What is " BLUE WATER"

[sailaway78]

After the recent thread on what makes a blue water boat, and all the responses and ideas on this, I have to wonder. What do you consider to be blue water sailing.100 miles offshore, 200, crossing the Pacific. Where is the line of separation between coastal and blue water. I have been 100 miles or more offshore in 22, 28, 33, 36, 37 and 39 footers. Is this blue water cruising. In the gulf, the max distance from land you can get is about 300 miles. Is crossing the gulf from say Houston to Key West blue water or coastal cruising. If you run down the west coast from San Diego to Cabo blue water. Is Carribean cruising blue water, even though you are mostly within a day of land at any time.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Tidy Bowl ?

I guess it can be considered blue water.Seriously though, I use the term 'blue water' synonomously with deep water that is far from land. In the western Gulf, as you know, brown water or pea soup green water is probably more appropriate.I think i would consider blue water in the Gulf as a trip from Houston to Key West, or Tampa bay area to the Yucatan Penninsula. On the east coast, I would consider FT. Lauderdale to Bimini in the Bahamas as Blue water although only about 45 miles or so. I think of the term as ananogous to when does a stream become a river? or what is the difference between a cove, a bay or a gulf? The answer is mainly size, but who gets to determine that? I guess its the famous 'They' that make the decisions. IMHO  Tony B

 

[MoonSailer]

Away from Safe Harbor

I think that the general definiton is when you are away from a safe harbor. Operationally this means 2-3 days out as weather forcasts are good for about that long. Theoretically you could be real close to shore but in blue water if there was no safe harbor nearby. All of this goes back to waves being the destroyer of boats. It takes a day or two for the wind to generate large waves so if you watch the weather and see it coming 2 days in advance you can be in your safe harbor.  This leads to a blue water boat.. A boat that can safely handle these large waves and high winds. I've heard the argument that a faster coastal cruiser can avoid weather by running away from the weather while a slower blue water has to survive the weather. But obviously there is no magic line were coastal boats sink!!! The downside of running to a safe harbor is that if you get close to shore but not in your safe harbor you are probably in more danger than if you stay offshore.  Having been only about 10 miles out at night I can't talk about my experience in blue water. But I can say that it can seem like you are on your own pretty cloose to shore.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

I think Blue Water is

more of a concept or a capability than a location. To me it means a boat is capable of a voyage to anywhere. Now, the crew is another matter.

 

[Warren Milberg]

When you look over your

shoulder and see the land from which you departed disappear on the horizon, and there is nothing but water in front of you, I think it safe to say you are "blue water" sailing. It's like pornography: you know it when you see it. It may really excite you, or make you very ill....

 

[Anchor Down]

Drifting

No, now you're defining boats, and the question is about the definition of blue water sailing.I don't think you're going to get a definitive answer. The combination of weather/sea conditions, geography, topography & courses generate too many variables, and therefore, a gray area.Much of the idea of blue water sailing has to do with making a PASSAGE: leaving a coastline & crossng a large body of water, independent of shore-based support. So crossing routes (San Diego to Honolulu, for example), are clearly blue water passages.The San Diego to Cabo run is almost always done inshore, within sight of land, but bashing back to San Diego often requires an initial offshore leg to get some sea-room. Is the return trip a blue-water passage, if no large body of water is crossed? Many would say yes, if the yacht is X miles offshore. But a coastal trip is not a PASSAGE in the sense the SD—Honolulu trip is, and therein lies the problem.How would you evaluate this statement:ALL BLUEWATER SAILING IS OFFSHORE, BUT NOT ALL OFFSHORE SAILING IS BLUEWATER.It's the second phrase that requires examination.

 

[MoonSailer]

Tayana 37 Blue water capable??

Anyone know anything about the Tayana 37??? This is supposedly a blue water boat. Full Keel 20,000#s cutter rigged. I am thinking about buying a larger boat. Is the Tayana a waste of money or would a Catalina 36 do just as well at sea?? We are thinking coastal sailing. But a blue water boat would open up adventures far beyond the gulf coast and bahamas. But really is the Tayana 37 any better in blue water than a catalina 36?? If we were going through the canal and heading to Tahiti would the catalina 36 be comparable. I hope that we all agree Panama to Tahiti is blue water.

 

[Maine Sail]

Moon Sailor are you trolling???

Surely you can't be serious in comparing the construction of a Tayana 37 to a Catalina 36? They are two entirely different boats with the Tayana being heavy, well built and slow and the Catalina being light, built for coastal cruising and fast.. I'm calling a troll on this one!!!

