a clove hitch around the standing part of the line, it is a buntline hitch... look at the clove hitch, and look at the buntline hitch section that is tied around the standing part of the line—they're the exact same thing.

Clove hitch

Buntline hitch

Compare the upper right drawing of the clove hitch to the buntline hitch photo... same thing... really... it is...

Just like a bowline is a sheetbend that is tied into the standing part of the line....

Sheet bend:

Bowline:

No... I am exactly right. The clove hitch is not the same for the very reason you mentioned... The buntline hitch ties around its standing part to make a loop... whereas a clove hitch does not... but yes.. the rope does make a similar pattern but the knot cannot be snubbed up.

A better example would be the "four in hand" knot used for men's ties, which is exactly the same as the buntline hitch, except is tied with a different material, and both are designed to be snubbed up. Here is the four in hand knot: http://www.animatedknots.com/tiefou...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

The description I used, by the way, was taken directly from the animated knots page: http://www.animatedknots.com/buntli...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

"Structure It differs from two half hitches in that the second half hitch is inside rather than outside the first one."

But what you wrote in your post is not the same thing... you wrote:

It's similar to the double half hitch, with the second hitch inside the first

Which is exactly the opposite of what animatedknots.com says... It DIFFERS from the double half-hitch because the SECOND half-hitch is inside the first one.

The purpose of the comment was to show its relationship to the double half hitch the poster was considering using to attach his halyard to his main.

 

[Ross]

It could be a buntline hitch or a turn and two half hitches. It depends on where the tail emerges from the knot. A round turn and two half hitches is almost the same as an anchor bend but not quite.

 

[sailingdog]

Sorry Ross, but I'd disagree...

The primary differences between a round-turn-and-two-half-hitches and a buntline hitch are

1) the round turn, which means the line is wrapped 540˚ before tying the first half-hitch, rather than the 180˚ of the buntline hitch;
2) the second half-hitch is INSIDE the first, not outside...

There's no way to turn a buntline into a round-turn-and-two-half-hitches without taking an extra turn around the object you are hitching the line to. The most you could end up with is just two-half-hitches if you mis-tied a buntline hitch.

It could be a buntline hitch or a turn and two half hitches. It depends on where the tail emerges from the knot. A round turn and two half hitches is almost the same as an anchor bend but not quite.

 

[Ross]

Sorry Ross, but I'd disagree...

The primary differences between a round-turn-and-two-half-hitches and a buntline hitch are

1) the round turn, which means the line is wrapped 540˚ before tying the first half-hitch, rather than the 180˚ of the buntline hitch;
2) the second half-hitch is INSIDE the first, not outside...

There's no way to turn a buntline into a round-turn-and-two-half-hitches without taking an extra turn around the object you are hitching the line to. The most you could end up with is just two-half-hitches if you mis-tied a buntline hitch.

Sorry Dog, Ya gotta read it again, I said that a "turn and two half hitches" not a "round turn and two half hitches" concerning a buntline hitch. I said a round turn and two half hitches was almost the same as an anchor bend

 

[sailingdog]

My bad.

Sorry Dog, Ya gotta read it again, I said that a "turn and two half hitches" not a "round turn and two half hitches" concerning a buntline hitch. I said a round turn and two half hitches was almost the same as an anchor bend

 

[Ross]

Anybody know the difference in these knots?

 

[sailingdog]

While appearing superficially similar—the top one is a reef or square knot; the bottom one is often called a thief knot... The square knot has the standing parts of the line next to each other, where the thief knot has them on opposite sides of the knot.

The reason it is called a thief knot is that it is often used to see if something that has been tied up has been tampered with. Most people aren't observant enough to realize that it isn't a square/reef knot and will re-tie the knot incorrectly after untying it to get at whatever is tied up.

Anybody know the difference in these knots?

 

[RichBone]

The bottom knot- #1207, page 221 in The Ashley Book of Knots- is the Thief or Bag Knot:
"It appears very like the Reef Knot, but there is one and scarcely evident difference. It does not consist of two Half Knots. There is a legend that sailors tie clothes bags, and bread bags with this knot and that thieves always retie them with Reef Knots and so are inevitably detected."

Rich

 

[Ross]

I hope nobody argues with that explaination.

 

[Joe]

Visualizing the buntline hitch

So I should have said it is similar to a double half hitch EXCEPT the second hitch is inside the first. That's cool. Sorry for the confusing syntax.

Sailingdog... I know what a clove hitch is, as do others on this forum, so your repetitive graphics are unnecessary to prove a moot point. My point is the buntline hitch is much more similar in function and character to a double half hitch, a round turn and two half hitches or a fisherman's bend, than it is to a clove hitch.

Here's GROG's comment from his "animated knots" website on the clove hitch.

"Uses: The Clove Hitch is included here primarily to condemn it. Its only advantage is being pleasingly easy to tie. It does have two major failings: it slips and, paradoxically, can also bind. For this reason there is no reason to use in boating. There is, however, one excellent use for it in the Theatre where it used for easily adjusting the height of curtains."

So... forget the clove hitch...here's a better way to visualize a buntline hitch: heh, heh.

 

[sailingdog]

You're missing my point... a buntline hitch IS a clove hitch tied to the standing part of the line... it doesn't matter much that a clove hitch itself isn't all that useful a knot, since by tying it to the standing part of the line and then snugging it up, you eliminate one of the biggest failings of the clove hitch—its tendency to slip. The buntline hitch does express the other biggest failing of the clove hitch—it binds almost every time it is used under a high load.

When you tie a knot around the standing part of the line, its function and flaws often change, because it isn't being used in the same way as it was previously.

So I should have said it is similar to a double half hitch EXCEPT the second hitch is inside the first. That's cool. Sorry for the confusing syntax.

Sailingdog... I know what a clove hitch is, as do others on this forum, so your repetitive graphics are unnecessary to prove a moot point. My point is the buntline hitch is much more similar in function and character to a double half hitch, a round turn and two half hitches or a fisherman's bend, than it is to a clove hitch.

Here's GROG's comment from his "animated knots" website on the clove hitch.

"Uses: The Clove Hitch is included here primarily to condemn it. Its only advantage is being pleasingly easy to tie. It does have two major failings: it slips and, paradoxically, can also bind. For this reason there is no reason to use in boating. There is, however, one excellent use for it in the Theatre where it used for easily adjusting the height of curtains."

So... forget the clove hitch...here's a better way to visualize a buntline hitch: heh, heh.

 

[Ross]

I find a clove hitch to be very useful when staking out an area to be defined. Mason's twine and square stakes hold the clove hitch very well. Don't use it to tie a dog to a post, he can just walk it free. A rolling hitch is an enhanced clove hitch but I still finish it with a half hitch around the standing part. There are many knots that appear similar ut have subtle differences that either improve them or ruin them for a purpose. A clove hitch on a tent peg is a good choice if the tail is tied to the standing part with a rolling hitch. However by itself it may slip.

 

[tyson_troy]

I also found this knot, as well. I would be very interested to see how it works.

Thanks for all of the replies.