With the season drawing to a conclusion for many of us, it's time to think about boat maintenance and purchases over the coming months. Inboards and outboards notwithstanding, the engine that drives your boat is its sails. How good are they? Is shape important to you or do you just want the boat to move? Do you regularly have a sailmaker or loft inspect, clean, or repair, your sails? Or do you do it yourself? Or is it time to think about replacements? If it's time for replacements, the first decision is whether to buy new or used from a broker or an individual seller. If you spring for new ones, what type of sailcloth do you prefer -- Dacron, mylar, or some combo of the newest high tech materials? How do you compare them? And what about used sails? Where do you shop to find them? Are they really a bargain? Are they worth it? Tell us about the past, present, and future, of your sails and then take the quick quiz on the homepage. (Discussion and quiz by Warren Milberg)
- Status
Sails
I've bought both new and used sails. I bought a new main from North because I wanted to be sure of the measurements and the sail had to be modified from specs in order to fit above my bimini. NOrth did a great job. I've also bought some used headsails, from this site and Bacons in Annapolis, and feel they were great bargains. As long as you know what you want, know your measurements precisely, and know what you want to spend, used sails can be a bargain for a cruiser like me.
I've bought both new and used sails. I bought a new main from North because I wanted to be sure of the measurements and the sail had to be modified from specs in order to fit above my bimini. NOrth did a great job. I've also bought some used headsails, from this site and Bacons in Annapolis, and feel they were great bargains. As long as you know what you want, know your measurements precisely, and know what you want to spend, used sails can be a bargain for a cruiser like me.
Lucky so far
One of the selling points of my 1984 30 was that the sails had been replaced. It was one less thing for me to worry about - since I did replace my sails on my 1978 25 before I sold her. In that case I went with a Hood Furler to replace my luff wire furler and had Doyle sails measure and make my new ones. What a difference! Wow! On my 30, the sails were made by Shore, and are Dacron. They were MUCH lighter than the original Neil Prydes so are a LOT easier to handle. The 150 Genny was showing some wear along the luff - so I had a new UV cloth sown on. This repaired the wear, and I've enjoyed my sails for 5 years now. I am more of a cruiser than a racer - so I won't replace them until they are obviously too worn to hold their shapes anymore. Then I will probably have Doyle make me some new ones. His reccommendation on material is what I will go with. Bill on STARGAZER
One of the selling points of my 1984 30 was that the sails had been replaced. It was one less thing for me to worry about - since I did replace my sails on my 1978 25 before I sold her. In that case I went with a Hood Furler to replace my luff wire furler and had Doyle sails measure and make my new ones. What a difference! Wow! On my 30, the sails were made by Shore, and are Dacron. They were MUCH lighter than the original Neil Prydes so are a LOT easier to handle. The 150 Genny was showing some wear along the luff - so I had a new UV cloth sown on. This repaired the wear, and I've enjoyed my sails for 5 years now. I am more of a cruiser than a racer - so I won't replace them until they are obviously too worn to hold their shapes anymore. Then I will probably have Doyle make me some new ones. His reccommendation on material is what I will go with. Bill on STARGAZER
Torn on what to do
Our sails are ancient, we are cruise virtually 100% of the time (1 race/year)so don't need or want anything high tech. I would love a new suit of sails. Ours are the originals, circa 1978. If we were flush with cash (come on lottery!) or had fewer other priorities then it would be no issue. I have never investigated the used sail marketplace. Living in Canada we have a limited supply (as far as I know) Because Bacon & Assoc. etc are in the US there are some additional challenges with duties etc. Anyone from Canada have experience buying from Bacon & Assoc. (or others) and shipping etc to Canada? Cheers David
Our sails are ancient, we are cruise virtually 100% of the time (1 race/year)so don't need or want anything high tech. I would love a new suit of sails. Ours are the originals, circa 1978. If we were flush with cash (come on lottery!) or had fewer other priorities then it would be no issue. I have never investigated the used sail marketplace. Living in Canada we have a limited supply (as far as I know) Because Bacon & Assoc. etc are in the US there are some additional challenges with duties etc. Anyone from Canada have experience buying from Bacon & Assoc. (or others) and shipping etc to Canada? Cheers David
Just replaced originals w/new
Made a little money in the stock market this past spring, and decided to treat myself to new sails. After looking at the used market and the internet houses selling new sails, I decided to go with a local guy. He cost more (about a third more) than the internet places, but he came out to my boat, examined the placement of my winches and blocks, measured the spars and designed sails specifically for my setup. When the sails were done, he came back out and bent them on. The old sails were the originals ('79) and were free of tears, but were completely blown out of shape. Now, the boat points higher and sails much better in light winds. I am a happy camper.
