Weeping keel joint

[mister_j]

Attached are a couple of photos of my keel after haul and store this past winter. I assume this is pretty bad news, but I don't know much about keel joints. Can't get any quick answers from my yard, and I'm starting to sweat. The 86 O'Day 35 has a lead keel, the boat hasn't been grounded since I've owned her (4 years), and I assume the yard didn't drop or bump her when she came out of the water in November.

Anyone been down this slippery slope? What are the possibilities or probabilities? I could sure use some ideas, recommendations from anyone who has experience with the keel joint. I've looked at some posts about dropping and rejoining the keel, but haven't seen much on the process of getting to (or not getting to) that point.

 

[FastOlson]

We had a small seepage in one of our keel bolts, apparent when we bought our boat used, in '94.
Knowing that crevice corrosion is a real threat to ss keel bolts, I had the keel dropped for inspection and re-bedding in '02. Luck was with us and there was only some surface rust on the threads. The hull was prepped and new sealant was applied, and the boat was lowered back onto the keel. Bolts were all torqued up and it's been leak free ever since.

Our boat yard has a good sized steel "cage" just for this purpose -- with that and some wood wedges they easily held the keel while the hull was lifted up/off by the travelift.
Matter of fact, we used that visit to also have the rudder dropped and the seal around the shaft inspected where it comes up from the blade.

In general, I would advise anyone with an external keel to have it re-bedded every 20 or 25 years. The "bolts" are typically engineered with a generous safety margin, but why take a chance?

Loren

 

[Capt jgw]

I'm going to assume that you haul and store the boat every winter, and this is the first time you noticed the problem in four years. If true that's good news, the bolts haven't been exposed to seawater for very long. Several years of salt water trapped in the joint would surely have taken a toll on them, but one year probably not. Also the water doesn't appear to be rusty in the picture. Rusty water would be a very bad sign.
First thing I'd do is torque the bolts. Stainless steel bolts have a pretty low torque value so you don't need fancy tools, just a torque wrench and long enough extensions to get the wrench up out of the keel sump where you have room to swing it. I picked up a 1/2" torque wrench at Harbor Freight for less than $20 and a set of extensions for another $10. Good enough for a one time or once in a while job. The torque value for the 3/4" bolts in my boat is only 129 foot pounds which is easy to do if you have room to lean on the wrench. If all the bolts feel solid when you come up to torque that's good. If one or more feel mushy, or worst of all break off, you know you have a problem. When I did mine, the forward bolt snapped off with only a little pressure, but the keel had been leaking for years and I knew the bolts were bad.
Second step is to grind the paint off the joint and dig out as much sealant as you can. Let the joint dry as long as you can and reseal with 5200. This is one of the two places on the boat where 5200 is the right stuff, the other is the hull / deck joint. That is what it was invented for. Squirt some under the nuts and washers too, bilge water seeping in from above is just as bad as seawater from outside.
I'd then run it another season and see if the weeping appears again.

 

[Sunbird22358]

You list your homeport as Westport, MA. Can I assume you are at F.L. Tripp Boat yard? If so, I'm surprised that they didn't have any answers. They were a big O'DAY Dealer and so should have some knowledge about any possible problems. A phone call to Rudy Nickerson at D&R Marine might get you additional info, as he was the Parts Dept Manager at O'DAY from 1973-89 and he owns a little shop in Assonet, MA (exit 9 of Rte 24N) making and selling ODAY Parts. (508) 644-3001
Maybe you need to find some one at the yard that was there back in the mid-1980's? I think Tripp's even bought a couple of partially finished boats at the Bankruptcy auction to finish off and sell?

 

[mister_j]

Thanks, mates; it's a lot of good information to get me started. I'm still waiting for F. L. Tripp (yup, that's my yard) to give me an opinion, but I am inclined to have the keel dropped, inspected, and reseated. From other owners threads, I've gotten a message that the keel bolts shouldn't be torqued, although I didn't see any mechanical logic behind that theory. Can't afford to have her pulled if I do a patch job that doesn't hold when she goes back into the salt. I'm bound for Maine later in the summer, so I need her tight if I'll be sailing those waters.

I think one of the yard owners who manages boat repairs was around back in 89 when O'Day folded, but he's primarily a power guy. Another owner, who does sales, once had an O'Day 34 and must know 'em as well as anyone. Hopefully I'll hear from them soon with some inside info, but if not, I'll keep nosing around until I get enough info to order the keel dropped. Good idea to drop the rudder as well!