 

[Brian D]

I've heard that the Catalina 36...

is like a cork on the water. It bobs around so bad. I personally don't know, but I do see a lot, adn I mean A LOT, of C36 boats for sale. More of these than the C34 or C32.To me, anything off shore is Blue Water. Off shore being say anywhere in international waters.

 

[Les]

Some added data to confuse the mix....

I normally stay away from this thread of a what is a Blue Water Boat. I agree with Fred that is may well be a conept or a perception.But here is some further data for you to ponder. A couple in my small yacht club have returned after sailing a Catalina 34 three quarters of the way around the world. They started in San Diago and ended in Turkey because they just wated to do something else for awhile. Their boat was not modified except for an added baby stay up forward. Thirty gallon fuel tank and a fifty gallon water tank. She didn't know how to sail when they started. He is Swedish and she is a Yank. They flew whatever national flag was the safest. They endured storms but mostly had good sailing. There picture show to the club show them in many harbors around the world with other people who were also doing just that, sailing around the world. Many of these boats looked like they were in the 24 to 28 foot class--mostly fibreglass sloops sailed by single or young couples. The skipper said that there were a least a hundred or so fiberglass boats like their Catalina (not necessarily made by Catalina) having a good time cruising.Maybe someone ought to do some sort of polling in foreign ports to see what sort of boats are being used to travel the world's oceans.

 

[MoonSailer]

Real Question!!!!

We are considering selling our pearson 323 and buying something bigger. We hear so many fantastic voyages on coastal cruisers that I am begining to wonder if I an just chicken wanting a blue water boat. The Catalina 36 definately is more comfortable at anchor than a Tayana 37 nice big cockpit!!!! Coastal is all we plan on right now. But if I had a boat that a reasonable person would sail across the atlantic ..I'd love to visit places like Ireland and Spain. Then come back across the pond to Veneszuela or Brazil and then hop back up through the islands. On these message boards I keep hearing about hunters,beneteaus and catalinas crossing oceans. Why get stuck with a heavy slow boat for blue water if something lighter faster and more comfortable is just as good???  We really like our Pearson but a little larger boat is appealing just for the extra room to store scuba tanks etc.

 

[Peter18012]

Where I live

Blue Water equates to "salt water". Here in the California Delta, we usually sail in "brown water".

 

[Benny]

Blue water gets its name from its color;

That deep blue color that you get from deep water. In 20 ft of water you may get a deep green or a turquoise blue depending on the composition of the bottom. In 75 to 100 ft of water you do not get a sun reflection from the bottom so the amount of light reflected diminishes as the blackness below turns the clear water into a deep blue color bordering on purple. Because you have to be in deep water to experience it it has become synonimous with offshore. Yes, in the middle of the Gulf and the Caribbean you can experience blue water and depending upon the conditions of the sea you may call it also "offshore"

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Moonsailor............

This is a difficult choice as you are comparing apples to oranges. Is the Catalina 36 up to the task? I believe so, Catalina's are built far better than they are given credit for. Would it be the best choice for a coastal cruiser? Definately Yes. Would it be the best choice for a trip to Tahiti....not by a longshot. But It can make the trip. Now for the Tayana.....Good choice for a coastal cruiser? NOT ! Just a big slug and not much fun to sail. Like sailing a tank.Good choice for a 'blue water' trip? Yes. Some of the other things to consider beyond the actual construction are 1) Tankage - both fuel and water. This is a much bigger factor on a long trip than most people think about. The Catalina has living space, the Tayana has tankage. 2). Sea kindliness, which is also included in seaworthyness. How comfortable will the crew be in rough weather? Hammered to death in a lighter weight boat or more confortable in a heavier stable boat? With the boat rocking and heaving ( the boat, that is) how safe is it to walk in/on or even sit?I would settle on the boat that will satisfy your needs and not dreams.Like I said, its a tough choice.My Allied Ketch, at least to me, is a good compromise between the two. Not overly heavy and yet definately not a slug.As for the idea that a lighter faster boat will get you out of harms way - weatherwise - is not a practical decision maker. Especially if one considers the inaccuracy of weather forecaster. BTW, if you have ever seen any of my other posts, I'm a strong advocate of Catalinas.IMHO Tony B

 

[Maine Sail]

I actually owned a Catalina 36..

