Hello all, I have severe weather helm when sailing close hauled. I have an incling that my rig is not tuned quite right. What are some ways to fix this problem. I know sail controls will help but specifically the mast adjustments. Thank you GB
Weather helm
- Thread starter El Capitano
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Backstay
Loosen your backstay. Too much rake on your mast will increase weather helm. Don't take it all out though, it's better to have too much than too little; especially if you are new or semi new to sailing.
Loosen your backstay. Too much rake on your mast will increase weather helm. Don't take it all out though, it's better to have too much than too little; especially if you are new or semi new to sailing.
Causes of Weather Helm
These include: Old, baggy sails (especially the main) Mast raked too far aft. Sails not properly trimmed. Not reefing soon enough. This includes using too large a foresail (a 150 for instance) as winds rise over 10-15 knots. Try the archives, because we have had some great discussions on weather helm, with lots of practical, specific solutions discussed. David Lady Lillie
These include: Old, baggy sails (especially the main) Mast raked too far aft. Sails not properly trimmed. Not reefing soon enough. This includes using too large a foresail (a 150 for instance) as winds rise over 10-15 knots. Try the archives, because we have had some great discussions on weather helm, with lots of practical, specific solutions discussed. David Lady Lillie
Another thought
Last year I corresponded with a guy who complained of strong lee helm with a boat he had just bought. He eventually learned that someone had replaced the original mast and boom with spars from a later model boat, which was set up with a higher aspect rig (taller mast, shorter boom). So check your dimensions against the stock figures just in case an earlier owner has altered the balance by replacing different length spars and different dimensioned sails.
Last year I corresponded with a guy who complained of strong lee helm with a boat he had just bought. He eventually learned that someone had replaced the original mast and boom with spars from a later model boat, which was set up with a higher aspect rig (taller mast, shorter boom). So check your dimensions against the stock figures just in case an earlier owner has altered the balance by replacing different length spars and different dimensioned sails.
You are right Stan
By tightening your backstay you are putting more bend in the mast and so flattening the sail (depowering)but this is very different to the rake of the mast where more rake to the stern will increase weather helm.
By tightening your backstay you are putting more bend in the mast and so flattening the sail (depowering)but this is very different to the rake of the mast where more rake to the stern will increase weather helm.
David's Right
El C Just reef first, it'll go away. Mast rake can be controlled IF you have a bendy rig, which just ain't the case on our Catalinas, regardless of size. Don't believe any of that muck about mast rake (OK, OK, I surrender - sure it may help a little, but telephone poles just donna wanna bend, guys). Stu
El C Just reef first, it'll go away. Mast rake can be controlled IF you have a bendy rig, which just ain't the case on our Catalinas, regardless of size. Don't believe any of that muck about mast rake (OK, OK, I surrender - sure it may help a little, but telephone poles just donna wanna bend, guys). Stu
am I confused (again)...
I've had my Oday240 for a year now, and deal with weather helm in the same way as advised already - drop traveller, depower the rig, reef as needed. I've raced J24's for almost 20 years. When the wind gets blowing, one of the tools to keep the helm balanced and the boat moving is to TIGHTEN the running backstay (more rake in the mast). I would not think running a "loose" backstay would help this situation. I'll have to check the archives...I recall the discussions, but my brain isn't as good as it used to be.
I've had my Oday240 for a year now, and deal with weather helm in the same way as advised already - drop traveller, depower the rig, reef as needed. I've raced J24's for almost 20 years. When the wind gets blowing, one of the tools to keep the helm balanced and the boat moving is to TIGHTEN the running backstay (more rake in the mast). I would not think running a "loose" backstay would help this situation. I'll have to check the archives...I recall the discussions, but my brain isn't as good as it used to be.
