Don, *cry since new, I have not been able to trim this genoa 150% to make it parallel to the stay without hitting the upper spreader and stay. The sail maker tells me that the sail is perfect but that the spreader is too large and suggests that I cut them!*yks!. I hope you can see from the picture that the sail is already touching the stay on the bottom and the top but it is still quite far from the lower spreader. I have no problem with the sail for reaching but I don's seem to be able to point well with it. The sail has a radial cut, is there anything that can be done to fix it?*! Thanks
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Few things
What boat is it? Hard to tell the shape of the sail with out draft stripes the other thought is it looks like the sheet car is to far forward. Moving it back alittle will change the shape of the sail and flatten the lower portion of the sail. If you had the draft stripes we could see the shape of the sail from top to bottom. Also with the chainplates where they are some boats just can't point as high as other with them more inboard. Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
What boat is it? Hard to tell the shape of the sail with out draft stripes the other thought is it looks like the sheet car is to far forward. Moving it back alittle will change the shape of the sail and flatten the lower portion of the sail. If you had the draft stripes we could see the shape of the sail from top to bottom. Also with the chainplates where they are some boats just can't point as high as other with them more inboard. Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
Moving the lead back does not do it
Thank you guys, My understanding is that for highest upwind performance at appropriate winds for a large genoa (150% in my case), the sail should be pretty much parallel to the stay up to the lower spreader. In my boat, when I trim it at that condition, the sail touches the shroud near deck but leaves quite a distance to the upper, as you can see from the picture. I can move the lead forward and trim the sail so that it is parallel to the shroud, but then the top of the sail will be wrinkled as it smashes against the upper spreader and the shroud above it. There is no way to set the sail so that it almost touches the lower spreader’s tip and the shroud at the bottom without closing the slot between the second spreader and the top of the sail. Moving the lead back opens the distance between the sail and the lower spreader even more but it does not open the slot on top. In other words, as I move back the lead and trim the sail, it opens the center but the top of the slot remains closed. As a result, I can’t set the twist on the genoa that I set on the main sail and I end up closing the slot between both on the top. My understanding was that as wind increased, one should open up the slot on the top to accompany the twist on the main, and that should be possible to do without loosing pointing angle by moving the lead back. Having said that, it may be possible that given the cruising nature of my boat (Beneteau 361), it may be better to sail footing off instead of trying to go as high as the trimmed genoa would let me. As I said before, the boat is pretty fast reaching. The sail has been like this since new, and I could still get the sail maker to fix it if there is a problem with it. The question is should I have them cut some leach out??. I WILL NOT CUT MY SPREADER FOR SURE.
Thank you guys, My understanding is that for highest upwind performance at appropriate winds for a large genoa (150% in my case), the sail should be pretty much parallel to the stay up to the lower spreader. In my boat, when I trim it at that condition, the sail touches the shroud near deck but leaves quite a distance to the upper, as you can see from the picture. I can move the lead forward and trim the sail so that it is parallel to the shroud, but then the top of the sail will be wrinkled as it smashes against the upper spreader and the shroud above it. There is no way to set the sail so that it almost touches the lower spreader’s tip and the shroud at the bottom without closing the slot between the second spreader and the top of the sail. Moving the lead back opens the distance between the sail and the lower spreader even more but it does not open the slot on top. In other words, as I move back the lead and trim the sail, it opens the center but the top of the slot remains closed. As a result, I can’t set the twist on the genoa that I set on the main sail and I end up closing the slot between both on the top. My understanding was that as wind increased, one should open up the slot on the top to accompany the twist on the main, and that should be possible to do without loosing pointing angle by moving the lead back. Having said that, it may be possible that given the cruising nature of my boat (Beneteau 361), it may be better to sail footing off instead of trying to go as high as the trimmed genoa would let me. As I said before, the boat is pretty fast reaching. The sail has been like this since new, and I could still get the sail maker to fix it if there is a problem with it. The question is should I have them cut some leach out??. I WILL NOT CUT MY SPREADER FOR SURE.