Made a little money in the stock market this past spring, and decided to treat myself to new sails. After looking at the used market and the internet houses selling new sails, I decided to go with a local guy. He cost more (about a third more) than the internet places, but he came out to my boat, examined the placement of my winches and blocks, measured the spars and designed sails specifically for my setup. When the sails were done, he came back out and bent them on. The old sails were the originals ('79) and were free of tears, but were completely blown out of shape. Now, the boat points higher and sails much better in light winds. I am a happy camper.
Boat Dollars for Sails
I know how hard it is to spring for new sails since there are so many other things to spend boat units on. But, of the six boats I owned, two got new sails and the boats were transformed. The last set I got are good quality high thread count Dacron. I toyed with composites, but the sailmaker and a friend's experience changed me back to Dacron. I race only a half dozen times a year. My friend has logged two years and 20,000 miles starting with a 'cruising composite' fabric. He reports it was a poor choice and they are not holding up. FWIW, Rick D.
I know how hard it is to spring for new sails since there are so many other things to spend boat units on. But, of the six boats I owned, two got new sails and the boats were transformed. The last set I got are good quality high thread count Dacron. I toyed with composites, but the sailmaker and a friend's experience changed me back to Dacron. I race only a half dozen times a year. My friend has logged two years and 20,000 miles starting with a 'cruising composite' fabric. He reports it was a poor choice and they are not holding up. FWIW, Rick D.
New Sails
I don't see any value in replacing old sails with used sails under any circumstance other than an emergency. When it comes time to replace sails for primary use, I figure that a custom made sail by a good sailmaker is the only choice, even if it is just a dacron sail made for cruising or day sailing (which is what we bought last winter for our mainsail and genoa). OTOH, there is nothing wrong with living within a budget by obtaining some back-up and secondary-use sails in the used market. We have an old spinnaker that came with the boat, but we have no rigging for a spinnaker. If I add spinnaker rigging to the boat, I will buy a new spinnaker.
I don't see any value in replacing old sails with used sails under any circumstance other than an emergency. When it comes time to replace sails for primary use, I figure that a custom made sail by a good sailmaker is the only choice, even if it is just a dacron sail made for cruising or day sailing (which is what we bought last winter for our mainsail and genoa). OTOH, there is nothing wrong with living within a budget by obtaining some back-up and secondary-use sails in the used market. We have an old spinnaker that came with the boat, but we have no rigging for a spinnaker. If I add spinnaker rigging to the boat, I will buy a new spinnaker.
For Scott
I agree that buying really old, used sails may not be a good idea for most sailors. Yet with a little care, you can do well. Last year, for example, I bought a 320 sq ft, "used" Dacron, 6.5 oz,150 furling genoa, with Sunbrella UV protection, foam luff, and foot and leech lines for $600. This sail had been "used" twice by the PO, who was unlucky enough to have his boat sink. Sail was like new and would have cost over $1575 if I bought it new. This is a great sail at a great price. There are some bargains out there...
I agree that buying really old, used sails may not be a good idea for most sailors. Yet with a little care, you can do well. Last year, for example, I bought a 320 sq ft, "used" Dacron, 6.5 oz,150 furling genoa, with Sunbrella UV protection, foam luff, and foot and leech lines for $600. This sail had been "used" twice by the PO, who was unlucky enough to have his boat sink. Sail was like new and would have cost over $1575 if I bought it new. This is a great sail at a great price. There are some bargains out there...
Sails for the Sailor
I use North Sails Loft in Vermillon Ohio and they are the best! I have a black technora main sail, a 135 dacron head sail and a 165 Mylar Genoa. We have a bi-yearly check and repair for our sails more than 5 or 6 years old. I like North Sails Loft because they are reliable, I know they do a good job and will call me with an estimate if the cost is more than what was quoted.
I use North Sails Loft in Vermillon Ohio and they are the best! I have a black technora main sail, a 135 dacron head sail and a 165 Mylar Genoa. We have a bi-yearly check and repair for our sails more than 5 or 6 years old. I like North Sails Loft because they are reliable, I know they do a good job and will call me with an estimate if the cost is more than what was quoted.
New or Used? A good question for this time of yea
I need newer sails for my boat as the existing ones are blown out. The boat heels and drifts more as soon as the wind goes above 10 kts. The sails can not be flattened. New sails are nice but expensive butI have not been able to find good used sails to fit my O'Day 272. At least not yet. I think that I will stay with Dacron as my sailing is mostly cruising but I do like to race and want to do well. Dacron will likely fill my needs and wants. With new sails I can also go to full battens in the main and a better reefing system for the roller furling gear on the jib. I'm still looking at used but would like to see the sails before buying. I am nervious buying based on a Internet description.
