What happens to red dye in marine diesel?

[cbourne200]

Just curious...

Bought 5 gal of marine diesel in Spring. Had it in diesel Jerry can (yellow). Poured approx 3 gal into internal tank in Spring. Have had problems with dirty fuel tank, plus back problems that have kept me from doing anything about it. Plus heat index of 110+ for most of summer.

Today high of 81, overcast, back doing OK. Had decided to abandon internal tank and put in portable 6 gal tank. Ordered all fittings, bought tank & fuel line and installed. Measured fuel from Jerry can into clear container to determine quantity. Found fuel in Jerry can to be clear. When fuel from internal tank drained from Racor, it was still red.

Fuel in yellow Jerry can sat in cabin of boat for last 4 months. Noticed a little dark sediment in bottom of can before I noticed clear fuel. Stabilizer/biocide added to can in Spring.

Long explanation for short question - will color precipitate out if exposed to light? I wouldn't expect to see clear fuel or sediment in tank...

 

[Don Crowther]

Sorry I can't answer your question but I would not use that fuel in my boat.

 

[JamesG161]

I assume it was red when you filled your tank from the Jerry can.

Curiosity got me and i looked up the dye normally used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dyes

There are 2 types used "legally". 26/27 and 164.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent_Red_26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan_III

The second one (164) is now EPA preferred.

From my chemistry background 26/27 might oxidize and precipitate, but I have never heard of that happening. We can eliminate temperature since both were stored aboard.

The 164 is used in smaller doses.

My last guess is the Jerry Can. It could be the plastic can's yellow dye reacted with the red.

I would replace can and fuel.
Jim...

 

[Joetech]

yellow to red?

This is my 3rd season with a c27. It had a full tank when I bought it and ran the tank down to about half the first season. I added over 5 gals last year and around 8 gals this year.
This week I had the some motor problems (whole other story and forum post) and I took some fuel out of the tank. It was red. Everything I have added, this year and last been yellow from a local gas station (yes I know about the road tax but its just easier). So I have added about 13 gals to a 19 gal tank so over half of the fuel started as yellow. Is the red dye really that strong?

 

[cbourne200]

Jerry can was new when I bought the 5 gals in Spring. Yes, fuel was red when I purchased it. Transfer procedure was same, transferring into clear jar to pour into tank (I don't trust pour spout from can).

Since this was a new can made by Briggs & Stratton with 'diesel' stamped on it, what would you suggest as 'right can'? Ran engine at low RPM Saturday for about 10 min, about 30 min Sunday at cruising RPM (tach doesn't work) and all appeared fine.

While fuel had a 'slight tint' to it (definitely not red/pink tint), I thought it odd that it wasn't color I thought I'd see. Maybe light does affect color? Can was kept with cap on tightly from time of transfer in Spring until Friday.

Blue Sta-bil plus Bio-bor used as stabilizer/bioguard. I doubt these caused change in color.

More of a curiosity question... I know red color has no effect other than to mark it as 'low tax/untaxed' fuel. Only effect is on the brain...

 

[Capt jgw]

Did the can sit in the sun for any length of time? The color red bleaches out very easily and I've seen the pink antifreeze go clear in a couple weeks, in winter when there's not much sun. The yellow can won't filter out much UV either.

 

[JamesG161]

Jerry can was new when I bought the 5 gals in Spring

It was just a guess, so looks like it is not the problem.

Sounds like the fuel is ok too. A guy named Diesel designed an engine to run on crap from a refinery. If you could get it to flow, you could use it.

Today's low polluting Diesel engines are a bit more sensitive.

I would suspect UV light would fade most colors.

Jim...

 

[cbourne200]

I'm gonna write it off as light bleaching problem. Had heard from someone that diesel never was 'bad', may have contaminates that need to be removed, but would burn regardless. I'll dump in another gal or so - that will bring back the color and give me piece of mind.

Thanks for all discussions.

