Hi all, This seems like a simple question...or is it? So, what is a "sailor?" How does one know when one is a sailor and not just someone who sails a boat? Thanks, Richard H23 "Invictus"
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This one could open a can of worms
In the 19th century literature, the term 'sailorman' is used to mean one who knows the ropes. 'Sojer' (from 'soldier') is a name used for ineptness on board. In putting my two cents in, I'd say that one isn't a sailor(man) unless one knows how to reef, hand and steer in all expected weather conditions.
In the 19th century literature, the term 'sailorman' is used to mean one who knows the ropes. 'Sojer' (from 'soldier') is a name used for ineptness on board. In putting my two cents in, I'd say that one isn't a sailor(man) unless one knows how to reef, hand and steer in all expected weather conditions.
Gantor, lessor, sailor
A grantor is one who grants A lessor is one who leases A sailor is one who sails
A grantor is one who grants A lessor is one who leases A sailor is one who sails
Blue water
I have sailed for 29years but only on inland lakes. I sail but I'm not a sailer untill I sail deep blue water.
I have sailed for 29years but only on inland lakes. I sail but I'm not a sailer untill I sail deep blue water.
Sailors are people who go to water in boats . . .
This topic keeps coming up in various forums. I am of the impression (very short of consulting Webster's Dictionary) that anyone who goes to "sea" in boats, who is not a passenger, is a sailor. One cannot deny the thousands of sailors lost in ships of all sizes in war and in peace; nor woulld I attempt to rail against the Coasties doing ice breaker and freighter escort duty in the Great Lakes in the dead of winter or the alleged heat of summer! The folks doing the Chicago to Macinac Island Race? Sailors or just boat people who like to race? I am of the impression that a Sailor is one who pursues boating with a professional zeal! (Thus eliminates most passengers and cooks). Bob
This topic keeps coming up in various forums. I am of the impression (very short of consulting Webster's Dictionary) that anyone who goes to "sea" in boats, who is not a passenger, is a sailor. One cannot deny the thousands of sailors lost in ships of all sizes in war and in peace; nor woulld I attempt to rail against the Coasties doing ice breaker and freighter escort duty in the Great Lakes in the dead of winter or the alleged heat of summer! The folks doing the Chicago to Macinac Island Race? Sailors or just boat people who like to race? I am of the impression that a Sailor is one who pursues boating with a professional zeal! (Thus eliminates most passengers and cooks). Bob
Depends on whether you are Romantic or Classicist
The philosophical difference between a Romantic and a Classicist is that a Romantic will equate what he does with what he is whilst a Classicist will be able to draw a line between his actions and his identity. For example in literature, a Romantic would say he IS a poet, whilst a Classicist would say he writes poetry. It may seem subtle, but it's also a significant difference in attitude. For example, if the Romantic writes a bad poem, he will equate it with self-esteem. He will say, 'Wow, my work sucks, therefore I suck.' The Classicist will say, 'How dare anyone call my work bad... to heck with them,' and go on living without believing he has been personally attacked. I see this a lot in young students who can't take sincere and well-meant criticism on their work without somehow translating it to themselves (so I guess from my saying that you can tell I am NOT the Romantic about writing. Half my works sucks anyway. I'm okay with it). Just don't take this too far down the wrong lines. A Romantic is NOT all about love; that's only a piece of it. And Aristotle did say, 'We are what we habitually do'; but I prefer to think he meant that about how we unfortunately come to look at it rather than how it really is, because a Classicist like him ought to be able to separate the two. Read Pirsik's 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' for a really good modern view of this dichotomy. He makes the point that maintaining motorcycles is Classical (logical) whilst riding them is Romantic (sensory). The whole time I read that book I kept saying the same thing about sailing. Oh, and by the way... I sail boats. [wink] JC 2