I need newer sails for my boat as the existing ones are blown out. The boat heels and drifts more as soon as the wind goes above 10 kts. The sails can not be flattened. New sails are nice but expensive butI have not been able to find good used sails to fit my O'Day 272. At least not yet. I think that I will stay with Dacron as my sailing is mostly cruising but I do like to race and want to do well. Dacron will likely fill my needs and wants. With new sails I can also go to full battens in the main and a better reefing system for the roller furling gear on the jib. I'm still looking at used but would like to see the sails before buying. I am nervious buying based on a Internet description.
New sails come second ...
I have a Sail boat. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but ... Replacing sails that are "only" 25+ years old? ... that sounds like a Motor boat. Befana's engine is 30 years old, her sails are new. Standing rigging first (unless you know for a fact that the wire is less than 5 years old), then sails. 3 new sails in the last 3 years. A roller Genoa from North (still not right after two trips back to the loft), a new Main from Quantum (Radial Cut Dacron/Mylar, big roach, top two battens full length) possibly the best main I've ever had. And a big Assymetric Spinnaker from Quantum (also a joy to have on the boat). Oldest sail on the boat is a 97' North blade that was perfect for SF Bay summer "breezes".
Quantum is like North -used to be-. The local North loft dosen't build the sail, they take the order and the sail gets built "at the factory"... My North genny has the wrong twist, there is no sheet lead that will get the luff tells to break evenly. The entry is too flat for a heavy boat like the Cat 30. The sail's "groove" is very narrow. I'm going to have the Quantum loft take a look at it and see if it can be saved. I used to be a faithfull North customer, 6 sails in 9 years, now I've got two new Quantums in the last 3 years. I also had good luck with "The Sail Warehouse", I got a Main and 123% Lapper for a Santana 22 from them. Only sailed the boat for a couple of years so I can't say how the sails would look as the aged, but they were darn fast for the price when new. Randy
I have a Sail boat. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but ... Replacing sails that are "only" 25+ years old? ... that sounds like a Motor boat. Befana's engine is 30 years old, her sails are new. Standing rigging first (unless you know for a fact that the wire is less than 5 years old), then sails. 3 new sails in the last 3 years. A roller Genoa from North (still not right after two trips back to the loft), a new Main from Quantum (Radial Cut Dacron/Mylar, big roach, top two battens full length) possibly the best main I've ever had. And a big Assymetric Spinnaker from Quantum (also a joy to have on the boat). Oldest sail on the boat is a 97' North blade that was perfect for SF Bay summer "breezes".
Quantum is like North -used to be-. The local North loft dosen't build the sail, they take the order and the sail gets built "at the factory"... My North genny has the wrong twist, there is no sheet lead that will get the luff tells to break evenly. The entry is too flat for a heavy boat like the Cat 30. The sail's "groove" is very narrow. I'm going to have the Quantum loft take a look at it and see if it can be saved. I used to be a faithfull North customer, 6 sails in 9 years, now I've got two new Quantums in the last 3 years. I also had good luck with "The Sail Warehouse", I got a Main and 123% Lapper for a Santana 22 from them. Only sailed the boat for a couple of years so I can't say how the sails would look as the aged, but they were darn fast for the price when new. Randybuy new(er) sails
I had a 1981 hunter with original sails went all out bought roller furling for the jib and new (Doyle) sails. The boat sailed like a dream. much faster, handled better (less weather helm) and the roller furling added soooo much to my enjoyment. So for what it is worth imho new sails are worth the cost.
I had a 1981 hunter with original sails went all out bought roller furling for the jib and new (Doyle) sails. The boat sailed like a dream. much faster, handled better (less weather helm) and the roller furling added soooo much to my enjoyment. So for what it is worth imho new sails are worth the cost.
Sails...care and feeding
I have a Seafarer 22 which I bought very slightly used 20+ years ago. The boat came with a lapper which I still occasionally use. It's very difficult to shape up however, which is typical of old sails, even well maintained ones. I bought a new suit of sails for the boat 5-6 years back from Doyle and have been very satisfied with them. The mylar racing 150 is practically new (I don't race my boat anymore). My dacron main is still in good shape. I think the secret with sails is to fold them neatly, take the strain off halyards and outhauls when you put them away, and don't let them flog themselves to death. A corollary to this last is to de-power the boat when necessary with reefs and/or smaller headsails rather than let overstressed sails blow themselves out. If I were buying another boat (which would be used), I'd probably look for one that didn't have all kinds of sails on board. They want to charge you for those and, chances are, they're probably not in good shape anyway. OTOH, I generally hank on a converted blade from a Merit 25 as my primary headsail. This sail was left out of the sale of my buddy's boat and he gave it to me. The sail was little used and, with a slight reduction in the luff and a foot reshaping ($75), the sail works great for me! I sheet it inboard of the shrouds and it's almost self-tacking--great for the single handed sailing I generally do. Moral: take care of your sails! They're expensive and, if you're like me, you want them to last. Be very selective with used sails. You can get a good one if you're lucky, but, IMHO, they generally don't age well under the care and feeding of most owners.