 

[centerline]

I have a red plastic 5gal outboard tank on the roof rack of my enclosed "toy hauler" trailer to supply the dickenson newport diesel heater.
I installed a sight glass in it so i can tell when its getting low,and I use the red fuel and it has never bleached out from the sun, not even a little bit.
the diesel sets up there year round without any shade.

in my opinion formed from my experience, dyed diesel bleaching out from the uv rays of the sun is highly unlikely.

it is possible that certain contaminants could destabilize the dye and cause it to seperate and settle out of the fuel such as ethanol does in gas.... but its not supposed to.
the dye was put in the fuel for a reason and if it magically turns clear after putting it into a tank, the government could be missing out on lots of tax dollars... im pretty sure enough testing has been done on it because the govenment would never allow a dye of this "disappearing" type to diminish the amount of taxes they collect. NOT from us boaters, but from all the cars, pickups and trucks that legally need to use clear "taxed" fuel.

 

[JamesG161]

in my opinion formed from my experience, dyed diesel bleaching out from the uv rays of the sun is highly unlikely.

I agree.

But the older dye (26/27) was not chemically stable and was meant to be in an approved tank to be checked by USCG or others.

The newer EPA choice (164) looks more stable and uses less of it to color.

Had heard from someone that diesel never was 'bad', may have contaminates that need to be removed, but would burn regardless.

SO TRUE!

The best protection is to get a water/solids fuel filter. I had a tank full of crap, when it was delivered. The boat took 8' seas on that trip, stirring up all. My filter plugged twice and now going full empty (for a reason ) nothing in the filter. That filter would have picked up the deposit you found. My 10 micron filter will filter out cigarette smoke.:dance:

Jim...

PS:Fuel filter are cheap.

 

[Steve Dion]

Are you sure that the fuel was red when it was put in the tanK? There are no requirements to put red dye in the fuel if road taxes are paid.

Just a thought!

 

[cbourne200]

Bought fuel at a marina. Transferred some amount to internal tank 4-5 months ago. Transfer was to pour from can into clear quart jar, then into internal. Previous fuel in internal tank. Approx 4 gals in internal now. Racor fuel/water separator has 2 Mic filter. Have had problems with fuel contamination - filters clogging - ever since I bought boat 4 yrs ago. Wife getting paranoid every time we go out that she'll get 'stranded' out on water.

So decided to abandon internal, set up external tank. Abandoned fuel in internal tank. Transferred 2 gal from Jerry can via clear quart jar - that's when I noticed color missing. Jerry can sat in cabin of O'Day 272 for 4 months. Light is only thing I could think of since can is Briggs/Stratton can marked as diesel and yellow in color.

Replaced all filters. Rancor was only filter clogged this time.

Just seems odd that color disappeared.

 

[JamesG161]

Racor fuel/water separator has 2 Mic filter. Have had problems with fuel contamination - filters clogging

IMHO the 2 micron is too small!:wow:

You can filter out typhus bacteria, blood platelets, cholera from water, etc. with 2 microns. Backpackers use 2 micron filters to drink lake or stream water as a purifier without chlorine tablets.

10 micron will filter out non-dissolved water too and bacteria/algae. Plus they are cheaper.
You can buy anti-bacteria agents and water dispersers to burn in the engine without problems too. Water in small quantities helps the engine efficiency ( no one yell on this point ) and algae burns nicely (they are making bio-diesel with algae).

If you ever sail in 4-6 foot seas, believe me my stomach and diesel tanks are well stirred.

You could put 2 filters in parallel and switch to the back up, on fuel filter plugging.

The only thing you are protecting is the fuel injectors. Check their opening diameter.

Fair winds so no diesel consumption needed.......
Jim...

PS: If 10 microns filters the white in cigarette smoke, anything smaller will surely pass through the injectors. If my 10's were plugging I would use 30's until the problem left.

 

[centerline]

You can buy anti-bacteria agents and water dispersers to burn in the engine without problems too. Water in small quantities helps the engine efficiency

and algae burns nicely (they are making bio-diesel with algae).

The only thing you are protecting is the fuel injectors. Check their opening diameter.
[/QUOTE)

I gotta disagree on a couple points...