The philosophical difference between a Romantic and a Classicist is that a Romantic will equate what he does with what he is whilst a Classicist will be able to draw a line between his actions and his identity. For example in literature, a Romantic would say he IS a poet, whilst a Classicist would say he writes poetry. It may seem subtle, but it's also a significant difference in attitude. For example, if the Romantic writes a bad poem, he will equate it with self-esteem. He will say, 'Wow, my work sucks, therefore I suck.' The Classicist will say, 'How dare anyone call my work bad... to heck with them,' and go on living without believing he has been personally attacked. I see this a lot in young students who can't take sincere and well-meant criticism on their work without somehow translating it to themselves (so I guess from my saying that you can tell I am NOT the Romantic about writing. Half my works sucks anyway. I'm okay with it). Just don't take this too far down the wrong lines. A Romantic is NOT all about love; that's only a piece of it. And Aristotle did say, 'We are what we habitually do'; but I prefer to think he meant that about how we unfortunately come to look at it rather than how it really is, because a Classicist like him ought to be able to separate the two. Read Pirsik's 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' for a really good modern view of this dichotomy. He makes the point that maintaining motorcycles is Classical (logical) whilst riding them is Romantic (sensory). The whole time I read that book I kept saying the same thing about sailing. Oh, and by the way... I sail boats. [wink] JC 2
Sailor or lubber
How I wanted to avoid this, as words are terrible things. Yet, JCII needs to clarify things. Is the romantic-classic argument a polarized thing like is so popular now, good-evil, liberal-conservative, for or against, or is it a continuum? Perhaps we can look at the question as a continuum and place ourselves somewhere between sailor (knows it all) and lubber (avoids a bath tub). I have seen this method used to deal with aptitude (artist-mechanic) where an individual is locked in. In the case of sailing it would seem that experience, and learning from the experience, would relocate the individual on the scale. The problem is in defining waypoints on the continuum to give you a sense of where you are in the fog. I would disagree that you have to go blue water to be a sailor. The Great Lakes can give you challanges, they may not be the same as the big ponds but just as entertaining. In that vein, I might suggest that those ignorant of the history and traditions of the craft are not sailors. "If you call that line a rope again I will throw you out that little round window!" But having read all the O'Brian novels, and a lot of the non-fiction he used, make me more of a sailor than you? OK, not really. I doubt if 25 percent of the sailors/sailboat owners can identify, Nelson, Dana, Cochrane, Hugill, but most will leave me in their wake. One of the arguments in anthropology is about words not being things but rather representations of things, a label. So, what are we rambling on about? A definition or a state of mind? Can we use the divisions/definitions established by those entities that provide sail training? Is it possible to settle this without a meeting on an appropriate island with a substantial supply of beer? Andy "Baroque" Sailing under Letter of Marque from the Duchy of Freedonia
How I wanted to avoid this, as words are terrible things. Yet, JCII needs to clarify things. Is the romantic-classic argument a polarized thing like is so popular now, good-evil, liberal-conservative, for or against, or is it a continuum? Perhaps we can look at the question as a continuum and place ourselves somewhere between sailor (knows it all) and lubber (avoids a bath tub). I have seen this method used to deal with aptitude (artist-mechanic) where an individual is locked in. In the case of sailing it would seem that experience, and learning from the experience, would relocate the individual on the scale. The problem is in defining waypoints on the continuum to give you a sense of where you are in the fog. I would disagree that you have to go blue water to be a sailor. The Great Lakes can give you challanges, they may not be the same as the big ponds but just as entertaining. In that vein, I might suggest that those ignorant of the history and traditions of the craft are not sailors. "If you call that line a rope again I will throw you out that little round window!" But having read all the O'Brian novels, and a lot of the non-fiction he used, make me more of a sailor than you? OK, not really. I doubt if 25 percent of the sailors/sailboat owners can identify, Nelson, Dana, Cochrane, Hugill, but most will leave me in their wake. One of the arguments in anthropology is about words not being things but rather representations of things, a label. So, what are we rambling on about? A definition or a state of mind? Can we use the divisions/definitions established by those entities that provide sail training? Is it possible to settle this without a meeting on an appropriate island with a substantial supply of beer? Andy "Baroque" Sailing under Letter of Marque from the Duchy of Freedonia
Sailor?
The term sailor is not a rank or a positron. It is not earned. It is just a label; "one who sails". In Bill's post he listed the skills "reef, hand, & steer" This did not earn the rank of sailor, it earned the rank of "Able". I guess you can consider yourself promoted to "sailor" when someone points and declares "Look, he's sailing!"
The term sailor is not a rank or a positron. It is not earned. It is just a label; "one who sails". In Bill's post he listed the skills "reef, hand, & steer" This did not earn the rank of sailor, it earned the rank of "Able". I guess you can consider yourself promoted to "sailor" when someone points and declares "Look, he's sailing!"
