West Marine Closing Canadian Stores

Maine Sail · Mar 25, 2015

dparilla said:
Even their port supply side is lagging. Their "wholesale" prices are what defender charges retail. I asked about a special order part last week and Port Supply said it would take 6 weeks to get it. Defender said I would have it by this Friday, and 70 bucks cheaper too.

I agree... They are simply not competitive. They do deliver, and I do still order, but the pricing is way out of line with my other wholesalers. My biggest complaint however is their seemingly never ending internal Port Supply system glitches. My rep will correct my pricing level and six months later it revers back to a different level even if I hit my $$ amount. This seemingly never ends so it is hard to predict where my pricing will be when I walk in the door?

It tends to make me not want to walk in the door because I never know how long it will take to get it straightened out or if the "glitch" has showed back up... I know exactly where I am with Defender, Hamilton, CWR etc. etc... My store manger is great but his hands are tied and they are turning his store into a mini REI....

The one thing I have noticed in our local store is that with nearly half the store now being filled by clothes, dog leashes, dog life jackets , key chains, bracelets and sunglasses, the exact same stuff as the Eastern Mountain Sports 100' away, the customers are just no longer in the store, that I see.

Hamilton Marine, less than 3/4 mile away, is PACKED. I waited in LINE yesterday, because, guess what, they actually sell boat parts not REI, LL Bean or EMS items....

Oh and that was a line to check out with TWO REGISTERS OPEN!!! Perhaps the board of directors should have hired Wayne Hamilton to run West Marine....

It is called West Marine but perhaps it should be called Marine-Fashion West......

I hope I am wrong but I don't see WM surviving this CEO because guess what WE ALREADY HAVE an REI, LL BEAN and Eastern Mountain Sports!

Sailm8 · Mar 25, 2015

I think we are loosing sight of the fact we are a niche market. The products we buy like blocks, line, even electronics are provided by relatively few manufacturers. It's no where near an industry like auto accessories. A WM needs to carry inventory and that is expensive. Imagine what the private airplane market must be like. There are fewer private planes then boats and I would guess prices are even more outrageous and manufacturers fewer.

Also add that we are an older group not given to impulse buying. We are not seeing younger people getting into sailing for a variety of reasons like we used to, and this just makes the market smaller.

And we are cheap. Someone said, "A sailor will drill a hole in a nickel rather than spend a dime for a washer".

Scott T-Bird · Mar 25, 2015

That pretty much sums it up ...

ISABELLA5 said:
The WM clothing and marine supply store here in Panama City recently relocated to a larger facility in order to triple or more the clothing floorspace.

People still go to stores to buy clothes. Shemandr also nailed it. People go to stores to be entertained and eat food. Cabela's thrives by selling clothes, food, dog toys, and turning their large stores into a tourist attraction. I would bet that their financial success does not depend on selling outdoors hardware like camping gear or hunting and fishing gear, but they can display a lot of stuff because the soft goods are flying off the shelve (and don't require any expertise in selling).

WM stores have none of that "charm". They have less charm than an Ace Hardware or True Value and their shelves aren't nearly as well stocked. But the customers are the reason for it. You have to be insane to run a business that doesn't focus on the reality of what customers buy. They may come in to scout out a winch handle or a fiddle block, but they pick up the Sperry Topsiders before heading to the cash register, after they've wasted the store manager's time for half an hour or more agonizing over whether they want to re-build their traveler assembly or change out the vang. In the end, they'll buy the parts on-line.

I used to go to a store to "shop" for windsurfing gear. I would spend a little time with the store manager/owner, talking about the pros and cons of the gear he sells vs some other gear (that he doesn't carry). I'm looking at gear that costs anywhere from $600 for a sail to $1200 for a board, with the back of my mind saying to keep my money in my wallet. Yeah, I can be one of those customers with alligator arms, taking up the managers valuable time.

All the while, kids are walking in and out of the store going to the shelves and picking out skate boards with cool graphics and filing past the cash registers (manned by kids) laying out $50 to $100 for a board, and probably buying some cool skate-style clothing as well. Nobody needed to help them find what they want.

Guess how the store survives? I'll give you a hint ... they don't sell windsurfing gear anymore.