I have a Seafarer 22 which I bought very slightly used 20+ years ago. The boat came with a lapper which I still occasionally use. It's very difficult to shape up however, which is typical of old sails, even well maintained ones. I bought a new suit of sails for the boat 5-6 years back from Doyle and have been very satisfied with them. The mylar racing 150 is practically new (I don't race my boat anymore). My dacron main is still in good shape. I think the secret with sails is to fold them neatly, take the strain off halyards and outhauls when you put them away, and don't let them flog themselves to death. A corollary to this last is to de-power the boat when necessary with reefs and/or smaller headsails rather than let overstressed sails blow themselves out. If I were buying another boat (which would be used), I'd probably look for one that didn't have all kinds of sails on board. They want to charge you for those and, chances are, they're probably not in good shape anyway. OTOH, I generally hank on a converted blade from a Merit 25 as my primary headsail. This sail was left out of the sale of my buddy's boat and he gave it to me. The sail was little used and, with a slight reduction in the luff and a foot reshaping ($75), the sail works great for me! I sheet it inboard of the shrouds and it's almost self-tacking--great for the single handed sailing I generally do. Moral: take care of your sails! They're expensive and, if you're like me, you want them to last. Be very selective with used sails. You can get a good one if you're lucky, but, IMHO, they generally don't age well under the care and feeding of most owners.
OLD SAILS perform great....
Recently sold my MAC 26 Classic, 1992,with original sails. The BOAT sailed fast, pointed great, and handled well...even though the SAILS were OLD !! I'm thinking its not so much the "SAILS" as the "SAILOR" as to how a BOAT PERFORMs...My New MAC 26X has "like new" sails, and little difference in performance is noticed.
Recently sold my MAC 26 Classic, 1992,with original sails. The BOAT sailed fast, pointed great, and handled well...even though the SAILS were OLD !! I'm thinking its not so much the "SAILS" as the "SAILOR" as to how a BOAT PERFORMs...My New MAC 26X has "like new" sails, and little difference in performance is noticed.
For Charlie and others...
... fearful of buying sails on the internet or site unseen. Most reputable sail brokers, and it should be the same for reputable individual sellers, will allow you to return a sail purchased from them if for any reason you don't like it, it doesn't fit your boat, it was not as advertised, etc. This usually assumes you may have hoisted the sail to check fit, but have not used it (sail must be in the same condition you bought it) and that you pay the return postage... FWIW, all of the used sails I've bought over the years have been in better condition that as advertised....
... fearful of buying sails on the internet or site unseen. Most reputable sail brokers, and it should be the same for reputable individual sellers, will allow you to return a sail purchased from them if for any reason you don't like it, it doesn't fit your boat, it was not as advertised, etc. This usually assumes you may have hoisted the sail to check fit, but have not used it (sail must be in the same condition you bought it) and that you pay the return postage... FWIW, all of the used sails I've bought over the years have been in better condition that as advertised....
Great, good, and not so good
I couldn't have asked for a better 135% genoa that CD division of North Sails made for me. And I was generally satisfied with the cleaning and re-furbishing of the main and 110% jib by Sail Care. But I wish I had pressed the issue of re-cutting the main instead of going along with the recommendation of them adding some kind of adjustment to the main that would somehow make it respond better than having it re-cut to flatten it out. They never told me exactly what they did nor how I was supposed to implement this "adjustment." All I know is there is too much "belly" in the main which causes too much heel when the wind gusts. I am seriously considering having a full-battened main made for my O-26. Besides, the present main has only one lower reefing adjustment.
I couldn't have asked for a better 135% genoa that CD division of North Sails made for me. And I was generally satisfied with the cleaning and re-furbishing of the main and 110% jib by Sail Care. But I wish I had pressed the issue of re-cutting the main instead of going along with the recommendation of them adding some kind of adjustment to the main that would somehow make it respond better than having it re-cut to flatten it out. They never told me exactly what they did nor how I was supposed to implement this "adjustment." All I know is there is too much "belly" in the main which causes too much heel when the wind gusts. I am seriously considering having a full-battened main made for my O-26. Besides, the present main has only one lower reefing adjustment.
Final results
Final results for the Quick Quiz ending October 30, 2005: Thinking about sails for my boat... 61% They are good enough as is 23% I plan to buy new sails 09% I hope the sailmaker can do work magic on them 07% I plan to buy used sails
Final results for the Quick Quiz ending October 30, 2005: Thinking about sails for my boat... 61% They are good enough as is 23% I plan to buy new sails 09% I hope the sailmaker can do work magic on them 07% I plan to buy used sails
- Status