Andy's a sailor 
Well, Andy is right; to some, words themselves may mean nothing. What I meant as a humorous exercise has come back to haunt me (subtlety is an elusive thing online!). It was only meant in the same way as we razzed my uncle the doctor about applying all that education to another realm of thought-- you know: 'So is it "starve a jib and feed a main"? --or "starve a main and feed a jib"? All that education should be good for SOMEthing!' (BTW this is the same uncle who made a gift of Pirsik's book, a must-read for anyone intellectually contemplating this two-sided issue.) Ironic however that Andy uses a Romantic's continuum concept to look at the issue! --and yet, Andy, your boat is named 'Baroque'? That's funny! ;D For historically and philosophically the Baroque mindset is VERY firmly in the Classicist end of the dichotomy... as with Descartes himself. I suppose all this suggests that we boaties tend to defy categorisation as a rule and shall ever remain a varied and colourful lot! Thanks for the food for thought. JC 2
Well, Andy is right; to some, words themselves may mean nothing. What I meant as a humorous exercise has come back to haunt me (subtlety is an elusive thing online!). It was only meant in the same way as we razzed my uncle the doctor about applying all that education to another realm of thought-- you know: 'So is it "starve a jib and feed a main"? --or "starve a main and feed a jib"? All that education should be good for SOMEthing!' (BTW this is the same uncle who made a gift of Pirsik's book, a must-read for anyone intellectually contemplating this two-sided issue.) Ironic however that Andy uses a Romantic's continuum concept to look at the issue! --and yet, Andy, your boat is named 'Baroque'? That's funny! ;D For historically and philosophically the Baroque mindset is VERY firmly in the Classicist end of the dichotomy... as with Descartes himself. I suppose all this suggests that we boaties tend to defy categorisation as a rule and shall ever remain a varied and colourful lot! Thanks for the food for thought. JC 2
But seriously folks
I just become weary when anyone tries to label anyone too closely. Andy's right about that too. My dad has been noted as a yacht designer, and that is what we all often call him; but to know him only as that limits our comprehension of him drastically. My family is full of people who get called 'Renaissance men', unfortunately by people who little comprehend what that means. It often seems they are fetching for a label to label people without really understanding what labels really do. I find myself perpetually under-employed to this day because people so badly need to label me into a category so they can handle what obviously fits well into NO single category at all. The end result is that I am put into that miscellaneous category of 'Not desirable' (or 'understandable'). That said, my dad was a designer, a draughtsman, an engineer, a musician, a luthier, a cabinetmaker, a pilot, a mechanic, a sailor (yes), a competitor, a gymnast, an artist (in many media), a patriot, a carpenter, a rigger, a painter, a surveyor, a teacher, a student, and dozens of other things I will only alienate people to mention further. The point is that you can't categorise a yachtie any more easily than you can categorise my dad. We boat owner/operators are all sailors, tacticians, navigators, strategists, surveyors, electricians, mechanics, cooks, housekeepers, accountants, seamstresses, plumbers, launderers, errand-boys, painters, fishermen... and anything else you can imagine that has a label. To call any of us any one of those things, for simple want of an easy label to use, is selling us all short. To call any one of us 'sailor' must encompass all of the above and then some; and we must not put too fine a point on either the quantity or variety of experience. I have seen people call themselves 'architect' who could not draw a straight line; but should I deny them the right to style themselves any way they like? If the guy can or can't draw a proper house, that's a good enough measure for me. The same is true for any one of us and our sailing ability or experience to date. In that case maybe we should consider what we are as coming from what we do, or have done. Sailboat people may be more multifaceted than any other breed of humankind. Let's celebrate that and not worry about what the smaller-minded have to say about it. Besides, I always thought that a 'sailor' was some barefoot and toothless Jack Tar-looking guy in ripped-off white canvas pants and a red-and-white striped shirt climbing ratlines and chewing on corncob pipes whilst yelling things like 'Thar she blows!' and 'Land ho!' --NOT anyone I've been sailing with recently! JC 2
I just become weary when anyone tries to label anyone too closely. Andy's right about that too. My dad has been noted as a yacht designer, and that is what we all often call him; but to know him only as that limits our comprehension of him drastically. My family is full of people who get called 'Renaissance men', unfortunately by people who little comprehend what that means. It often seems they are fetching for a label to label people without really understanding what labels really do. I find myself perpetually under-employed to this day because people so badly need to label me into a category so they can handle what obviously fits well into NO single category at all. The end result is that I am put into that miscellaneous category of 'Not desirable' (or 'understandable'). That said, my dad was a designer, a draughtsman, an engineer, a musician, a luthier, a cabinetmaker, a pilot, a mechanic, a sailor (yes), a competitor, a gymnast, an artist (in many media), a patriot, a carpenter, a rigger, a painter, a surveyor, a teacher, a student, and dozens of other things I will only alienate people to mention further. The point is that you can't categorise a yachtie any more easily than you can categorise my dad. We boat owner/operators are all sailors, tacticians, navigators, strategists, surveyors, electricians, mechanics, cooks, housekeepers, accountants, seamstresses, plumbers, launderers, errand-boys, painters, fishermen... and anything else you can imagine that has a label. To call any of us any one of those things, for simple want of an easy label to use, is selling us all short. To call any one of us 'sailor' must encompass all of the above and then some; and we must not put too fine a point on either the quantity or variety of experience. I have seen people call themselves 'architect' who could not draw a straight line; but should I deny them the right to style themselves any way they like? If the guy can or can't draw a proper house, that's a good enough measure for me. The same is true for any one of us and our sailing ability or experience to date. In that case maybe we should consider what we are as coming from what we do, or have done. Sailboat people may be more multifaceted than any other breed of humankind. Let's celebrate that and not worry about what the smaller-minded have to say about it. Besides, I always thought that a 'sailor' was some barefoot and toothless Jack Tar-looking guy in ripped-off white canvas pants and a red-and-white striped shirt climbing ratlines and chewing on corncob pipes whilst yelling things like 'Thar she blows!' and 'Land ho!' --NOT anyone I've been sailing with recently!
