What are the sailing characteristics of...
- Thread starter Brian D
- Start date
- Status
Cutters are VERY different
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
Cutters are VERY different
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
Cutters are VERY different
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
Cutters are VERY different
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
The CE in a true cutter is in front of the mast; a true cutter having the mast at 50% of LOA while most sloops have the mast @ 30% of LOA. So for a true cutter, reefing sequence is 'back to front'. Since the CE is in front of the mast the true cutter wont 'point' as high as a sloop; its best efficiency is at close to high broad reaching, and also because the foretriangle is additionally filled by the staysail. True cutters typically can only tack through 90-100 degrees (true) while fractional sloops can tack though much much less. The advantage of a cutter is the ability to 'shift down' in high winds due to the versatility of sail choice from 3 sails. The staysail when flown 'under' a jib/genoa while beating needs 'special' shaping or it detracts from the forward thrust and its a VERY finicky sail to 'correctly shape'. Since cutters arent usually raced there is very little correct info available on the aerodynamic effects/interaction with the other 2 sails. These are not 'easy' boats to sail correctly (especially to windward) and take a lot of 'prior knowledge' of sail shaping and setting or the performance can be quite dismal. The modern trend is to place the mast more forward (a slutter?!) but that makes for a smaller staysail and thus you minimize the best advantage of the cutter. A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main. Like a cutter the ketch has advantages of 'shifting down' in high wind/wave conditions and are usually reefed down by partly reefing the main, then main all the way down and then sailed only by jib & mizzen, etc. Can incur high rigging (replacement) costs. Both cutters and ketches would be considered 'down wind' boats; but, with the advent of spinnakers, sloops (especially fractional rigged sloops) probably now have the total advantage upwind AND down. Cutters and Ketches best venue is 'trade wind' sailing on long passages.... mostly 'downhill'. Cutters, Ketches and masthead sloops are probably obsolete by modern 'overall performance' standards. The configuration of the masthead sloop (headstay connected to the top of the mast) is based mostly on 'loopholes' of the old racing 'ratings' rules (- a 'rule beater'); rules that are no longer 'current'. So, owning a Lancer 27 frac. rig, depending mostly on 'shifting the gears' up/down primarily by reefing the main, being able to sail solely (and well) on main alone; plus, having the ability to bend the mast to 'flatten', etc. you probably are sailing a true 'modern' and optimized design already inbuilt with more flexibility / adaptability than what you get with an old-fashioned cutter or ketch or even mast-headed sloop.
Well spoken Rich...
I actually understood everything you said. Makes perfect sense to me, but then again, I was clueless to begin with, and I'm not even blond.
I guess the one thing that catches my eye is the aesthetic of the multi-mast and multi-sail of cutters and ketchs. I just like the looks of a boat when she has four sail aloft.
I actually understood everything you said. Makes perfect sense to me, but then again, I was clueless to begin with, and I'm not even blond.
I guess the one thing that catches my eye is the aesthetic of the multi-mast and multi-sail of cutters and ketchs. I just like the looks of a boat when she has four sail aloft.
- Jan 22, 2008
- 519
The only other thing I would add to the excellent
treatise that RichH gave, is that the older style cutter or ketch sail plan, makes for a nicely balanced boat that holds her track well on a lashed tiller if the sails are properly balanced. This makes for long easy passages without having to man the helm constantly. It is great for single handers, and blue water passage makers, less adapted for club racing or inland lakes.
treatise that RichH gave, is that the older style cutter or ketch sail plan, makes for a nicely balanced boat that holds her track well on a lashed tiller if the sails are properly balanced. This makes for long easy passages without having to man the helm constantly. It is great for single handers, and blue water passage makers, less adapted for club racing or inland lakes.