Chris & Lenore · Mar 25, 2015

YVRguy said:
All complaints about WM aside, they are hardly the first successful US retailer to throw up its arms and leave the Canadian market. Just a few years ago Target set up stores all across the country and have already decided to pull the plug. It seems like a slam dunk to do business up here but Free Trade notwithstanding, there are still a lot of costs and barriers. Regarding WM in general, I think they can still offer huge value. The comparison to Best Buy is an apt one. Big, well stocked stores are a huge help to those of us who actually want to touch and feel something before we buy it. Have a same-day need before shoving off? Online services will aren't going to help. My bet is they will get better at running a competitive online business and leverage their stores to drive that business.

But even Best Buy and Future Shop are changing their sales models (my daughters BF is a store manager at FS). Their stores will be places to go and touch, try and question the merchandise - but you won't be able to walk out the door with any of it. You will essentially be placing an order to their existing online store, who will handle all fulfillment. Now both these places have an efficient, mature online fulfillment service - so they are just leveraging that to reduce cost while still having a physical presence.

Maybe WM will consider that model?

But even then, as Maine Sail pointed out, there are other retailers who seem to get the business. He mentioned Hamilton Marine? We have Brewers Marine in the city of Hamilton who tend to have "standing room only" this time of year. And there are a half dozen others within an hours drive...

Chris

Stu Jackson · Mar 25, 2015

Sailm8 said:
I think we are loosing sight of the fact we are a niche market. The products we buy like blocks, line, even electronics are provided by relatively few manufacturers. It's no where near an industry like auto accessories. A WM needs to carry inventory and that is expensive. Imagine what the private airplane market must be like. There are fewer private planes then boats and I would guess prices are even more outrageous and manufacturers fewer.

Also add that we are an older group not given to impulse buying. We are not seeing younger people getting into sailing for a variety of reasons like we used to, and this just makes the market smaller.

And we are cheap. Someone said, "A sailor will drill a hole in a nickel rather than spend a dime for a washer".

So then, how do you explain the previous success of WM to begin with?

They filled that "niche" and it turned out to be HUGE.

And, yes, things have changed vis-a-vis the internet shopping, but Defender and others do quite well in that regard.

If I was their CEO, I'd have reduced the multiple-stores-within-a-mile-of-another stupidity (we have two within four minutes of each other for NO reason whatsoever, one's BIG and full of stuff, the other, not so much...), and if I wanted REI put in more clothes but kept the stuff that does sell. And i don't know a whole lot of folks who buy fasteners and boat maintenance material online. Sure, many of us learned a long time ago that ACE Hardware has better stuff at better prices for much boaty-stuff, but not all hardware stores have good selections of ss fasteners, do they?

Then I'd make more room for the REI crap by reducing the number of, for example, boat soaps on the shelves. The sheer waste of space for some of their products is staggering.

They have simply f-ed up big time. As Maine Sail said, their CEO has it wrong. Based on his example, why would you open a new supermarket next to an existing one? Or three?

Sometimes the number-crunchers are simply batsh*t crazy.

Benny17441 · Mar 25, 2015

That could be true but why just closing stores in Canada? Are closings in the US to follow?

Stu Jackson · Mar 25, 2015

Benny17441 said:
That could be true but why just closing stores in Canada? Are closings in the US to follow?

Benny, reply #7 on page 1, it'd answer your question.

Ron20324 · Mar 25, 2015

Benny17441 said:
That could be true but why just closing stores in Canada? Are closings in the US to follow?

In Annapolis, the newpaper said West is likely to move to Spa Road if the Crystal Spring developement ever gets approved. No doubt West would close BOTH of the Annapolis stores if that happens. Supposedly the new store will be a mega-store i think they call them.

Kermit · Mar 25, 2015

It's also possible that the CEO knows what he's doing. Maybe he understands what's going on and is making West Marine better because of it. No one, and I mean no one, is in business for any reason other than making a profit.

My son-in-law is a big wig in a healthcare corporation. I've heard him on the phone. Not once have I heard him mention the services they render. It was all leveraging and sales and bottom line. That's what matters.

Scott T-Bird · Mar 25, 2015

Stu Jackson said:
And, yes, things have changed vis-a-vis the internet shopping, but Defender and others do quite well in that regard.

Stu, that isn't even a close comparison. First of all, Defender doesn't provide any stores, except for their warehouse in Connecticut. Have you ever been there? It's an ugly big-box style warehouse facility and I can tell you from personal experience that the service really sucks in person. We stopped in there a few years ago on our way home from Newport. I'd never make a special trip to go there (now that I've seen it), that's for sure. It is basically self-service and when I wanted a part that they actually had to go get "from the back", it took about 45 minutes and then it was the wrong thing, so another 45 minutes because there was nobody around that knew anything.

