What happens when you let go. I read in another thread that if the wind / boat gets out of control to just let go of the tiller and the boat will round up into the wind. Really?? Mine does not. It heads off down wind. Whether your boat rounds up or heads off would depend on the sails up and how the boat is tuned. If I let the sails go and the tiller go my C27 goes broad side. Is that hove to? What do your C27s do?
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Rob Rich
Weather helm
Walt, sounds like your mast may be slighly out of tune, leaning more fore than aft. Mast rake (slighly bending the mast backward) will help the boat tend to round up into the wind, which is a saftey factor in case you go overboard. Now, if your boat heads up into the wind, then goes through it (and you do nothing to the jib) then yes, you are hove-to and this is a wonderful position to be in if you need to ride out a storm, or even drop sails. In this config, the main is set for a normal close reach, but the jib is set on the opposite (windward) side of the boat, creating two opposing force vectors. My wife and I used this manuever to drop our sails last night in a building wind. Also makes you go real slow, on what would be a beam reach if your main and jib were properly set on the leward side of the ship. Anyone recently tune your 27? If so, would like to hear before and after stories! Rob
Walt, sounds like your mast may be slighly out of tune, leaning more fore than aft. Mast rake (slighly bending the mast backward) will help the boat tend to round up into the wind, which is a saftey factor in case you go overboard. Now, if your boat heads up into the wind, then goes through it (and you do nothing to the jib) then yes, you are hove-to and this is a wonderful position to be in if you need to ride out a storm, or even drop sails. In this config, the main is set for a normal close reach, but the jib is set on the opposite (windward) side of the boat, creating two opposing force vectors. My wife and I used this manuever to drop our sails last night in a building wind. Also makes you go real slow, on what would be a beam reach if your main and jib were properly set on the leward side of the ship. Anyone recently tune your 27? If so, would like to hear before and after stories! Rob
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Brad Williams
Fix that lee helm right away.
AS Rob says, move the mast forward. With the boat sitting comfortably at a slip, let a halyard hang down from the top of the mast and check how far out of plumb the mast is. Someone can give you the prefered amount of rake. Loosen the back stay and tighten the forestay to get the proper specs....and don't forget the shrouds. I think you want a little bit of weather helm....that is, you want to have to pull a little on the tiller to keep the boat going in a straight line. You have lee helm if the boat wants to go down wind....you'll find yourself having to push on the stick to go straight. You'll get different tendencies depending on your sail configuration...that is if you are changing from a 110 to a 150 headsail.. I don't think I'd recommend "letting go of the tiller". If you are being over powered, head up into the wind and/or release the sheets a bit. Good Sailing, Brad
AS Rob says, move the mast forward. With the boat sitting comfortably at a slip, let a halyard hang down from the top of the mast and check how far out of plumb the mast is. Someone can give you the prefered amount of rake. Loosen the back stay and tighten the forestay to get the proper specs....and don't forget the shrouds. I think you want a little bit of weather helm....that is, you want to have to pull a little on the tiller to keep the boat going in a straight line. You have lee helm if the boat wants to go down wind....you'll find yourself having to push on the stick to go straight. You'll get different tendencies depending on your sail configuration...that is if you are changing from a 110 to a 150 headsail.. I don't think I'd recommend "letting go of the tiller". If you are being over powered, head up into the wind and/or release the sheets a bit. Good Sailing, Brad
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Walt L.
Experiment Learn and Adjust
Thanks Rob and Brad. For my 1973 C27 the spec said to make the mast plumb, which I did, no rake. I do have a split backstay that I have not played with. I did not tune any of my stays on the tight side. The lee stays on a hard tack (say 20% heel) are almost loose. If I pull in my split backstay would that pull the mast back? I think I will have to rake the mast back to get the weather helm. I had the opportunity to lay bare pole for 15 minute in 45-kt winds, gusts to 50 and 3-ft seas a month ago. With an untended helm my boat went broadside to the wind and waves. I could steer down wind easily to 3 to 4 knots but I could not bring the bow up to point into the wind bare pole. Even in those conditions that C27 felt so secure that I felt I could experiment. I ended up running down 6 miles bare pole to a sheltered bay raised a reefed mail and sailed in. I have only had this boat in the water sense January and I am not a very experience sailor. But it may be time to spend tuning / raking the mast the next couple of weekends. One weekend will be doing the trigonometry. What length should I adjust the forestay to move the top of a 33 foot mast 4 inches?