Sloops are for racing, ketch is for cruising
If you wanna race, get a sloop, if you want to cruise get a Ketch. Actually, on a long haul race, I'm not so sure that a sloop will always beat a ketch. Given the different sail plans available to a ketch and the limited sail plans of a sloop, the ketch may just have the advantage. I might be wrong, I'm not a designer, but isnt windward ability largely dependant on keel shape also? Most sloop people pass over all of the options you have available to a ketch during all differing weather and sea conditions as if they are not really important. Its not just the better balancing, its also that when the weather kicks up, you just drop the main and sail jib and jigger(jib and mizzen). No reefing required. You can sail balanced, fairly vertical and still maintaing hull speed. This is a major plus. This makes life easier for an older couple or a shorthanded crew. Rich states " A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main." Mizzen being in the wind shadow? Ever think of dropping the mizzen while beating.? Its obvious when that happens. Also I'm not sure where he gets the mostly downwind sailing thing. I read somewhere that John Cherubini favored the ketch rig as many other designers have. As for Brian, I would strongly recommend a ketch if you plan on ocean sailing, even if only overnight trips. I have sailed several overnight passages on sloops and 1 long trip on my ketch. There is no comparison. We sailed for several days in 30 to 35 K winds and with just the jib and mizzen , we maintained hull speed and hardly heeled over. When the wind kicked up, it was much easier for one man to drop and secure the main than to reef it. Extra work? A mizzen is fairly small it requires one halyard and one sheet and is usually centered most of the time and requires little to no attention Tony B
If you wanna race, get a sloop, if you want to cruise get a Ketch. Actually, on a long haul race, I'm not so sure that a sloop will always beat a ketch. Given the different sail plans available to a ketch and the limited sail plans of a sloop, the ketch may just have the advantage. I might be wrong, I'm not a designer, but isnt windward ability largely dependant on keel shape also? Most sloop people pass over all of the options you have available to a ketch during all differing weather and sea conditions as if they are not really important. Its not just the better balancing, its also that when the weather kicks up, you just drop the main and sail jib and jigger(jib and mizzen). No reefing required. You can sail balanced, fairly vertical and still maintaing hull speed. This is a major plus. This makes life easier for an older couple or a shorthanded crew. Rich states " A ketch is probably most efficient at broad reaching, CE in the mainsail, suffers when beating due to the mizzen being in the wind shadow of the main." Mizzen being in the wind shadow? Ever think of dropping the mizzen while beating.? Its obvious when that happens. Also I'm not sure where he gets the mostly downwind sailing thing. I read somewhere that John Cherubini favored the ketch rig as many other designers have. As for Brian, I would strongly recommend a ketch if you plan on ocean sailing, even if only overnight trips. I have sailed several overnight passages on sloops and 1 long trip on my ketch. There is no comparison. We sailed for several days in 30 to 35 K winds and with just the jib and mizzen , we maintained hull speed and hardly heeled over. When the wind kicked up, it was much easier for one man to drop and secure the main than to reef it. Extra work? A mizzen is fairly small it requires one halyard and one sheet and is usually centered most of the time and requires little to no attention Tony B
Brian D
Brian: Yes, you are correct. I was thinking of my long trip in which it seemed like we were going to windward a good amount of the time. My main point being is that the mizzen requires little attention. When really close hauled, i had to drop the mizzen altogether. Only thing I will add is that the mizzen didnt exactly match the same angle of attack as the main. It seemed like it 'looked' best at a slightly reduced angle. I am new at ketch rigs. I can only relate my own short experiences. You can probably get a whole lot more info from the Cruisers Forum. Tony B
Brian: Yes, you are correct. I was thinking of my long trip in which it seemed like we were going to windward a good amount of the time. My main point being is that the mizzen requires little attention. When really close hauled, i had to drop the mizzen altogether. Only thing I will add is that the mizzen didnt exactly match the same angle of attack as the main. It seemed like it 'looked' best at a slightly reduced angle. I am new at ketch rigs. I can only relate my own short experiences. You can probably get a whole lot more info from the Cruisers Forum. Tony B
Yep, the Mizzen is sometimes at a
different angle than the main. Dropping the Mizzen in moderate air will help eliminate weather helm but reefing the main instead will have the same effect. Are Ketches slow? Not necessarily. My Yawl runs away from longer waterline boats uphill often, especially in rougher stuff. I'm always surprised at that.
different angle than the main. Dropping the Mizzen in moderate air will help eliminate weather helm but reefing the main instead will have the same effect. Are Ketches slow? Not necessarily. My Yawl runs away from longer waterline boats uphill often, especially in rougher stuff. I'm always surprised at that.
- Status