more bend in the mast
IF IT DOESN'T BEND HOW DOES THIS HELP? C'mon, all the theoretical arguments make NO sense if the mast is a relative telephone pole. Please, start working the idea that the only bendy masts occur on dinghies and A-Cup boats. Let's get real. Stu
IF IT DOESN'T BEND HOW DOES THIS HELP? C'mon, all the theoretical arguments make NO sense if the mast is a relative telephone pole. Please, start working the idea that the only bendy masts occur on dinghies and A-Cup boats. Let's get real. Stu
A common factor in dealing with weather helm is seldom mentioned. A dirty or foul bottom can be a sole and significant cause. I bought a Catalina 30 last year in the water, and was disapointed with it's pointing and weather helm. I swam on the bottom and noted it was sound and not dirty, but quite rough from poor painting tecknique. I recently finnally hauled for repainting and saw the surface was very rough and bumpy obviously frm boat yard paint jobs with no sanding and rolled on paint.I attacked the bottom with a good orbital knocking off the bumps and repainting with a 4 inch brush [no roller]. tipping carefully. The immediate difference was astounding. Weather helm just about disapeared,I gained nearly a knot sail or power, and pointing greatly improved. We even placed in the Beer Can. I have always brushed on bottom paint, but it is hard to get a yard to brush. They want a quicky job rolled on by unskilled labor, with only a pressure wash. In short order, the bottom is a mess. Good sailing Ron B
Stu, I'm with ya on the unbendable mast, but...
I'm with ya on the unbendable mast, but why does my (relatively new to me) C27 have an adjustable split backstay? I know when I crank on that thing that fat mast aint bending but what's it for? I never notice any effect adjusting it either way.
I'm with ya on the unbendable mast, but why does my (relatively new to me) C27 have an adjustable split backstay? I know when I crank on that thing that fat mast aint bending but what's it for? I never notice any effect adjusting it either way.
Greg,
I'm afraid both you and Stu are wrong. Most masts are not just poles that don't bend. Most do, and that is a major factor in sail shape, performance and weather helm. Weather helm usually develops from an unbalanced sail plan. Bending the mast not only reshapes the sail but also moves the CE of the sail plan. A poorly tuned rig with blown out sails will usually develop a CE too far aft. The net affect will make the boat weather vane or develop weather helm. Decreasing mast rake will also move the CE forward minimizing weather helm. Mast rake and mast bend are two entirely different things. One has nothing to do with the other. Bending the mast with increasing backstay tension has NO affect on rake.
I'm afraid both you and Stu are wrong. Most masts are not just poles that don't bend. Most do, and that is a major factor in sail shape, performance and weather helm. Weather helm usually develops from an unbalanced sail plan. Bending the mast not only reshapes the sail but also moves the CE of the sail plan. A poorly tuned rig with blown out sails will usually develop a CE too far aft. The net affect will make the boat weather vane or develop weather helm. Decreasing mast rake will also move the CE forward minimizing weather helm. Mast rake and mast bend are two entirely different things. One has nothing to do with the other. Bending the mast with increasing backstay tension has NO affect on rake.
2 Answers
Greg why does my (relatively new to me) C27 have an adjustable split backstay To tighten the forestay [that's all it can do] Skipper Most do, and that is a major factor in sail shape, performance and weather helm Nonsense, at least Catalinas do NOT. See answer to Greg's question, above. Bending the mast with increasing backstay tension has NO affect on rake You're absolutely right. A poorly tuned rig with blown out sails will usually develop a CE too far aft. The net affect will make the boat weather vane or develop weather helm. Decreasing mast rake will also move the CE forward minimizing weather helm Yes, but it just CAN'T be done with a telephone pole mast. {Like we all have on our Catalinas} Mast rake and mast bend are two entirely different things. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Rake on a telephone pole is pretty much like trying to bend it. They simply don't bend and the ONLY thing a backstay tensioner can do on a telephone pole is tighten the forestay. Haven't we been here before? Sorry to kinda disagree, but the concepts that you propose are absolutely (gee, did I use that word again?) right, but are totally INAPPLICABLE TO OUR BOATS with their inherent masts. I've had a C22 (3 years) , a C25 (11 years) and a C34 (6 years). Ain't nuttin' bendin' on my masts, ever. But it's great to have a backstay tensioner. Stu Sorry for the rant, but I've been through all this before. I won't even mention the archives....
Thanks for listening.