Thanks Rob and Brad. For my 1973 C27 the spec said to make the mast plumb, which I did, no rake. I do have a split backstay that I have not played with. I did not tune any of my stays on the tight side. The lee stays on a hard tack (say 20% heel) are almost loose. If I pull in my split backstay would that pull the mast back? I think I will have to rake the mast back to get the weather helm. I had the opportunity to lay bare pole for 15 minute in 45-kt winds, gusts to 50 and 3-ft seas a month ago. With an untended helm my boat went broadside to the wind and waves. I could steer down wind easily to 3 to 4 knots but I could not bring the bow up to point into the wind bare pole. Even in those conditions that C27 felt so secure that I felt I could experiment. I ended up running down 6 miles bare pole to a sheltered bay raised a reefed mail and sailed in. I have only had this boat in the water sense January and I am not a very experience sailor. But it may be time to spend tuning / raking the mast the next couple of weekends. One weekend will be doing the trigonometry. What length should I adjust the forestay to move the top of a 33 foot mast 4 inches?
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Brad Williams
Walt, I'm all turned around here.
I was trying to agree with Rob and say to lean the mast back to alleviate the lee helm and create a little weather helm. I said the opposit. Sorry, but you seem to have understood what I meant. If the mast is plumb and still not giving the desired weather helm, lean it back a bit. The specs say plumb, based on a certain head sail configuration. If you've still got the lee helm with the mast raked according to specs, the headsail is overpowering the rig. Rake back. The adjustable back stay will bend the mast back....and, yes, I guess that will create weather helm. But, it also changes your sail shape, the primary purpose of the adjustment. With barepoles, the boat won't head up because you can't get any water past the rudder to allow the turn (ie you have to have some forward motion to start with to get the rudder to work). Heading down wind, especially in the wind you are talking about, yes, the boat will "blow" along the top of the water, allowing water to go past the rudder and give you some control. Brad
I was trying to agree with Rob and say to lean the mast back to alleviate the lee helm and create a little weather helm. I said the opposit. Sorry, but you seem to have understood what I meant. If the mast is plumb and still not giving the desired weather helm, lean it back a bit. The specs say plumb, based on a certain head sail configuration. If you've still got the lee helm with the mast raked according to specs, the headsail is overpowering the rig. Rake back. The adjustable back stay will bend the mast back....and, yes, I guess that will create weather helm. But, it also changes your sail shape, the primary purpose of the adjustment. With barepoles, the boat won't head up because you can't get any water past the rudder to allow the turn (ie you have to have some forward motion to start with to get the rudder to work). Heading down wind, especially in the wind you are talking about, yes, the boat will "blow" along the top of the water, allowing water to go past the rudder and give you some control. Brad
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Walt L.
Rake aft to increase Weather helm
I think you're right. A stock boat probably has a standard 100% jib. I do not have a strong lee helm. The smallest jib I have is a 110%. If I had a 100% jib the boat would probably round up. Being as I cannot afford a new sail but I can afford $20 to extend my forestay I probably will do the latter. I have a major bottom job coming up that I have to save for so I can't spend anything that looks like money. I wonder how other C27 behave and what other sailors have done.
I think you're right. A stock boat probably has a standard 100% jib. I do not have a strong lee helm. The smallest jib I have is a 110%. If I had a 100% jib the boat would probably round up. Being as I cannot afford a new sail but I can afford $20 to extend my forestay I probably will do the latter. I have a major bottom job coming up that I have to save for so I can't spend anything that looks like money. I wonder how other C27 behave and what other sailors have done.