You can buy products to allow the harmful contaminates to pass thru the filters, but the problem is, if you dont burn ALL the contaminated fuel before parking the boat, the contaminates can seperate out while the fuel sets in the pump, lines and injectors within a week or two and raise havoc..

Short term, Water can help the efficiency of the power produced by the engine, but at a cost.
In the long run, Its harmful to the combustion chamber, and if there is a bit too much water, it will be harmfull immediatley. It is ALWAYS harmful to the pump and the injectors

Dead algea as well as live algea is a contaminate, and like all contaminates, it will plug filters unless its processed and coverted, or removed...

The entire system needs to be protected from water and algea..and not just by additives that are added after the water and algea get in.

 

[Capt jgw]

Could be they just didn't put enough dye in it. It is done by the delivery company, not the refinery. They actually put the dye in with the fuel in the truck. I've seen them do it. The truck may be delivering to a gas station or trucking company that pays road tax, so no red dye. Then they go to a marina or large boat (that was me), no road tax so that fuel must be dyed. They do it on the truck.

 

[JamesG161]

You can buy products to allow the harmful contaminates to pass thru the filters, but the problem is, if you dont burn ALL the contaminated fuel before parking the boat

I don't disagree with anything you pointed out.

If you buy diesel for marine use from a reputable source, then he puts in Algaecide in his tanks.

I was kind of joking about burning algae, but trying to show that the diesel engine can burn just about anything including peanut butter if you can get to flow. The addition of algaecide to you fuel tank, kill/stop algae growth. Then it should filter out.

Most people don't understand that there is water actually dissolved in the fuel, all of the time. I have done the cold/hot potential condensation here on the gulf coast. Allowing for reevaporation, it is minor water that can be dispersed (most likely none) and not sit in the bottom of tank.

I won't discount that way up near Santa the temperature swings might produce more.

My whole point...

Filter your fuel and with some newer centrifugal filters, Racor being one brand, water is separated if it is NOT dissolved.

LOL I am not suggesting adding water to improve diesel engine efficiency, but only that the truth is ... a little is not a problem. Remember water is made in the engine from combustion.

Jim...

PS:If dissolved water is a contaminate, everybody has a problem then.

 

[CATBOAT WILLY]

What you saw in the bottom of the diesel tank (jerry can) is not an unusual phenomena.
Certain red dye will settle out if you let it sit long time undisturbed. My guess is that you did not stir the container for several weeks, left it undisturbed and then went to use it. We were asked this question on several occasions as owners would find the red dye at the bottom of their tanks and think it was a bacteria. No worries.....keep calm and just use it.

 

[centerline]

I don't disagree with anything you pointed out.

If you buy diesel for marine use from a reputable source, then he puts in Algaecide in his tanks.

I was kind of joking about burning algae, but trying to show that the diesel engine can burn just about anything including peanut butter if you can get to flow. The addition of algaecide to you fuel tank, kill/stop algae growth. Then it should filter out.

Most people don't understand that there is water actually dissolved in the fuel, all of the time. I have done the cold/hot potential condensation here on the gulf coast. Allowing for reevaporation, it is minor water that can be dispersed (most likely none) and not sit in the bottom of tank.

LOL I am not suggesting adding water to improve diesel engine efficiency, but only that the truth is ... a little is not a problem. Remember water is made in the engine from combustion.

If dissolved water is a contaminate, everybody has a problem then.

I know well enough that you have a grasp of the situation but some of the people who are using this site to learn from will not know, so, in my opinion, but without trying to nitpic, things should be clarified.
and not to extremes just to make a point...

and sometimes its hard to get right the first time, so collectively, we all can help each other learn....

an algeacide prevents the algea from starting/growing/living, but if you have an already contaminated system, it needs to be manually cleaned out to insure the filters wont continue to clog as dead algea wont pass thru the filters so it can be burnt and exhausted....