Greg why does my (relatively new to me) C27 have an adjustable split backstay To tighten the forestay [that's all it can do] Skipper Most do, and that is a major factor in sail shape, performance and weather helm Nonsense, at least Catalinas do NOT. See answer to Greg's question, above. Bending the mast with increasing backstay tension has NO affect on rake You're absolutely right. A poorly tuned rig with blown out sails will usually develop a CE too far aft. The net affect will make the boat weather vane or develop weather helm. Decreasing mast rake will also move the CE forward minimizing weather helm Yes, but it just CAN'T be done with a telephone pole mast. {Like we all have on our Catalinas} Mast rake and mast bend are two entirely different things. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Rake on a telephone pole is pretty much like trying to bend it. They simply don't bend and the ONLY thing a backstay tensioner can do on a telephone pole is tighten the forestay. Haven't we been here before? Sorry to kinda disagree, but the concepts that you propose are absolutely (gee, did I use that word again?) right, but are totally INAPPLICABLE TO OUR BOATS with their inherent masts. I've had a C22 (3 years) , a C25 (11 years) and a C34 (6 years). Ain't nuttin' bendin' on my masts, ever. But it's great to have a backstay tensioner. Stu Sorry for the rant, but I've been through all this before. I won't even mention the archives....
Thanks for listening.
Skip, I was speaking more or less about my boat
I realize that with multiple, swept back spreaders and fractional rigging and what have you, the shape of the main sail can be changed by bending the mast (by adjusting the backstay I assume). However, my boat has single non-swept spreaders and is masthead rigged. My understanding is that my mast is not what you would consider "bendy" and I really don't know why the backstay would be adjustable. When on a close reach, I'll still crank that sucker down but I feel like I'm only testing my compression post rather than changing the shape of my main.
I realize that with multiple, swept back spreaders and fractional rigging and what have you, the shape of the main sail can be changed by bending the mast (by adjusting the backstay I assume). However, my boat has single non-swept spreaders and is masthead rigged. My understanding is that my mast is not what you would consider "bendy" and I really don't know why the backstay would be adjustable. When on a close reach, I'll still crank that sucker down but I feel like I'm only testing my compression post rather than changing the shape of my main.
OK Fred, You Asked for It
We are just embarking on a 2 week cruise, Hadda get it out. I'll miss you guys and Admirals (oh gosh, did I say that?) while I'm gone, but NO TV, not a wireless anything in site, should be as good as the race we did today. Have a good month, see you early August. Stu PS nm.............
We are just embarking on a 2 week cruise, Hadda get it out. I'll miss you guys and Admirals (oh gosh, did I say that?) while I'm gone, but NO TV, not a wireless anything in site, should be as good as the race we did today. Have a good month, see you early August. Stu PS nm.............
Have a great trip. We leave for a month the
first of August. Won't be back until the second week of September. Might run into (figuratively) John Nanz and Gary. We are almost ready. Need a coax to the backstay for the ham and a zipper for the bimini to match the new adjuster. Oh, we have to teach the pups how to poop on the boat in the 'right' spot or leave them behind.
first of August. Won't be back until the second week of September. Might run into (figuratively) John Nanz and Gary. We are almost ready. Need a coax to the backstay for the ham and a zipper for the bimini to match the new adjuster. Oh, we have to teach the pups how to poop on the boat in the 'right' spot or leave them behind.
Not a co-ax !!!
The antenna feed wire from Tuner to Backstay is NOT co-axial, it should be GTO15 HIGH VOLTAGE cable, or at least tinned primary wire - not coax. Use the largest size wire practical (I use #6 tinned wire). Since your coupler will try to tune the wire running from the coupler to your antenna along with the antenna element, it’s important to use only primary wire for this run. Coax cable run for this application can interfere with proper tuning due to the coax shielding.
The antenna feed wire from Tuner to Backstay is NOT co-axial, it should be GTO15 HIGH VOLTAGE cable, or at least tinned primary wire - not coax. Use the largest size wire practical (I use #6 tinned wire). Since your coupler will try to tune the wire running from the coupler to your antenna along with the antenna element, it’s important to use only primary wire for this run. Coax cable run for this application can interfere with proper tuning due to the coax shielding.
