I am looking for some input on what adds value to a boat. I am looking at a 1983 Cat27. The owners has it priced about 1600 above what the NADA shows to be average retail. The boat is very clean in and out and you can tell the owner has loved this boat. He said he replaced all the sails 18 months ago and it shows. He has also replaced some of the cleats, winches, etc, as they needed. Does this increase the value of the boat? My thoughts are that the boat should have sails and cleats and winches just like a car should have tires and belts. Am I looking at this the wrong way? Please help as I would like to make an offer but do not want to insult or offend.
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My $.02. . . . .
Sails and winches are some of the primary "function" items for a sail boat and are in a higher category along with gelcoat, bottom condition, etc. Running rigging, exterior teak, upholstery (unless badly mildewed=leaks) are in the normal wear-tear category IMHO. You didn't say what level of condition you used to estimate & compare the value of this boat to others but it sounds like from your description, it should be worth a bit of a premium over the "average" C27 of that year. Did you get a good survey or is this just getting an idea of an initial offer?
Sails and winches are some of the primary "function" items for a sail boat and are in a higher category along with gelcoat, bottom condition, etc. Running rigging, exterior teak, upholstery (unless badly mildewed=leaks) are in the normal wear-tear category IMHO. You didn't say what level of condition you used to estimate & compare the value of this boat to others but it sounds like from your description, it should be worth a bit of a premium over the "average" C27 of that year. Did you get a good survey or is this just getting an idea of an initial offer?
It's only the asking price
First of all, the boat must be worth consideration, or else you would not be inquiring here. Does the boat have all that you want, or does it need you to put more money in, such as, roller furling, bimini, other amenities that you would not want to do with out? Do you need to spend a lot of money to upgrade to your standard? If NADA says the average boat is worth $1600 less than what he's asking, what percentage of his asking price is the $1600? Sellers always ask more for their items than they are willing to accept. A general rule of thumb, ask 10 % more than you want. When a seller goes down in price, psychologically the buyer thinks they're geting a bargain, even though in reality, the seller is receiving what he actually did anticipate getting. If you want the boat, try to factor what you think he really wants for the boat, then make an offer perhaps 5% - 10% lower. Don't worry about offending him, it's a game. He'll make a counter offer, then you counter back unil you both are either happy or not.
First of all, the boat must be worth consideration, or else you would not be inquiring here. Does the boat have all that you want, or does it need you to put more money in, such as, roller furling, bimini, other amenities that you would not want to do with out? Do you need to spend a lot of money to upgrade to your standard? If NADA says the average boat is worth $1600 less than what he's asking, what percentage of his asking price is the $1600? Sellers always ask more for their items than they are willing to accept. A general rule of thumb, ask 10 % more than you want. When a seller goes down in price, psychologically the buyer thinks they're geting a bargain, even though in reality, the seller is receiving what he actually did anticipate getting. If you want the boat, try to factor what you think he really wants for the boat, then make an offer perhaps 5% - 10% lower. Don't worry about offending him, it's a game. He'll make a counter offer, then you counter back unil you both are either happy or not.
