What is " BLUE WATER"

[abe]

I have H36 and agree...these light wt boats...

are a cork in the water in heavy seas. With heavy displacement boats they cut through the water instead of corking around. You can't change the laws of physics....Think of a heavy displacement boat as floating piece of concrete, its going to take alot to move it up and down...it will cut through the swells with less up and down movement. Light displacement boats floats throught the swells and thus its like a cork. It is not a diragatory term nor a term to say its "cheap"...they just move differently. I notice a big difference when I am in heavy boat vs my boat. That said, I would not buy a heavy boat for local cruising...it takes alot more wind to get them going.abe

 

[Maine Sail]

I know

I know Catalina has made numerous improvements to the C-36 and always listens to the customer but as I said before I would still not take one across the pond or Tahiti. My C-36 was a 1987 but my 310 was a 2005 using identical construction techniques to the current crop of 36's. The Carib yes! After having sailed on many heavily built well constructed "brick sh&thouse" types of boats and Catalina's, I've owned three, there is no doubt that the construction techniques, that cost significantly more, do help to stiffen the boat and make it much more robust in a sea. There is NO shuddering as you fall off the face of a wave on a Hinckley or a Morris or a Tayana 37. My boat yard just finished repairing what I consider to be Catalina's biggest weakness on a 320. Where the hull and deck meet at the walk through transom the boats are tabbed together from the outside and then gelcoated, wet sanded and polished to match the rest of the hull. Many of these newer Catalina's with the walk through transom have had the hull and deck crack and or separate from the hull. This is due in large part to the fact that in order to make the hull fair they must not build up to many layers of glass and mat or the hull and deck will look like it has a bulge where they meet. The proper way to put this together would be to both glass it from the inside and outside but it is literally impossible to glass from the inside once the deck is set.My biggest concern in rough seas would be the torsional twisting of the hull and the upward pressure from the back stay separating the hull and deck. Frank Butler makes these problems go away and pays to fix them and keeps many owners quiet but there have been more than a few with this problem. As I said before I think Catalina's are great boats, and you get a lot for your money, but you do not get a "roaring 40's ready" vessel for 20% of the price of say a Halberg Rassey HR36..I have nothing against the Catalina's I am just a realist and respect their limitations and designed use..

 

[Wanderer138]

Well put, Benny and Warren!

"Blue water" is more than just depth or distance offshore, as I've sailed in brown ocean water 25 miles out and more than 200 feet deep and in blue water half a mile off the beach. As Benny said, it's that deep blue that you only see in deep ocean water and as Warren said, you'll know it as soon as you see it.In my experience, it's a combination of water depth, latitude (you don't hear too much about blue water at high latitudes, probably because of the intensity of the sunlight and the angle at which it strikes the water) water clarity and predictable wind and wave patterns. The last three require you to be far away from large land masses so there are no muddy rivers, seafloor vegetation or daily changes in wind patterns. In addition to most oceans, blue water exists in the southern and western Gulf of Mexico and large seas like the Caribbean and the Med. I wouldn't expect blue water anywhere near large rivers (northern Gulf of Mexico, northern coast of South America, etc.). Just my two cents...PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[higgs]

Mainsail

Your assessment is right on. The Cat is capable of long passages. No way is it as solid as a Tayana.

 

[RichH]

Blue water sailing

"Blue water" means crossing oceans, Coastal mean crossing bays following coastlines or even dashing across to some island. "Blue water (open ocean) sailing can be defined as extended voyaging where one is many days or weeks from land or from a port. During such passagemaking one can encounter many days of rough weather, sometimes to the 'extreme'. Boats specifically designed for 'blue water' are typicallly much 'stronger' so that they have reserve strength which enables them to withstand the structural fatigue & strength requirements day after day after day which would otherwise bring a 'coastal' designed boat to or over the structural limits of their design. In essence boats designed for 'blue water' are usually twice a 'strong' as coastal designed boats; and, the simple physics of such materials strength differences is that the 'heavier' boat is going to structurally last longer. Blue water boats are designed for structural fatigue, coastal boats are designed on the hairy edge of materials fatigue strength. Sure rubber duckies and sheets of plywood have survived across oceans all by themselves and without crew. But for crossing an ocean where the forces of nature can be tremendous ... whats going to better give you a chance of making across without falling apart? Then consider that 24/7 sailing requires that one has to sleep sometimes and the boat will have to take care of itself ---- then you ask yourself are you confident if it will 'hold-together' when the conditions are so bad that noone in their right mind will be topside for more than a minute or two. A 'coastal design' simply isnt designed for this. Open Ocean sailing is much different than being able to run into a port when it gets dicey. Being twice as strong (and heavier) doesnt necessarily mean slow: If you compare the the boats so far discussed by a 'reasonable' benchmark such as PHRF you'll see that:Allied Mistress 39 @ ~190 PHRFCatalina 36 @ ~145 PHRFPassport 37 (Tayana 37 with modern 'split' underbody) @ 145 PHRFTayana 37 @ ~170 PHRFBlue water sailing is usually done at close to 'hull speed' sailing. Directly comparing the 'numbers' of a Catalina 36 with a Ty37 one will notice immediately that the Catalina 36 will be approximately 1/2 the displacement of the Tayana meaning that the acceleration in a Catalina 36 will be faster .... but on passage that constant acceleration will simply tire-out its crew much faster due to is relative less (1/2) 'seakindliness'. Then consider that blue water sailing involves 'tradewinds' (continual 20-30 kts.) and the boat is at hull speed for most of the time ... then you will really appreciate a boat that isnt a 'cork'. Then compare the 'old fashioned' capsize ratio of the two: The Cat36 is at a value of 2 (the 'hairy edge' of whats considered to be safe for a blue water boat), while the Ty37 is @ a very respectable 1.6. These 'numbers' really dont mean much until you get in Force 8-10 for days on end. Remember that 'tradewind sailing' (winter) is normally @ 20-30 kts .... continually. Then, load up both boats with stores for such passagemaking .... add about 2000lb. of food, tankage, etc. and see what happens: The Catalina 36 at 13500# is now 15% heavier and the Ty37 at 22500# is now 8% heavier. Then see what happens to the overloaded boat that is deeper into the water and no longer 'on her lines' when she comes off a wave onto her flat bottom ..... can you say "pound & twist". The Cat 36 was very successfully designed for coastal sailing where the possibility of being in storm conditions for days on end can be avoided by running into a port. A blue water boat is designed to 'survive' without falling apart .... all by herself. I dont care how good a sailor you think you are as on passage you do have to sleep and the boat has to sometimes 'take care of itself'. Maybe thats why a new Ty37 costs about 4 times the price of a Cat 36 ..... "where's the beef?". The Ty37 (and similar Bob Perry designs) remains the most prolific and successful 'blue water" boat; simply ask yourself why that is. Ask yourself how many Catalinas (any model) have circumnavigated; then ask how many Tayanas have. Those numbers should be a significant clue to the serious blue water sailor. Go do the 'numbers' yourself at http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html