what is small?

[BarryL]

boat sizes

Hello,I don't know why everyone is so offended. If the girls friends are used to 40' boats,and she answered honestly, what is wrong with that?I believe that a 23' sail boat is a small boat.Nothing wrong with that, but to most people,a 23' boat is small.IMHO, anything under 25 is small, 25 - 35 is mediumand over 35 is big. Then there would giant, huge,and OH MY GOD!Barry

 

[Banooma]

relative to what?

I'm enjoying all the thoughtful and stimulating responses this has gotten. I'm guessing there are more sailboats in the world less than 20 feet than sailboats greater than 25 feet. Is the middle of the lot the best place to judge - What's the median length? Maybe we should instead evaluate from the mode - if more people sail Sunfish than any other boat, maybe anything bigger than that is where "big" starts?Other ways of thinking and measuring - What size of boat gets the most use actually sailing? Do the gorgeous 36' sailboats that rarely leave their slip even count?Do boats on sitting trailers that have become too much of a hassle for a few hours' sail count?If I towed around a 23 with a fixed keel, and had to step up and down the mast every weekend, nobody in the world could convince me it's small.

 

[newly anonymous]

count the spreaders!

Overheard, recently, at the San Diego Yacht Club: "I'd never date a man whose rig didn't have at least three spreaders."

 

[Jim]

Do the gorgeous 36' sailboats that rarely leave their slip even count

mine gone out every weekend.

 

[Banooma]

counting

np Jim, yours will be counted ;-)

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Fragile Ego's

Are we equating boat size to d**k size?I had small boats. I had Mac 25. Then I actually lived aboard a Catalina 25 for 2 years. I KNEW THEY WERE SMALL by industry standards. I didn't deny it. My ego was not hurt. I did not have to sit here and justify why a large 20 footer was better than a mega-yacht of 30'. There is nothing wrong with a small boat. Your friends frame of reference "Her entire sailing experience is 2 years as rail meat crew on deeper water racing boats" tells me that she was used to larger boats. So what is wrong with what she said. She agrees With Catalina Yachts and Hunter Marine and all of the other boat manufacturers. Then your statements go on to justify by showing your experience. Then later on you go on to say "but I'm thinking someone whose sailing experience is a notch above being a passenger and never sailed a boat herself really doesn't have a qualified opinion." I think someone that was "rail meat" for 2 years on deep water racing boats is definately qualified to make a statement about size. Maybe not the snobery you show by your great sailing experience, but definately qualified to make statement about size.Small is small whether you like it or not. Catalina up to 27'= Sport Boat (Small), 28-37= Cruiser (Mid-size), 38 and above = Ocean (large).Hunter Marine: 14'-21'=day sailer, 25-27'= Pocket Cruiser (Small), 31'-38'=Mid-size, 41'-49'=Large.Even Industry has steered away from the word "small". Nobody would ever own a 'small' boat. This Thread is proof of it. Nauti cruises his 25 footer. I cruised both of my 25 footers. THEY WERE SMALL. They got me several hundreds of miles from home. Then I upgraded to a Catalina 30 since I was living aboard, I needed the space. This was a great improvement. It is a MID-SIZE boat. It was very large to me, but by standards, it barely made it into the Mid -size category.  If I have to explain why the world uses conventional terms and phrases, then you are really lost. I enjoyed my Mac 25 and Cat 25 every bit as much as my Cat 30 and my current boat. I was never ashamed or embarrassed about my boats. I never needed others to stroke me and help justify why small is better without using the word 'small".Someone here even called your friend "ignorant" for referring to your 23' boat as small. So, who are the snobs here?Tony B

 

[Bad Obsession]

I have noticed a trend on the Chesapeake Bay

I don't see people cruising boats under 30 feet as much as I use to. I guess a lot of people have gotten older and more financially stable. They sold their smaller boats to daysailors and bought bigger boats.I use to cruise a Hunter 22. At the time I knew that it was considered a smaller boat but it was still bigger to the sunfish, force 5, and the o'day 17 I use to have.Now I am cruising a Catalina 30. When I am on the Bay I rarely see people in smaller boats when I go into the ancorage, unless it is a Holiday weekend. It is funny how that goes.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Bad Obsession

Great choice on the Catalina 30. It was the most fun boat I ever had. It sailed great. It was totalled out in Hurricane Katrina. Still floating though. Wish I knew who the new owner is. I would be of great help to him/her.Tony B

 

[Banooma]

lighten up!