Release the foot and tighten the leech
IMHO, the foot is stretched too much and the leech is too slack. The tight leech cord kind of hides this by preventing the sail from twisting off in the light air condition depicted here. If the winds were stronger you would see the upper third of the leech starting to twist off and the whole sail coming into its own at the settings shown here. For these light wind conditions, however, the jib car should be moved forward so you can make the jib more efficient by releasing the foot and tightening the leech (not just the leech cord). In case the clew does not want to be pulled down much further without touching the deck the sailmaker could shorten the leech a bit (in effect producing more of a yankee cut). However, since this involves major surgery he is not going to like this idea and will probably suggest that you lengthen the mast instead
(. Success! Flying Dutchman
IMHO, the foot is stretched too much and the leech is too slack. The tight leech cord kind of hides this by preventing the sail from twisting off in the light air condition depicted here. If the winds were stronger you would see the upper third of the leech starting to twist off and the whole sail coming into its own at the settings shown here. For these light wind conditions, however, the jib car should be moved forward so you can make the jib more efficient by releasing the foot and tightening the leech (not just the leech cord). In case the clew does not want to be pulled down much further without touching the deck the sailmaker could shorten the leech a bit (in effect producing more of a yankee cut). However, since this involves major surgery he is not going to like this idea and will probably suggest that you lengthen the mast instead
(. Success! Flying DutchmanI am confused guys
Cliff suggests moving the lead back but Henk suggests the opposite??? I agree with Henk that the foot is too tight. I did it exactly to show that even in that condition I could not open the slot on the top. If I move the lead forward and the slot closes even more. May be the mast needs to be moved forward $?+@##%@^&*
Cliff suggests moving the lead back but Henk suggests the opposite??? I agree with Henk that the foot is too tight. I did it exactly to show that even in that condition I could not open the slot on the top. If I move the lead forward and the slot closes even more. May be the mast needs to be moved forward $?+@##%@^&*
I was wrong
Looking at it again I can now see the foot is real tight. For some reason it just does not look right. I would again get the sail maker on the boat. What kind of boat is it?? Cliff
Looking at it again I can now see the foot is real tight. For some reason it just does not look right. I would again get the sail maker on the boat. What kind of boat is it?? Cliff
The WIND needs to open up the slot !
In light air, the slot of a full masthead rig will inevitably close up towards the top of the mast. Remember, however, that you don't want the top of a genoa to twist off in light air. Instead, you just want the horizontal curvatures of the genoa and main to keep matching up over as large a distance as possible. The fact that the leechline appears to be a bit tight (as also noted by a poster on the parallel thread who called the sail "cupped") does not help, however. The best approach is to first release the leech line totally, then trim the main sail controls until you like the overall shape and angle of attack and finally tighten the leech line just far enough to reduce noisy & potentially damaging chatter. Then, as the wind becomes stronger you move the jib lead aft to let the top of the genoa twist off. Besides reducing heel and keeping the boat better on its feet (as the top of the jib produces relatively little drive but disproportionally large heeling forces), there should be no real slot left up high once you have put a first reef into the main. I should also point out that many of these little problems disappear if you happen to have a fractional rig instead of a masthead one. Finally, two questions: (a) does she sail well in light air? (if so, who cares about the shape of the slot towards the top of the mast); and (2)if this a 150% genoa; was your rig really designed for that? Success, Flying Dutchman
In light air, the slot of a full masthead rig will inevitably close up towards the top of the mast. Remember, however, that you don't want the top of a genoa to twist off in light air. Instead, you just want the horizontal curvatures of the genoa and main to keep matching up over as large a distance as possible. The fact that the leechline appears to be a bit tight (as also noted by a poster on the parallel thread who called the sail "cupped") does not help, however. The best approach is to first release the leech line totally, then trim the main sail controls until you like the overall shape and angle of attack and finally tighten the leech line just far enough to reduce noisy & potentially damaging chatter. Then, as the wind becomes stronger you move the jib lead aft to let the top of the genoa twist off. Besides reducing heel and keeping the boat better on its feet (as the top of the jib produces relatively little drive but disproportionally large heeling forces), there should be no real slot left up high once you have put a first reef into the main. I should also point out that many of these little problems disappear if you happen to have a fractional rig instead of a masthead one. Finally, two questions: (a) does she sail well in light air? (if so, who cares about the shape of the slot towards the top of the mast); and (2)if this a 150% genoa; was your rig really designed for that? Success, Flying Dutchman
Good points
Henk, the wind was not that low (~10 knots). I hope you are not suggesting making the rig into a fractional one. As for your questions: a) I have never been able to sail closer than 50 degrees to the real wind direction with low or higher winds. b) This may be the problem. I am not sure that the rig can handle that size sail. The american version of my boat comes with a 140%. Mine came with a 135% and I had the 150% made for the Marion-Bermuda race. In that race the wind was never closer than a beam reach and she did quite well. I ma not sure the story would have been the same if we had to beat.
Henk, the wind was not that low (~10 knots). I hope you are not suggesting making the rig into a fractional one
. As for your questions: a) I have never been able to sail closer than 50 degrees to the real wind direction with low or higher winds. b) This may be the problem. I am not sure that the rig can handle that size sail. The american version of my boat comes with a 140%. Mine came with a 135% and I had the 150% made for the Marion-Bermuda race. In that race the wind was never closer than a beam reach and she did quite well. I ma not sure the story would have been the same if we had to beat.