I actually owned a Catalina 36 and also have lots of experience on better built boats from Shannon's & Hinckley's to Cape Dory's Pacific Seacraft. I for one would have never taken my C-36 across the pond! The boat does what it is supposed to do very, very well and that is coastal cruise in relatively calm conditions but the build quality of the Catalina 36 is of "price point" construction techniques and although better than some of the other price point products it's still not built to be a true ocean voyaging boat. That said I would feel confident doing the Carib in one..The C-36 is NOT a cork on the water, as someone else mentioned, and there are more of them for sale mostly because they built more 36's than they did 34's since they had two more years of production build time. The C-36 is actually quite a stiff boat and has a much better motion than does the C-34. To address real issues of why I would not take it across the pond:1) Bulkheads are not fiberglassed to the hull and there is considerable flex & cabinetry movement even in just 4-5 foot seas. 2)The rudder design has NO bearings and the rudder stock is hollow where on higher quality boats the rudder stock is solid stainless steel with top and bottom bearings.3) The ports & hatches are not designed to take green water and could be compromised in heavy seas.4) Tankage is minimal to non-existent for a voyage of more than a few days5) The means by which the fuel tanks and water tanks are secured is flat out dangerous if you were to be knocked down as are most of the battery arrangements unless someone upgraded them.6) The companion way is nice and large which is NOT a good idea in heavy weather. The tapered design also allows hatch boards to float up and out very easily. A proper companionway should have straight sides so the boards would have to float all the way up and out not just a few inches.7) The chain plate design is also suspect in that they are attached to the "floating" bulkheads and some rather thin fiberglass. 8) The worst weather I sailed my C-36 in was 8 foot seas, with very short wave periods, and 40 knots steady. It was not fun and she slammed off each wave and shuddered like she was coming apart at any minute. When we got back to the mooring my v-berth door would not shut. After another day of 30 knots on the opposite tack the door finally fit right again...9) Storage space on the Catalina is also non-existent for a long cruise. The design maximizes interior living space, good for coastal cruising but very bad for voyaging, and minimizes real & useful storage space. 10) Every cabinet door would need to be reconfigured to have a positive locking mechanism to prevent being knocked in the mellon by a can of flying re-fried beans is rough seas. I had many of my cabinets fly open even just coastal cruising.The C-36 is a great boat for it's intended purpose coastal cruising or two to three day jaunts like Florida to the Carib..!

 

[Tom S]

Brian, I am not sure who told you that

and what they are comparing it to but it makes no sense unless you are comparing the C36 to lets say a Tayana 37. Who actually told you that a C36 is like a "cork on the water. It bobs around so bad" ? If you are comparing the stability of a C36 to a C320 (or even a C34) there is no comparison the C36 is much more stable. I have sailed on a C320, a C34 a C387 a C400 and a C42. If anything, the downside is that a C36 is a bit slower than some of the other boats in lighter windsMost people that sail the C36 comment just the opposite of what you infered. I have been through heavy winds and big seas with short periods and I could see that my boat was more comfortable than the boats around me. My boat doesn't hobby-horse at all, its got a lot of weight in the keel. Down low in the middle. In fact the C36 is one of the more stable production boats in its class. I have written about this before http://archives.sailboatowners.com/pviewarch.htm?fno=20&sku=2007165092536.27&id=478958&ptl=#2007165205529.7What the C36 (especially the Wing Keel ) has which really makes her exceptionally stabile for her size is that she has a HUGE Ballast Ratio 0.468 !(Ballast/Displacement noted this is with an empty boat displacement). All things being equal The ballast ratio can give some indication of how stiff or tender a boat may be and how comforatble the motion might be. In one of Nigel Calder books he recommends a value of 0.30 or higher for an offshore cruiser. A Cabo Rico 38 is 0.33, a Catalina 42 is 0.36, a Haberg Rassey 39 is 0.37, a Pacific Seacraft 40, is Malo 42 is 0.34, a Caliber 40LRC is .39 and the highest he lists is an Island Packet @ 0.40 (these are values with 2500 lbs cruising weight. The C36 would rank right up the IP 40)Compare that to a Beneteau 411 which is only 0.27. I know the ride on my C36 is going to be a lot more stable. Back to the original post. I agree with Maine Sail that one reply almost sounds as if someone is pulling our legs. If I had a choice of sailing a Tayana 37 or a Catalina 36 to Tahiti I would take the Tayana hands down (Not that one couldn't do it in the C36) I love my C36 and consider it one of the best coastal cruisers out there and would take it over the Tayana for sailing the Northeast and LI Sound but for going to Tahiti I'd take something more like a Tayana (but probably not a Westsnail)

 

[Doug13108]