JC 2A State of Mind
Put someone on a sail boat and they will call themselves a sailor. In their minds they are the most adept at sailing and they become critical of all other sailors' talents. We have all seen "adept" sailors. Haven't we?
Put someone on a sail boat and they will call themselves a sailor. In their minds they are the most adept at sailing and they become critical of all other sailors' talents. We have all seen "adept" sailors. Haven't we?
Perhaps it's the quality of one's dreams...?
Explorers dream of challenging voyages Romantics dream of secluded anchorages Contenders dream of split-second wins Pretenders dream of luxury yachts and blazers Stinkpotters dream of power and horses Neurasthenics dream of indestructible vessels Flamers have only nightmares (till death sets them free....) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SAILORS ALL ?? ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Flying Dutchman
Explorers dream of challenging voyages Romantics dream of secluded anchorages Contenders dream of split-second wins Pretenders dream of luxury yachts and blazers Stinkpotters dream of power and horses Neurasthenics dream of indestructible vessels Flamers have only nightmares (till death sets them free....) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SAILORS ALL ?? ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Flying Dutchman
A life at Sea
A sailor to me is one who will leave everything he owns behind and sets sail for places they have never been. To explore and experience the perils of the Sea. One who would rather be on his Boat than anywhere else in the World. Tim Welsh H34 AKA Cabo Wabo........... P.S. 4 years and counting till my adventure begins...
A sailor to me is one who will leave everything he owns behind and sets sail for places they have never been. To explore and experience the perils of the Sea. One who would rather be on his Boat than anywhere else in the World. Tim Welsh H34 AKA Cabo Wabo........... P.S. 4 years and counting till my adventure begins...
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Sailor
I believe that thinking of yourself as a sailor is like thinking of yourself as a cowboy. Am I a cowboy? I rode the bulls in a rodeo when I was young. I have branded cattle and calves and been bucked off a horse. I have not been on a horse in 20 years, not touched live beef in 10 years. I have a $400 handmade hat, 8 pairs of boots, 20 cowboy shirts and a number of boot cut jeans. Next week I get my boat wet, will I be a sailor? Only if I drown while trying to sail the damn thing, but I will still be buried in a western jacket, shirt, pants and boots. Not the hat though, my grandson gets that. I think being a sailor is a state of mind, not vocation, education or hobby.
I believe that thinking of yourself as a sailor is like thinking of yourself as a cowboy. Am I a cowboy? I rode the bulls in a rodeo when I was young. I have branded cattle and calves and been bucked off a horse. I have not been on a horse in 20 years, not touched live beef in 10 years. I have a $400 handmade hat, 8 pairs of boots, 20 cowboy shirts and a number of boot cut jeans. Next week I get my boat wet, will I be a sailor? Only if I drown while trying to sail the damn thing, but I will still be buried in a western jacket, shirt, pants and boots. Not the hat though, my grandson gets that. I think being a sailor is a state of mind, not vocation, education or hobby.
My idea of a sailor
If your in the US Navy (or any countries Navy), if you own a useable sailboat, or are a crewmember on a sailboat then you are a sailor. PS- What I mean by usable sailboat is one that can actually go out on the water. A boat that is either ready to sail or can be repaired. Things like models, pictures, and tattoos don't count.
If your in the US Navy (or any countries Navy), if you own a useable sailboat, or are a crewmember on a sailboat then you are a sailor. PS- What I mean by usable sailboat is one that can actually go out on the water. A boat that is either ready to sail or can be repaired. Things like models, pictures, and tattoos don't count.
Sun Hunter
Being a sailor is simply having a overpowering internal passion and compass call to the waters edge, and able to be aboard at any capacity no matter it be the commander or deck hand.
Being a sailor is simply having a overpowering internal passion and compass call to the waters edge, and able to be aboard at any capacity no matter it be the commander or deck hand.
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