Car tires = boat sails
That's a pretty good comparison, I think. Continuing it, would you pay more for a car with brand-new tires than one with bald ones? Sails have a service life, just as tires do. They get baggy (slows you down) and the stitching starts to come loose, and gradually lose their usefullness. This can happen in a few years - for a cruising boat using the sails every day - or 10 years or more. If the sails are new, and you're going to be mostly weekend sailing, they will last as long as you own the boat, most likely. What's that worth to you? Winches last a LONG time, 20 years or more of properly serviced. New winches are probably (hopefully) self-tailing, whereas the original ones on an older small boat probably weren't. Again, what's that worth to you? Personally, I think the telling phrase in your description of the boat is '...you can tell the owner has loved this boat.' That's worth a LOT, in my opinion. You can have some confidence that the engine oil has been changed regularly, the stuffing box hasn't been overtightented, the batteries have been serviced properly, etc. etc. etc. One other issue based on your location: If you are SURE the boat isn't a hurricane victim, that should count for something. I can't believe an owner - who presumably wants to sell the boat and doesn't have any other offers in hand - would be insulted or offended if you bring an offer of 10% less than asking price, of course contingent on survey with haulout and a sea trial. Good luck! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
That's a pretty good comparison, I think. Continuing it, would you pay more for a car with brand-new tires than one with bald ones? Sails have a service life, just as tires do. They get baggy (slows you down) and the stitching starts to come loose, and gradually lose their usefullness. This can happen in a few years - for a cruising boat using the sails every day - or 10 years or more. If the sails are new, and you're going to be mostly weekend sailing, they will last as long as you own the boat, most likely. What's that worth to you? Winches last a LONG time, 20 years or more of properly serviced. New winches are probably (hopefully) self-tailing, whereas the original ones on an older small boat probably weren't. Again, what's that worth to you? Personally, I think the telling phrase in your description of the boat is '...you can tell the owner has loved this boat.' That's worth a LOT, in my opinion. You can have some confidence that the engine oil has been changed regularly, the stuffing box hasn't been overtightented, the batteries have been serviced properly, etc. etc. etc. One other issue based on your location: If you are SURE the boat isn't a hurricane victim, that should count for something. I can't believe an owner - who presumably wants to sell the boat and doesn't have any other offers in hand - would be insulted or offended if you bring an offer of 10% less than asking price, of course contingent on survey with haulout and a sea trial. Good luck! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Average
I think Average, is the key word here. If an average boat is worth X number of dollars, and this boat is above average, then it's worth more. Average is in the eye of the beholder, so compare it to other boats of this size and age. Also, previous posts are correct in offering less. As you stated, this is the asking price, and will more than likely be subject to some negotiation. The broker has my 28' S2 listed at 16,000 and change, which is average for this boat. I would expect to have to negotiate some on this. So go in with an offer of 10% or a little more less than the asking price. All he can do is say no.
I think Average, is the key word here. If an average boat is worth X number of dollars, and this boat is above average, then it's worth more. Average is in the eye of the beholder, so compare it to other boats of this size and age. Also, previous posts are correct in offering less. As you stated, this is the asking price, and will more than likely be subject to some negotiation. The broker has my 28' S2 listed at 16,000 and change, which is average for this boat. I would expect to have to negotiate some on this. So go in with an offer of 10% or a little more less than the asking price. All he can do is say no.
Having worked as a broker,
I can't ever recall a boat selling at or very near the so-called NADA price. While those listed prices may be helpful in establishing a price range for a certain boat, that is all they really are. A boat sells for what a buyer is willing to pay. IMHO, two of the same type of boat can have very different selling prices depending on condition and equipment. When I bought my current boat, for example, it had OEM sails that were shot. I knew I'd have to replace them and so factored some, but not all, of that cost into my offering price. If the boat had new, or relatively new, sails I would not have been able to do that. On the other hand, if a boat is equipped with a lot of stuff that does not directly affect sailing and is of little value to you, you should make that known to the seller by way of a reduced bid. But in this particular case, new sails and winches are very important and expensive items. You should expect to have to pay at least part of the cost of these items for a well-found boat that gets a good rating by a qualified surveyor. Good luck with this boat. I had a Cat 27 some years ago and found it to be a great boat!
I can't ever recall a boat selling at or very near the so-called NADA price. While those listed prices may be helpful in establishing a price range for a certain boat, that is all they really are. A boat sells for what a buyer is willing to pay. IMHO, two of the same type of boat can have very different selling prices depending on condition and equipment. When I bought my current boat, for example, it had OEM sails that were shot. I knew I'd have to replace them and so factored some, but not all, of that cost into my offering price. If the boat had new, or relatively new, sails I would not have been able to do that. On the other hand, if a boat is equipped with a lot of stuff that does not directly affect sailing and is of little value to you, you should make that known to the seller by way of a reduced bid. But in this particular case, new sails and winches are very important and expensive items. You should expect to have to pay at least part of the cost of these items for a well-found boat that gets a good rating by a qualified surveyor. Good luck with this boat. I had a Cat 27 some years ago and found it to be a great boat!