Do not underestimate

the importance of live-aboard comfort. Your comfort level is personal to you. But, one of the biggest reasons that people abandon cruising is that it turned out not to be much fun living on the boat they chose to do it in. In the Bahamas/Caribbean, and probably everywhere else as well, cruising boats spend 90% of their time sailing nowhere - they're anchored because their owners are enjoying paradise or waiting for weather. Chruch pew settees, crawl-in bunks, and cramped cockpits can get old really fast.We spent 4+ months on a Catalina 36 - Bahamas, DR, PR, USVI. These boats are are perfectly capable and represent a good choice for this kind of sailing. Probably they are a better choice than most similar length "bluewater" boats precisely because the Catalina provides superior live-aboard comfort. My wife and I want a larger boat boat for our 'dream' Bahamas/Caribbean cruise and part of the reason is storage, but mostly it's just us and our personal comfort level. An old Hunter Legend 37 might be OK, but we would definitely not be happy on a Tayana or PS 37. Most everyone would rather have a bluewater boat to cross an ocean, but more than a few people will tell you that they'd rather have a light weight mass produced boat once they got to the paradise on the other side. My personal definition (and I'm not alone) of bluewater sailing is being more than 24 hrs. from land or maybe safe harbor. You can island hop your way through the Bahamas and all the way to South America without being more than 24 hrs. at sea much less 24 hrs. from land.

 

[Malcolm Young]

Maine Sail - are your comments about the C36 current?

Maine Sail - you have a good reputation for being a knowledgeable poster - however I don't agree with some of your general remarks about the C36. They may have applied to your 36 which was built many years ago but I don't think they apply to my 36 which was built 3 years ago. One of the things that drew me to the 36 is that it has been improved constantly over the years. Instead of continuously redesigning new boats of the same length as some makers do, Catalina takes into account owner experience and continually improves the same basic boat year to year (with a big change when they went to the Mark II in the early 90's). For example there were several significant improvements made in the Mark II in 2002, 3, 4 area - with new style chain plates that are very resistant to leakage, full coil mattresses, dinghy outboard motor mount, etc etc. This is typical of Catalina. Now my point - I don't see how my batteries would ever fall out if you turned our boat over - in the 2004 version of the boat they have two 2x4's bolted close over top of them. Similarily, my water tanks are boxed in on all sides. The lids over top of the water tank are screwed down all around. How is the water tank going to fall out? I don't know when they started to do these things, however it must have been since they built your boat. Regarding your other comments - I wonder whether some of them no longer apply. The 36 appeals strongly to the coastal cruisers because it was designed to meet their needs very well. It has a deserved reputation for being a good sailing boat that is both, comfortable to sail and comfortable to live on for extended cruises. I agree that its primary market would not be people that want to sail to Tahiti although the 36 has proven it can do it.I agree with what Tom S from Stamford wrote regarding comfort and stability.

 

[Brian D]

It was not my intent...

To offend. Especially C36 owners. Maybe I should not have said anything at all, but I did and that is that. I have my sights on a C34 for my next boat. But some of the Hunter Legend 37 in the late 80s look real nice also.Anyway, back to work.

 

[Tom S]

Brian. Not offended

Its just that the comment about being a "cork in the water" does not fit the description of the C36. I think the others sentiment and experiences belayed the same thoughts. We just wanted to set the record straight from our point of view. No harm no foul. I think Maine Sail made some very good observations on desirable features of an "offshore boat" . Not that they can't be overcome and modified on the C36 or other boats, and like Malcolm said Catalina has been implementing some of those things already. I know my 4D's are being held in with bolted 2x4's also. (Plus anyone can secure tanks and batteries or create a workable locking system for hatchboards, etc etc) I have always said the rudder is the most vulnerable (as on many Spade Rudders) and a back up rudder would be a good ideaI think Doug in Florida made a very good point. Though that more open salon which is wonderful at anchor becomes a liability when in rough weather offshore. Even with handholds everywhere sooner or later you are going to get thrown off balance and its a big difference if you only go a few feet as opposed to across the whole width of the boat. A good "Passagemaker" is secure and tight below and on deck, so you can brace yourself easily where ever you are. Sometimes what makes a boat a good "Passagemaker" does not make it as good a "Cruising boat". In many ways they are mutually exclusive except in the larger and more expensive boats.Back to the original Question. I figure I will give you all of my definitions so as help define the nuiances between different sailing to me: "Blue water sailing" - Is more than a day from safe harbor"Green water sailing" - Where you will often and consistently be taking water over the bow (Typically high latitude sailing, but crossing the Gulf Stream at certain times would qualify)"Passagemaking" - Extended sailing trip without a stop, typically a week or more"Cruising" - Extended living on the boat while moving it once in a while. Could be for a summer or a lifetime, location is not important aka "Living the life" ;D