And, yes, this is the first year I've seen any weeping, so maybe I'll luck out. I see Rudy from time to time, but never thought about asking him...that's a good idea that I'll follow up on. I'm sure he'll have something for me to chew on.

Well, thanks, mates; I'll keep an eye on the forums. I appreciate you all for taking the time...good, useful information for an area of the boat I have almost no practical experience with. Fair winds!

 

[eherlihy]

(Ya, I know it's an old thread... and this is an edited copy of this post that I made in 2010)

I thought that I should share a couple of pictures that illustrate my experience with a weepy keel joint.

When I was boat shopping one of the boats I was looking at had "some" moisture in the bilge (actually, most). The owner periodically pumped it out, or let the bilge pump handle it. I'll tell you now that I eventually bought this boat, and will live with the consequences.

When I went to look at the boat, with the intent of purchasing, here is what the bilge looked like:

and here are the keel bolts;

Not too bad - or so I thought...

I eventually made an offer on this boat, and when it went to survey here is what the keel looked like;
Pre powerwash;

Post powerwash;

Something struck me as odd about the keel, and the way that it sat in relation to the hull... After much insistence to the surveyor, and the broker, and the owner, and the yard manager, the surveyor checked it out...

Sure enough, the keel was loose, and the bottom would move about ¼" from side to side. Not a lot, but enough to kill the deal.

The owner faced with this prospect wisely decided to repair the problem and go from there. He had the keel dropped, and here is what we saw;

Four of the seven bolts were TOAST

The owner paid over $9500 to have this situation addressed by the yard.

The yard sent the keel out to I Broomfield & Son in Providence, RI. I asked them about their procedure, and this is what they said;

When replacing keel bolts, we melt the lead around the bolt, remove the old
bolt (which is usually 304 SS), and replace it with a new bolt (316SS). The
lead is replaced and the keel is faired and painted around the area. The
cost is ~$500.00 per bolt. Depending upon the time of year, the number of
bolts that need replacing and how busy we are it usually takes about 4-6
weeks. This price does not include freight. The re-attaching of your keel
is usually taken care of at the boat yard, this is something that we are not
involved with at all.

The yard reattached the keel by first bedding it in 4200 (or something similar), and then lowering the boat onto the keel. Then they wrapped the keel in fiberglass & epoxy, and refaired the keel. Here is a pic AFTER the fix;

The work was done by Brewer's Sakonnet River Marina, and was overseen by their yard manager Dave Rodrigues (I couldn't remember his name, but he ALWAYS wore a Yankees cap) who used to work for Cape Dory. Dave is no longer there, and I don't know if Joe Palmieri would have the knowledge...

Wet bilge = BAD

 

[Rick D]

Nice work! Agree, that bilge & bolts didn't look at all bad.

 

[CloudDiver]

@eherlihy , thanks for posting that. That is one of the best examples of documentation for this problem and illustrates why a full keel drop and re-bed/replace bolts is so critical. So many people across so many forums want any solution outside of doing this (mostly just re-torque the bolts and go, maybe some compound knifed in the joint). The pics of the condition of the bolts should be a scary reminder to any owner what dangers lie unseen deep in the bilge.
In addition to the process outlined above, two things that greatly help prevent future water intrusion; A slight counter bore to the keel bolt holes from the bottom makes the sealing compound create a virtual O-ring around the bolt (most people know this), but a lesser know practice but just as common sense (KISS principle) is to use a rounded bit on a router to create a shallow groove (1/8" will do) around the periphery of the keel. Just like the chamfer on the keel bolt holes, this also allows the sealing compound to create an O-ring type gasket around the entire hull to keel mating surface.

 

[CloudDiver]

@mister_j , if you do a Google video search using the words "keel drop" or similar you find a few good ones. I remember one particularly good one that specifically shows the use of steel wedges to persuade the keel to let go. I would post a link but Youtube is blocked until after 3pm while I am at work... but I'm still on SBO forums, LOL.

 

[eherlihy]

Thanks!
Here is what that same bilge looks like (with the new keel bolts) today (pics taken in September 2016);

Every other year I remove one bolt at a time, polish the stainless, add a little Tef-Gel, and retorque the nut. I do this to every bolt.

 

[CloudDiver]

That's a nice, clean bilge. I digg the fat backing plates... nice work.