A oat is worth whatever someone will pay for it.
"Personally, I think the telling phrase in your description of the boat is '...you can tell the owner has loved this boat.' --That's worth a LOT, in my opinion." Yup. "Average" used boat usually means 5+ year old sails and often 10, ready to be cut into hammocks. A boat that is clean, ready to go, doesn't need any updating or work, is way above average condition. And the NADA books are what dealers use to show you they are selling a car (or boat) at a "bargain" price by selling it 'below book'. Ask them to BUY it from you, and they won't pay anywhere near that. Bottom line, if you can't find other boats in better condition for a cheaper price--this one is probably worth what the guy is charging. If you think you can do better, make him an offer. He might take it.
"Personally, I think the telling phrase in your description of the boat is '...you can tell the owner has loved this boat.' --That's worth a LOT, in my opinion." Yup. "Average" used boat usually means 5+ year old sails and often 10, ready to be cut into hammocks. A boat that is clean, ready to go, doesn't need any updating or work, is way above average condition. And the NADA books are what dealers use to show you they are selling a car (or boat) at a "bargain" price by selling it 'below book'. Ask them to BUY it from you, and they won't pay anywhere near that. Bottom line, if you can't find other boats in better condition for a cheaper price--this one is probably worth what the guy is charging. If you think you can do better, make him an offer. He might take it.
value
Hello, New sails definitely increase the value of the boat. How much does a set of tires cost for a car? For most cars, a set will run you $500 to $800. A decent set of sails can be 10 times that. Winches add less value. Are they really nice, like a big set of self tailer's? That would add some value over older basic single speed winches. IMHO, other things that add value are good electronics, updated interior (have you prices new cushions lately?), and a boat that is clean, dry, and smells good. Good luck, Barry
Hello, New sails definitely increase the value of the boat. How much does a set of tires cost for a car? For most cars, a set will run you $500 to $800. A decent set of sails can be 10 times that. Winches add less value. Are they really nice, like a big set of self tailer's? That would add some value over older basic single speed winches. IMHO, other things that add value are good electronics, updated interior (have you prices new cushions lately?), and a boat that is clean, dry, and smells good. Good luck, Barry
Richard, My opinion is free and that 'is how much
it is worth. If the winches, cleats, and sails were absent then the cost of replacing them with used like items gives you an idea of the value i=of those items. If it has a gold plated bath tub and you don't want one then that item is worthless to you. I always go to the question "could you get this nice a boat that pleases you somewhere else for this price or less". I know what it would cost to duplicate my boat and I know that I can not sell it for anything near that price.
it is worth. If the winches, cleats, and sails were absent then the cost of replacing them with used like items gives you an idea of the value i=of those items. If it has a gold plated bath tub and you don't want one then that item is worthless to you. I always go to the question "could you get this nice a boat that pleases you somewhere else for this price or less". I know what it would cost to duplicate my boat and I know that I can not sell it for anything near that price.
Added Value
Have the boat surveyed and go from there. $1600 is not that much if everything is good. I spent $4,000 having all my rigging replaced on a 30 year old 27' boat just to be on the safe side.
Have the boat surveyed and go from there. $1600 is not that much if everything is good. I spent $4,000 having all my rigging replaced on a 30 year old 27' boat just to be on the safe side.
Everything Adds Up
When purchasing our boat we took inventory of all accessories, upgrades and additional usable equipment on board. Then we researched value of all items in consideration of the purchase price. We found almost ten thousand dollars worth of upgrades, equipment and accessories. That helped us weight the total purchase price. Good Luck!
When purchasing our boat we took inventory of all accessories, upgrades and additional usable equipment on board. Then we researched value of all items in consideration of the purchase price. We found almost ten thousand dollars worth of upgrades, equipment and accessories. That helped us weight the total purchase price. Good Luck!
Thank everyone
Thank you everyone for the input. You have helped clear up my concerns. I am going to figure an offer and see what happens from there.
Thank you everyone for the input. You have helped clear up my concerns. I am going to figure an offer and see what happens from there.
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