Their on-line presence isn't exactly attractive, either, in my opinion. I've pretty much stopped even looking at Defender. In contrast, WM has a pretty amazing on-line catalogue and even better source of information ... which is really lacking in most on-line sources.

I'm guessing that WM does pretty well with on-line sales, and they suffer with their stores. But I wouldn't know because I think that the best service comes from Sailboatowners, hands down.

MS mentions Hamiltons, but as far as I know, they don't have stores all over, either. Are they just a local place, like Jamestown Distributors, and Annapolis Marine Supply, etc.? You can't really compare any of those outlets to WM because none of them have stores in so many localities.

But so many customers are hypocrites. They'll go to the WM catalogue for the excellent information, and then call somebody else to search for that nickel off. But most people are like that. We want the best of everything, including the price. And when it comes down to it, most of us are not willing to pay any more than we have to, and that's the bottom line. Well, businesses have to deal with it and they all do in their own way, or they don't stay in business.

Stu Jackson · Mar 25, 2015

Scott T-Bird said:
1 --- Their on-line presence isn't exactly attractive, either, in my opinion. I've pretty much stopped even looking at Defender. In contrast, WM has a pretty amazing on-line catalogue and even better source of information ... which is really lacking in most on-line sources.

2 --- I'm guessing that WM does pretty well with on-line sales, and they suffer with their stores. But I wouldn't know because I think that the best service comes from Sailboatowners, hands down.

1 --= Didn't know that about Defender, but my online experience with them has been fine. I'm too far away to visit!

The West Advisors are wonderful, and, as you know, I quote/link to them often. WM website is pretty good.

2 --- SBO is superb. Gee, wouldn't ya think that WM could take lessons from successful companies, rather than reinventing the wheel and screwing their own customers? But Kermit's right, it's the bottom line, regardless of what the core business is and what is right for the customer. In Kermit's example, F the patients. Truly horrifying.

My link in Reply #7 is long, but covers the bricks & mortar vs online "debate" in great detail and is a fun read.

Kings Gambit · Mar 25, 2015

Scott T-Bird said:
But so many customers are hypocrites. They'll go to the WM catalogue for the excellent information, and then call somebody else to search for that nickel off. But most people are like that. We want the best of everything, including the price. And when it comes down to it, most of us are not willing to pay any more than we have to, and that's the bottom line. Well, businesses have to deal with it and they all do in their own way, or they don't stay in business.

My wife is one of the few people I know who will actually pay MORE to buy from a local specialty store than from a franchise mega-store. I would buy from the local WM IF they ever had what I needed when I went in there. They simply DO NOT STOCK the merchandise that sail boaters need and that sends them to the store to begin with. FOR EXAMPLE--SS metric fasteners. With all of the European boats in the US--WHY, WHY don't they have a reasonably-wide selection of metric fasteners? I live in the LOS ANGELES area! I have to go to Ventura to find a tool shop that also sells a boat part that I need when there are TWO WM stores within 7 mi of my slip? If I have to spend a whole bunch of time on-line searching for a caphead metric SS bolt then why not get the other stuff I need while I'm at it? IF WM wants to be an on-line catalogue-store instead of a local shop with helpful people--then they'd better get prices down, free shipping, etc., and all of that. "I can order it for you and it will be here Tuesday" is NOT the answer I'm looking for. I can frigin' order it myself on-line and get it TOMORROW!!

Alan Gomes · Mar 25, 2015

Kings Gambit said:
My wife is one of the few people I know who will actually pay MORE to buy from a local specialty store than from a franchise mega-store. I would buy from the local WM IF they ever had what I needed when I went in there. They simply DO NOT STOCK the merchandise that sail boaters need and that sends them to the store to begin with. FOR EXAMPLE--SS metric fasteners. With all of the European boats in the US--WHY, WHY don't they have a reasonably-wide selection of metric fasteners? I live in the LOS ANGELES area! I have to go to Ventura to find a tool shop that also sells a boat part that I need when there are TWO WM stores within 7 mi of my slip? If I have to spend a whole bunch of time on-line searching for a caphead metric SS bolt then why not get the other stuff I need while I'm at it? IF WM wants to be an on-line catalogue-store instead of a local shop with helpful people--then they'd better get prices down, free shipping, etc., and all of that. "I can order it for you and it will be here Tuesday" is NOT the answer I'm looking for. I can frigin' order it myself on-line and get it TOMORROW!!