 

[Brian S]

Wow, great pictures and write-up! This shows how SS reacts to being wet all the time - or being sealed off from air, and being wet. SS stops the steel rusting by forming a chromium oxide surface coating. When there's no air, and the bolt is still wet, the chromium oxide can't form, and the steel can rust, which is what happened to this keel's bolts. Replacing with 316 was good, as there is a higher chromium content to the 316 alloy.

 

[Sunbird22358]

I thought those pictures looked like the Tiverton, RI shoreline just North of Brewers Sakonnet Marina (North Yard)! I had friends with boats down there in around the early 1990's. Those bolts were scary!

 

[CloudDiver]

I'm pretty sure I've seen a yard removing bad keel bolts with an oxy/ac torch... but I wonder if you could clamp the business end of an arc welder to the bad bolt and resistance would generate the heat needed to quickly melt the lead around the bolt? I'm only thinking out loud because I remember the 'trench' created by the torch to get the J part of the bolt out (deep, wide, and messy). Somehow I know someone is going to make a dirty joke out of that.

 

[Sefuller]

@eherlihy , I assume that is an O'day 35? Our 34 (with cast iron shoal draft keel) only has a single row of 5 keel bolts - I wonder if the double rows are only for the deep fin keel, or if it was an across the board change?

 

[njlarry]

Thanks for sharing your experience, and the great pictures. It makes me wonder about our keel.

A few thoughts. ..on our shoal draft 1984 34 all but the first and last bolts are double row, all but one has only one nut, when I first torqued them some were very loose, there is usually some water in the bildge from rain water down the mast even on the hard, the surveyor after tapping them with a hammer declared them good, our keel is lead and not magnetic, the sealant is not 5200 which is a good thing.

A few questions. ....the keel joint looked good to me with no sign of weeping what did you see that made you suspect, how was the surveyor able to move so heavy a keel, are those hollow areas I see at keel top, how do you annually remove your bolts and could that have been done without dropping the keel, and finally what ever happened to the PO of this thread??

Once again thanks for all the great advice.

 

[eherlihy]

@Sefuller - yes, that is an O'day 35. Yours is the first 34/35 that I have heard of with a cast iron keel. I know that sailboatdata.com says that they are iron, but my keel, and the few other O'day 34/35s that I have seen were all lead.

@njlarry - I suspected that there was something wrong because while the boat was in the travel lift, the deck was not horizontal. Perhaps the boat had a slight list when she was raised in the slings, or the slings were tightened more on one side than the other. IDK. The list was toward the ladder in the pic. below. The keel, however, was dead vertical to my eye. I only noticed this because I had just snapped this picture;

and I wanted to take another from directly in front of the boat as she sat in the slings. It was only off a couple of degrees, but it caught my eye and I insisted that the surveyor check on it. The yard manager said that it probably came like that from the factory, and then the broker quoted the yard manager, but I stuck to my observation. The surveyor EASILY moved the keel - in fact I believe that he simply brushed against it while checking the hull for delamination. He showed me, that it easily moved, and the deal was off.

Yes there are hollows in the top of the keel - filled with foam. I believe that these are there to maintain the ballast ratio, thereby allowing the boat to maintain its LWL. Remember that O'day offered a choice with the 34/35 of deep (5'7"- 4600lbs) or shoal draft (4'5" 4650lbs) keel. An extra foot of lead would have made the deep draft version about 300lbs heavier than the shoal draft version.

I remove the nuts holding the keel bolts with a breaker bar and a deep socket that I purchased for just this purpose. I do not drop the keel every year (or ever). Installing new keel bolts, however, does require dropping the keel.

 

[eherlihy]

My bottom line on this subject is this;
If my keel joint looked like this;

I would drop, inspect, and re-bed the keel ASAP! Consider it a 30-year maintenance item.

Unexpectedly dropping your keel while out sailing with friends and family in a stiff breeze could ruin your whole day.

 

[njlarry]

Great information that I never knew.
Why does the keel have to be removed to replace the bolts? If they melt the lead how well would the new pour area bond with the old?
I am starting to worry as mine always floats with a port list.
Thanks again.

 

[eherlihy]

Because one needs to melt the lead to remove and replace the "J" shaped bolts that are set in the keel. Lead melts at 327.5ºC. The resins that hold FRP together begin to rapidly decompose between 80ºC and 100ºC, depending upon the specific resin used.

The keel bolts must be aligned properly with the keel. This is not the type of work that I would let a yard tackle on their own.

There is a good article on the subject by William Souter available to download from the Mars Keel website here: https://marskeel.com/production/repair-modifications/keel-bolt-replacement/