If sailing closer to the wind is your biggest wish
Having a very large genoa is usually not the best way to achieve that, IMHO Instead, you may want to concentrate on the following points: (1) get as well-shaped and large a main as you can afford (preferably full-battened, large roach, loose footed), (2) use a small flat genoa or large staysail that can be trimmed far enough inboard, if needed, (3) get as much weight out of the boat and make sure the underwater hull and appendages are spotless; and (4) try to get rid of excessive weather or lee helm that forces you to drag the rudder blade at too large an angle. Good luck Flying Dutchman
Having a very large genoa is usually not the best way to achieve that, IMHO Instead, you may want to concentrate on the following points: (1) get as well-shaped and large a main as you can afford (preferably full-battened, large roach, loose footed), (2) use a small flat genoa or large staysail that can be trimmed far enough inboard, if needed, (3) get as much weight out of the boat and make sure the underwater hull and appendages are spotless; and (4) try to get rid of excessive weather or lee helm that forces you to drag the rudder blade at too large an angle. Good luck Flying Dutchman
Henk, do you mean that..
Should I forget about trying to get this sail re-cut or corrected? Although sailing closer to the wind is not my biggest wish, I would like to know if the sail that I paid dearly for is or is not adequate for my boat. If I had the means, I would love to buy a new main and, even better change my boat for a Farr. But that is not possible, at least not yet. Thanks for all your suggestions though Thanks for all your suggestions thuough.
Should I forget about trying to get this sail re-cut or corrected? Although sailing closer to the wind is not my biggest wish, I would like to know if the sail that I paid dearly for is or is not adequate for my boat. If I had the means, I would love to buy a new main and, even better change my boat for a Farr. But that is not possible, at least not yet. Thanks for all your suggestions though Thanks for all your suggestions thuough.
Sorry, Jose, I did get carried away a bit...
Here are two possible AND perhaps practical solutions: (1) try to have your sailmaker re-cut the sail to a genoa with a hollow leach, thus leaving clew and head (i.e. the hardest to modify areas) pretty much untouched while creating a bit more distance to the upper spreaders; and/or (2) try to have your sailmaker add an aeroluff (or equivalent) strip to the luff of your genoa so you can furl back to a smaller genoa while beating into light to moderate winds and seas without loosing a whole lot of sail shape. Good luck! Flying Dutchman
Here are two possible AND perhaps practical solutions: (1) try to have your sailmaker re-cut the sail to a genoa with a hollow leach, thus leaving clew and head (i.e. the hardest to modify areas) pretty much untouched while creating a bit more distance to the upper spreaders; and/or (2) try to have your sailmaker add an aeroluff (or equivalent) strip to the luff of your genoa so you can furl back to a smaller genoa while beating into light to moderate winds and seas without loosing a whole lot of sail shape. Good luck! Flying Dutchman
No hard feelings Henk
The sail has an aeroluff and I do furl it a little while going upwind. In spite of what the sail maker said about the spreaders it may be best to leave it like it is. After all, I can't complaint about its reaching performance that helped me get a 2nd in class during the Marion-Bermuda race this year.
The sail has an aeroluff and I do furl it a little while going upwind. In spite of what the sail maker said about the spreaders it may be best to leave it like it is. After all, I can't complaint about its reaching performance that helped me get a 2nd in class during the Marion-Bermuda race this year.
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Your head sail needs
a bit more attention. First off the leach is cupped - badly. That is a major problem in a point. If you have a UV strip on the port side of the sail it most probably is the reason for the cup. The only way to get rid of this type of cup is to remove the UV strip or have it re-applied. If you have no UV strip on the leach than the sail has a poor cut. A leach line will stop the leach flutter and flapping, it should not put in as much cup as shown in your photo. You will never point high enough with the amount of luff tension shown in your photo. If you want to point put in a lot of luff tension and get rid of the wrinkles shown in your photo. Use either more halyard tension or a down haul on the luff of the headsail. There is a time for luff wrinkles - but not on a point. RD
a bit more attention. First off the leach is cupped - badly. That is a major problem in a point. If you have a UV strip on the port side of the sail it most probably is the reason for the cup. The only way to get rid of this type of cup is to remove the UV strip or have it re-applied. If you have no UV strip on the leach than the sail has a poor cut. A leach line will stop the leach flutter and flapping, it should not put in as much cup as shown in your photo. You will never point high enough with the amount of luff tension shown in your photo. If you want to point put in a lot of luff tension and get rid of the wrinkles shown in your photo. Use either more halyard tension or a down haul on the luff of the headsail. There is a time for luff wrinkles - but not on a point. RD
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