Thanks Gord but that brings up a couple questions
The first is that I've read that the antenna needs to be a specific length. Years ago my rigger installed the insulators at what seemed to be at the time, less than the longest length that the backstay would provide. I've since read that the length should be about 24'. (Help me on this Hams, I'm not a Ham but the radio is clipped for SSB use) If the lead to the antenna is not shielded, then the whole length becomes an antenna. That's the way we had it set up before. When we would key the mike the autopilot would go into standby. Not good when your underway. And the radio didn't work well either. But I don't know much about this stuff. Back to you Gord.
The first is that I've read that the antenna needs to be a specific length. Years ago my rigger installed the insulators at what seemed to be at the time, less than the longest length that the backstay would provide. I've since read that the length should be about 24'. (Help me on this Hams, I'm not a Ham but the radio is clipped for SSB use) If the lead to the antenna is not shielded, then the whole length becomes an antenna. That's the way we had it set up before. When we would key the mike the autopilot would go into standby. Not good when your underway. And the radio didn't work well either. But I don't know much about this stuff. Back to you Gord.
HF Antennas
FRED: I’m not an HF expert. The (back stay) antenna does not need to be a specific length, IF you are using an Automatic Tuner (coupler). Longer antennas are better (35 - 75 Ft.), but anything over 23 Feet is acceptable. You are correct in indicating that the feed wire (Tuner to backstay antenna) is part of the antenna’s radiating length. If the feed wire was shielded, it would be unable to radiate, event though the tuner "saw" it's presence. The lower 7 feet of antenna must be effectively insulated against casual crew contact - you’re putting out a lot of power. Low-mount insulators (near deck) require that you insulate the lower 7' or so of back stay. These shroud covers tend to “roll” in the hand, making the stay a poor hanhold. Others prefer to install the insulator above hand height, connecting the feed wire above it. This requires that you install feed cable “stand-offs”, themselves a threat to good hand-holding. It’s a “Hobb’s Choice”, to which RF theory doesn’t apply. I’m not surprised that your SSB introduced error into your autopilot. It’s normally recommended that the feed wire be limited to a maximum distance of about 5 feet (shorter is better); but I believe that this distance is measured inside the boat, and that additional lengths (outside the boat) can radiate properly. Generally “poor” HF radio operation might more likely be due to ineffective grounding, which is VERY common - almost universally so. There’s LOTS of ways to go (somewhat) wrong with grounding. HTH Gord
FRED: I’m not an HF expert. The (back stay) antenna does not need to be a specific length, IF you are using an Automatic Tuner (coupler). Longer antennas are better (35 - 75 Ft.), but anything over 23 Feet is acceptable. You are correct in indicating that the feed wire (Tuner to backstay antenna) is part of the antenna’s radiating length. If the feed wire was shielded, it would be unable to radiate, event though the tuner "saw" it's presence. The lower 7 feet of antenna must be effectively insulated against casual crew contact - you’re putting out a lot of power. Low-mount insulators (near deck) require that you insulate the lower 7' or so of back stay. These shroud covers tend to “roll” in the hand, making the stay a poor hanhold. Others prefer to install the insulator above hand height, connecting the feed wire above it. This requires that you install feed cable “stand-offs”, themselves a threat to good hand-holding. It’s a “Hobb’s Choice”, to which RF theory doesn’t apply. I’m not surprised that your SSB introduced error into your autopilot. It’s normally recommended that the feed wire be limited to a maximum distance of about 5 feet (shorter is better); but I believe that this distance is measured inside the boat, and that additional lengths (outside the boat) can radiate properly. Generally “poor” HF radio operation might more likely be due to ineffective grounding, which is VERY common - almost universally so. There’s LOTS of ways to go (somewhat) wrong with grounding. HTH Gord
Thanks Gord, I'm studying your advice. Hey,
didn't this thread start out asking about weather helm? *O
didn't this thread start out asking about weather helm? *O
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