not all diesel engines will burn just anything... some of the older diesels were designed to pass heavier liquids thru their pumps and injectors, but even then it had to be combustible under reasonable compression. im not sure peanut butter qualifies, unless the oil content is extremely high
the modern systems need clean fuel to allow the best chance for maximum dependability... and ultimately, that is what we all seek. we may be under powered, gas driven or electric, or maybe even a fuel burning hog, but it has to be dependable when its wanted. longevity is also a good thing, but taken in concept, dependability is most important.

diesel along with many other petroleum products are indeed hydroscopic, which means they have the ability to absorb water... and in some products this property is used to advantage, but this is not a good thing for our oils and fuels.
and yes, water vapor IS created from clean, dry fuel when the combustion process takes place, but it is immediately expelled from the engine.

the water is not supposed to be in there when its injected, but the water vapor that is created is due to the destruction and reforming of molecules as the atoms are disturbed by the combustion process... the atoms are NOT destroyed, just rearranged and turned into water vapor and other exhaust particulates..

a "little water in the fuel" is a relative term... a cup of water in a 100 gallon tank could be considered a little water by some people, but it can still stop the engine from running.

but that same amount absorbed into the fuel could pass thru the filter and be burnt with the fuel, but it should all be used while the moisture is still in suspension....

....because the down side is, as the water laden fuel has passed thru the filter and is now throughout the system, it can and will cause damage over time to the entire system. it can settle out as it sets in the pump and rust it internally, or a droplet being pumped out to an injector can actually blow the tip off of the injector, which then can allow more water into cylinder and cause damage to the piston, that is if the injector tip hasnt already gotten stuck in a valve and bent or broke something....

myself, I consider an ounce or less of water to 100 gallons of fuel, in the tank, to be a little water, and any more than that or if seen elsewhere in the system, is a serious threat to the dependable operation of my engine.

Water, dissolved or standing, in fuel is a potential problem for anybody that has it, depending on how much and what they do about it...

 

[JamesG161]

I know well enough that you have a grasp of the situation but some of the people who are using this site to learn from will not know, so, in my opinion, but without trying to nitpic, things should be clarified.
and not to extremes just to make a point...

and sometimes its hard to get right the first time, so collectively, we all can help each other learn....

Of course!

My peanut butter was not a joke fuel, but too impractical and expensive.:stirthepot:

Back to water worries....

I attached a picture of 3 bottles of diesel fuel that all have water. Which one cannot be handled by a good fuel/water separating filter? Answer is in PS.

BTW a few sailor, engineering friends, which includes me, were going to make a fortune with a device to dry incoming vent air to a diesel tank, but easy retrofit was a big downfall.

My humble calculations for typical high humidity and temperature cycles in Gulf Coast areas and 50% level in my static fuel tank yielded 1 tablespoon of water at worst and nothing at normal (for condensation). BTW the worst times are spring/fall when there are large changes in dew points. Fill you tanks to minimize your worries.

Minimum air in tank, minimum potential condensed water!

A little water will be handled by a good fuel filter and your modern diesel engine.

Hoping all diesel stays, clean, red and little water....

Jim...

PS: The answer is the right most bottle in picture.

 

[cbourne200]

Bought boat in 2012. Saw Groco canister, but did not think it contained filter element. Unaware that diesel was so susceptible to water. No shutoff valve, so spilled fuel each time I checked Groco.

Replaced Groco with Racor, installed shutoff valve.

Installed new deck fill cap.

Replaced 2 filters on Westerbeke 10-2 at least twice.

Continued to have 'fuel starvation' problems, whether from clogged filters or water in fuel. After each fuel/engine problem, would drain approx 4" fuel from Racor into 12 oz water bottle. Sometimes would find little water contamination, but never as much as Jim's second picture. Would NOT have suspected enough to have problems.

Boat is 1987. Westerbeke 10-2 rebuilt and no idea of vintage. Suspect tank never cleaned, hoses never replaced.

Abandoned internal tank/all hoses. Now have 6 gal portable tank with all new hoses. Eliminates dirty tank, old hoses, deck fill to allow water to get into tank.

Hope this corrects problem and we can enjoy boat again.