For the fasteners you are talking about (and lots of other hardware items of this sort), check out McMaster-Carr, which has a superb on-line system and really fast shipping. Plus, in your case, you could order it on line, instruct them to hold it in Will Call, and then jump in your car and drive out and get it. (They are located in in Norwalk, CA.) It will be waiting for you when you arrive.

Kings Gambit · Mar 25, 2015

Alan Gomes said:
For the fasteners you are talking about (and lots of other hardware items of this sort), check out McMaster-Carr, which has a superb on-line system and really fast shipping. Plus, in your case, you could order it on line, instruct them to hold it in Will Call, and then jump in your car and drive out and get it. (They are located in in Norwalk, CA.) It will be waiting for you when you arrive.

Thanks. I've used them before to buy bearings to fix my windlass the last time, and to purchase a 316 SS caphead allen bolt for my saildrive!!! Maybe you sold it to me.

Stu Jackson · Mar 25, 2015

Yes, MMC is good for that stuff. If there's free shipping for $5 of maybe 10 fasteners.

I'll say it yet again: any good hardware store should have a wide variety of fasteners.

I often don't know the exact size, so I'll get an assortment, including things I usually forget like washers, locknuts, nylocks, etc., when I'm shopping in person. Not so easy to do online.

Some stuff is much better seeing and feeling. And that's exactly what most folks said over the years, even when WM's reputation was going down the drain. Like over the course of the past five years or so.

Scott T-Bird · Mar 25, 2015

Maybe not horrifying ...

Stu Jackson said:
But Kermit's right, it's the bottom line, regardless of what the core business is and what is right for the customer. In Kermit's example, F the patients. Truly horrifying.

I think Kermit's point is that the highest priority a company has is to be profitable so that it is possible to stay in business. A healthcare provider can't provide wonderful services to patients if they lose money and investors, and can't stay in business.

Yes, there are the typical arguments that the store doesn't care about their customers and it's sad that the profit motive seems to over-ride good deeds. But the reality is that everything is consumer driven and businesses can only respond to what the customers show that they want by their purchases rather than demand by their words. It's pretty obvious that ever since WM had to adjust their prices to support the expansion of brick and mortar stores, many customers stopped buying equipment and parts that could be purchased elsewhere at a lower price. WM has no choice but to adapt to the consumers. Are the executives fools for changing their business plan? I don't know ... the proof will be in their survival or failure.

You can be sure that the customers will always find something to gripe about and find some reason to look elsewhere for whatever it is they want to purchase.

Stu Jackson · Mar 25, 2015

Not really, Scott

WM built up brick & mortar stores they didn't need. Read my last post. I go to one store, they don't have it but send me to one 4 minutes away? That's nonsense and it is ALSO BAD BUSINESS.

No need to blame the customer.

Don't get me started on for profit health care. It's an oxymoron.

Kings Gambit · Mar 25, 2015

Stu Jackson said:
I often don't know the exact size, so I'll get an assortment, including things I usually forget like washers, locknuts, nylocks, etc., when I'm shopping in person. Not so easy to do online.

Some stuff is much better seeing and feeling. And that's exactly what most folks said over the years, even when WM's reputation was going down the drain. Like over the course of the past five years or so.

Yeah-- it's Sunday, the stanchions are coming off for rebedding and I damage one or two of the SS fine-thread, flathead (Phillips) fasteners and need replacements RIGHT THEN to put the thing back together so I can replace the covering panels and seal up the job b/f the end of the day. Where do I go to GET THAT METRIC BOLT?? I'm in Los Angeles/Long Beach--the answer is maybe the True Value hardware store a few miles away in Wilmington will have it but likely not. Quick, run 9 miles home to the computer to do a web search for the bolt and find it at MMC? No--that's where I need my friendly neighborhood WM store--the one that drove the other stores out of business that might have had such a thing, to have it. DO THEY?--NO--not even close! But, if I want to buy a shirt or a nice foul weather jacket; or get an emergency rewinding of my fishing reel for the trip out early the next morning to fish where there are none--they've got that for me!!

There's hardly any point to being open on Sunday if one's customers have to wait anyway until Tuesday to get the part/item they need that day. This is not brain surgery or rocket science; or am I missing something here?