Tony, let's try to keep this discussion civil. I find the relative boat size conversation interesting from a sociological perspective, and I'm essentially trying to survey opinions here. I'm proud of my choices, experiences, and expenditures, and perfectly content within myself. I would just simply never tell someone their boat was too small for my class of friends. There are reasons for all boat sizes, and the fact that more people have daysailers than big boats is because they are in higher demand (In 2006, 8380 sailboats 12-19' feet were produced in the US vs. 712 in the 30-35' range, according to Sailing World). I'm surprised by your reference to "industry standards." My initial question was "what's small to you?" - and not "what does the industry's marketing material tell you small is?" I have a somewhat cynical view that they've created the market, and I think they probably make higher profit with bigger boats. They want to increase profits. Consequently, I think they want people to have boat envy, and to believe smaller isn't as good as bigger. I think boat manufacturers that market small/medium/large sizes (whatever they call them) are somewhat biasing the discussion here, and do not belong in the argument. So is an individual whose only point of reference is a 40 foot Bennetau. I don't have a problem with people having opinions and expressing them, but your response seems particularly pointed and angry. Chill out - we're all sailing brethren here. I'm not sorry I have a different viewpoint than you or anyone else, but I won't stoop to talking about who is compensating what by sailing a bigger boat.

 

[NautiDuck]

Oops again

"Ducky, unless you and your wife are 5 feet tall a 250 is too small."Darn. I better let the Admiral know that we have the wrong boat and shouldn't be so darned happy! Folks, we all have different needs. Sure I can afford a 30 or 35 footer but then I'd be stuck sailing in our lake. No way! We want to explore other areas like the San Juans, Sea of Cortez, Florida, etc. I'll take the trailerable, thank you.Now, here is what I call a sweet ride:http://www.seawardyachts.com/32rk.html

 

[Capt. Kermie]

Nothing is really Small!

I believe boats are sized to their intended purpose and venue. I wouldn't call a Hobie 18 small, I would call it fast and wet. I wouldn't call a pocket cruiser small, I would call it versatile. I wouldn't call a Hunter 49 big, I'd call it more work & expense.In some places especially where I am PNW we are governed by seasons and one is lucky to have 6 months to enjoy. I cannot justify a boat that requires annual moorage in such a short sailing season, you pay for 12 months but only sail 4-6 months. Why put all your fiancial eggs into one basket (big boat)? There are other things to spend your discretionary income on, especially off season. I am currently in the process of prepping my boat (MacGregor 26M) for first splash this season and being the fanatic I am about clean & waxed it seems humongous and requires many many hours of work. I can't and don't even want to imagine how much work a bigger boat is. My pocket cruiser gets me all over the San Juans & Gulf islands, from the south end of Puget Sound to the northern end of Vancouver Island. I slip for 4-6 months then tow it back to my driveway for winter. I will retire within the next year or so and this is as big/much as I want to single hand and maintain. Currently my wife sails with me all the time and we find this is the perfect size. We do get out a lot during season but we also make a lot of marina stops to get our creature comforts. If the boat fits the venue then it is niether small nor big but just right.

 

[GuyT]

I think we could agree..

If it can be trailer towed by a Volkswagen, it is "Small".

 

[bffatcat]

Reply to Tony

Listen Guy. the size the current builders are concentrating on today is 32' +This has nothing to do with what some consider small, others consider med,and still others consider big. The boat co`s have figured out they can double the price by going up a couple of feet. They just cant get enough bucks and make enough margin to build a boat under 30 ft. Thats why today there are maybe3 or 4 builders with new boats under 30 ft when there used to be 30 or 40.If you dont believe me go do some research. Unless you want a catalina or hunterthere is not much to choose from.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Capt Kermie

My dream boat for the not too distant future, like in about 7 or 8 years is a new Mac 26. Is the 26M the newest model? I havent followed Macs in a while but I know ole Roger MacG never stops improving. The 26 is the perfect ticket for me. I want to be able to go anywhere by river or by trailering. How are they in choppy stuff and also how well do they sail? I was on a 26X (i think) about a 1998 I think. It performed well in the Gulf of Mex for coastal cruising and we could get back to shelter pretty quickly. I was wondering if you have taken long trips in yours and I guess I'll have to just peek inside a new one some day and see if living aboard and traveling is feasable. I think an RV and a Mac would be the perfect retirement set-up.Tony B

 

[Ross]

I think that the boating market is driven by the same

forces as the housing market.In the 1950's the average new home was a 3 bedroom, one bath, living room and kitchen rancher. Today it is 4 bedrooms, 3 full baths and 2 or 3 half baths, kitchen, dining room, living room, family room and deck.Have families gotten bigger ? nope! They have just accepted the idea that you have to have all of this room. Some homes have more TV sets than books. And most devote more space to electronic entertainment than they do to book shelves. There are more closets filled with clothes than a family can wear in a year but they still buy new. How much boat do we need for being able to safely go sailing? Probably something over about 20 feet. How much do we need to safely cross an ocean something over about 20 feet that is designed for that use. There are several 20 something pontoon boats in our marina and the people that use them have a wonderful time and go home to sleep. So maybe the question should be, "What is big enough?" Rather than what defines big.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