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Rob Rich
Backstay adjuster, shrowd tension guage
Hey Walt, That was some heavy weather you were out in! If that didn't scare you off, little will. I'd recommend that you pick up a few texts on the basic principles of monohull sailing. Go to your favorite bookstore and find a text that you feel comfortable with. Everyone has a favorite (Chapman's), but I think your first text should be one that you like so you can digest it easily - especially one with tons of diagrams so the physics concepts come across clear. Tackle the more intricate texts after you get a solid foundation. The boat will "round up" when under sail, but not under bare poles. It's pretty much at the mercy of the wind without sails, so you definately want to be hands-on when it comes to the tiller and throttle. The reason your ship bears off is called freeboard, which is a term that refers to the portion of the boat from the waterline to the top of the cabin which is exposed to the wind. I consider this area to be like a billboard in regards to the wind - something that can be unweildy. You were probably not able overcome the force of the freeboard with your engine, and so you got blown downwind - a dangerous situation if the shore is behind you. You also need to be careful in this situation in high seas, as you might broach, and that can result in taking on water. As far as your forestay goes - I wouldn't move that at all. Sufficient pressure on the backstay adjuster should be enough to give you weather helm under sail power. Also, check into a tension guage, or if you are cheap (like me), borrow one of your dockmates'. You should really have the precise tension on the shrouds to avoid undue stress on the mast and standing rigging. Also, one of the best things you can do is to take a fellow C-27 owner out and give him some helm time. He or she will be able to point out trim, tuning, handling and rigging improvements. Best of luck, and read read read! Rob
Hey Walt, That was some heavy weather you were out in! If that didn't scare you off, little will. I'd recommend that you pick up a few texts on the basic principles of monohull sailing. Go to your favorite bookstore and find a text that you feel comfortable with. Everyone has a favorite (Chapman's), but I think your first text should be one that you like so you can digest it easily - especially one with tons of diagrams so the physics concepts come across clear. Tackle the more intricate texts after you get a solid foundation. The boat will "round up" when under sail, but not under bare poles. It's pretty much at the mercy of the wind without sails, so you definately want to be hands-on when it comes to the tiller and throttle. The reason your ship bears off is called freeboard, which is a term that refers to the portion of the boat from the waterline to the top of the cabin which is exposed to the wind. I consider this area to be like a billboard in regards to the wind - something that can be unweildy. You were probably not able overcome the force of the freeboard with your engine, and so you got blown downwind - a dangerous situation if the shore is behind you. You also need to be careful in this situation in high seas, as you might broach, and that can result in taking on water. As far as your forestay goes - I wouldn't move that at all. Sufficient pressure on the backstay adjuster should be enough to give you weather helm under sail power. Also, check into a tension guage, or if you are cheap (like me), borrow one of your dockmates'. You should really have the precise tension on the shrouds to avoid undue stress on the mast and standing rigging. Also, one of the best things you can do is to take a fellow C-27 owner out and give him some helm time. He or she will be able to point out trim, tuning, handling and rigging improvements. Best of luck, and read read read! Rob
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Vince Cruz, Jr.
What are Proper Shroud Tensions...
I agree w/ Rob's advice that you first apply tension to the backstay & see if that cures the lee helm b/4 raking the mast aft. You need to be read careful in raking the mast aft to make sure that it's either completely straight or has some slight pre-bend (accomplished by the lwr. shrouds) or you could risk losing your mast. Rob, what are the recommended tensions for the upper & lower shrouds? I can't find any publication (including my owner's manual) that makes any recommendations. The manual only recommends general instructions such as "...the lower shrouds are not to be loose, but are not to have tension". Any quanititative suggestions?
I agree w/ Rob's advice that you first apply tension to the backstay & see if that cures the lee helm b/4 raking the mast aft. You need to be read careful in raking the mast aft to make sure that it's either completely straight or has some slight pre-bend (accomplished by the lwr. shrouds) or you could risk losing your mast. Rob, what are the recommended tensions for the upper & lower shrouds? I can't find any publication (including my owner's manual) that makes any recommendations. The manual only recommends general instructions such as "...the lower shrouds are not to be loose, but are not to have tension". Any quanititative suggestions?
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Rob Rich
Vince...
A shrowd tension guage will have the proper settings on it. It's got a simple chart on it that helps you set the proper tension and is universal across boat types and maufacturers. The setting has more to do with the size of your boat and the diameter of your shrowd, rather than what any boat manufacturer suggests (like Catalina or Hunter). Just make sure you get a tension guage that will handle the diameter of the shrowds on your boat. Check with West Marine for the right size. The last guage I used allowed me to set the lower shrowds, but was not big enough to handle the fore and back stays. Best Regards, Rob
A shrowd tension guage will have the proper settings on it. It's got a simple chart on it that helps you set the proper tension and is universal across boat types and maufacturers. The setting has more to do with the size of your boat and the diameter of your shrowd, rather than what any boat manufacturer suggests (like Catalina or Hunter). Just make sure you get a tension guage that will handle the diameter of the shrowds on your boat. Check with West Marine for the right size. The last guage I used allowed me to set the lower shrowds, but was not big enough to handle the fore and back stays. Best Regards, Rob
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Vince Cruz, Jr.
Thanks, Rob...
Thanks for the advice, Rob ... and the warning on the size of the gauge. You have a terrific sailing lake @ Lake Travis &, similar to Fort Worth, are able to sail nearly year round. Thanks again...
Thanks for the advice, Rob ... and the warning on the size of the gauge. You have a terrific sailing lake @ Lake Travis &, similar to Fort Worth, are able to sail nearly year round. Thanks again...
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