In a highly competitive market....

such as boatbuilding, I dont think the manufacturers are controlling it. I think the buyers are controlling the market. If no one wanted the larger boats, then no one would be selling them and therefore no one would be making them. The manufacturers probably do make more $$ on a larger boat, but If the smaller ones were in demand, thats what they would make. Ask Roger MacGregor who pounds out a new boat every 2 hours. Yes ..Hours. If they couldnt make it profitably, they would go out of business, which apparently many have. The boating industry, like most other American industries are going overseas because of labor ethics, labor rates, manufacturing processes, lawyers and lawsuits and a host of other reasons. Im trying to keep this non-political. THis is definately a buyers market. Compete or die.When it comes to size, yes there are standards. Most of the standards are what most are expecting to see. We can all come up with a definition of a yacht and even back it up with a dictionary. However, under no conditions would I consider my boat a yacht. I would be totally embarrassed when strangers came to see my 'yacht' because it is not what most pre-conceptions of a yacht are, even though it meets the dictionary definition. My biggest problem on this thread is the snobery of small boat owners feeling high and mighty and so superior about about all of their experience and learning curves. This is very offensive. A woman was called an idiot and and ignorant and some of you even appologized for her because she said the boat was small. If some of you dont think you are snobs, re-read your posts.Tony B

 

[scolil]

Recalling a thread titled "size does matter"

I thoroughly enjoyed hearing about the adventures in a sunfish as I recall. My "super" snark obviously isn't small, even if the hull is only 50 lbs. Responding to another post in this thread, can I call my venture 24 small if three of us cannot figure out how to sail it between us?Ducky, I've been looking at the Seawards for a while too. My family needs put me along the same line of thinking you mentioned.Fun thread Banooma!

 

[Banooma]

snobbery

*insert dramatic music here* I've learned something today. I think people find different satisfaction from different parts of their different sailing experiences. I don't think it's snobbery to believe in the boat that is perfect for us, and allowing each of us to have our own definition of small-for-me or big-for-me -- whether it's about cabin space, creature comforts, or speed. I think those of us who have sailed for awhile have probably encountered many others who are simply ecstatic about having a boat to sail and the skills to sail it, no matter what the size or furnishings. It's about the feeling of our hulls dancing across the waves under nothing but our guidance and wind power, and feeling like you're on top of the world. Sailing isn't about how closely our interior resembles that from a Sail magazine photo shoot, or how many people we can impress or one-up. I don't know about anyone else, but each step "up" to me has presented its share of challenges and anxiety. Getting over that hump - learning new waters, finding someone to help you pull the sunfish out to the water, trying to move around onboard, learning the lines, how to operate a hidden centerboard and know it's all the way down, sailing in bigger vessels, learning how to use a ramp, learning how to dock, fighting traffic patterns, accurately assessing your boat length and speed while docking, learning about inboard diesel motors, stuffing boxes, and rudder quadrants, dutchman flaking systems, anticipating prop walk... might be a minor accomplishments after awhile, but each bigger boat brings with it new milestones and new adventures. I'll continue to be a little defensive about someone whose never encountered any of these things declaring what is "small" when she's never steered or docked a boat, and doesn't know the first thing about maintenance. I'll also continue to be a little cynical that some sailboat "two-foot-itis" is an offshoot of a culture that continues to find a "need" to live in McMansions and drive Hummers... But, I think the bottom line is what we all share by going out on the water in the first place.

 

[CharlieCobra]

My first boat was small

I still have my little V-21 sitting in the driveway. While some think it's a POS, I just smile as I sail away from them in a breeze and it taught me how to sail by the cloth since it has no instruments at all. The big boat was quite a step up in complexity but it responds much the same as the little boat, just slower in reaction to weather or inputs. I have no bias towards size and would probably have an even bigger boat if I could afford and justify it. Just enjoy what ya have and get on with the business of sailing already.

 

[Jim Kolstoe]

The importance of size

is whether the boat fits you and the type and location of sailing you do. Banooma could have legitimatly asked her friend how her boat compared to the Cutty Sark, the Eagle or the Consitution, each of which were appropriate to what they were used for, and most likely very wrong for what Banooma or freind uses their boats for. Certainly boats come in different sizes. So do shoes. That does not make one better overall than the other. Your 23 would fit in well and provide a lot of fun where I sail (same lake as NautiDuck), or crusing the San Juans, or in some of the lakes in the Cascades, but would probably not be suitable for going far offshore in the Pacific. Conversely, her friend's boat would be difficult to impossible launch in most inland waters, and is probably, as a previous post noted, limited to coastal and great lakes sailing. If Banooma felt put out by her friend's comment, perhaps she should have invited her and her friends to discover the fun to be had on a 23ft boat.Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo.