I was wondering whether any other H33 (shoal draft) owners experience weather helm to the degree I see on mine. I find myself reefing in under 15kts of wind, not due to heeling, but due to excessive weather helm. Also, can't point worth a damn. I read several of the owner reviews and didn't see any similar complaints. Have been trying to decide whether the problem is due to old sails that I can't flatten sufficiently, too small of a headsail (about 100%), improper trim (don't think so), or if it is just characteristic of the boat's design. Am considering a keel extension from Mars Metals, however lagging an extra 700 lbs. of lead to the bottom sounds like a bit of an undertaking. Thoughts?
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Jeff D
Rig Tuning
Most modern boats are very well designed and should not demonstrate excessive weather helm if tuned correctly. In fact, you can if you wanted, actually produce lee helm. Yes old sails do create some helm but I would attack the problem by doing a thorough job of tuning your rig. Better yet find a rigger and let them show you how to tune the rig. Ask questions and you will have gained some valuable knowledge. Don't waste your money on a new keel. Buy new sails instead.
Most modern boats are very well designed and should not demonstrate excessive weather helm if tuned correctly. In fact, you can if you wanted, actually produce lee helm. Yes old sails do create some helm but I would attack the problem by doing a thorough job of tuning your rig. Better yet find a rigger and let them show you how to tune the rig. Ask questions and you will have gained some valuable knowledge. Don't waste your money on a new keel. Buy new sails instead.
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Jim Logan
My 33 has weather helm in 15 kts
I have an add-on in mast furling system on my 1980 H33, so that may make some difference, but I find that I need to roll up about 1/3 of the mainsail as the wind gets to 15kts or so, otherwise, no matter how I trim or what sort of headsail I use, the wheel is cranked about 1/3-1/2 a turn. If I reef in the mainsail and let the jib do the work, the boat is flatter and faster, and the weather helm goes away. I think it is a characteristic of the 33 to be that way, as I have read others on this site write of the same problem. Mine is the deep keel model, so I would think the problem might be worse with the shoal draft. Proper sail trim and mast angle can make a difference, though.
I have an add-on in mast furling system on my 1980 H33, so that may make some difference, but I find that I need to roll up about 1/3 of the mainsail as the wind gets to 15kts or so, otherwise, no matter how I trim or what sort of headsail I use, the wheel is cranked about 1/3-1/2 a turn. If I reef in the mainsail and let the jib do the work, the boat is flatter and faster, and the weather helm goes away. I think it is a characteristic of the 33 to be that way, as I have read others on this site write of the same problem. Mine is the deep keel model, so I would think the problem might be worse with the shoal draft. Proper sail trim and mast angle can make a difference, though.
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C. Timmons
Would a larger headsail help?
Since I get excessive weather helm w/o excessive heel, would a larger headsail help balance it out?
Since I get excessive weather helm w/o excessive heel, would a larger headsail help balance it out?
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steven f.
probably
This boat is jib driven so I'd say that a larger head sail would help. By the way, I too have a H33 with the shoal keel and we too need to reef at around 15-20 kts. We find that she is not a racing boat but she will perform well for a cruiser. Once you accept that the boat likes a single reef at 15-20 knots you will be fine and shouldn't have too many problems. By the way, we use a 135% jib as our working jib. Also, we put on a brand, spanking new main sail two years ago and the increase in handling and performance was great, she felt like a new boat! I couldn't imagine a new main AND jib. I'd start with new rags before getting too wild with anything else but that is just my opinion. good luck.
This boat is jib driven so I'd say that a larger head sail would help. By the way, I too have a H33 with the shoal keel and we too need to reef at around 15-20 kts. We find that she is not a racing boat but she will perform well for a cruiser. Once you accept that the boat likes a single reef at 15-20 knots you will be fine and shouldn't have too many problems. By the way, we use a 135% jib as our working jib. Also, we put on a brand, spanking new main sail two years ago and the increase in handling and performance was great, she felt like a new boat! I couldn't imagine a new main AND jib. I'd start with new rags before getting too wild with anything else but that is just my opinion. good luck.
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Jeff D
15 knots
I find it interesting that people seem reefing at 15knts is unusual and if you have to, the boat is tender. We are talking about lightweight coastal cruisers for the most part, that probably carry at least a 135 on a furler if not more. I think if you search around Catalinas. Beneteaus, O'Days, or any light to medium displacement cruiser, most owners indicate that they need to start a reef at around 15knts. These boats are not oyster crushers with stumpy masts that can't move in light air. These are boats designed to sail in conditions most likely to found by their owners. Sure you can leave all of the sail up above 15 knts but I'm willing to bet that with a reduced sail plan you will be faster, more level and point better. There is nothing wrong in burying the rail for fun but realize that you are at a point of diminishing returns.
I find it interesting that people seem reefing at 15knts is unusual and if you have to, the boat is tender. We are talking about lightweight coastal cruisers for the most part, that probably carry at least a 135 on a furler if not more. I think if you search around Catalinas. Beneteaus, O'Days, or any light to medium displacement cruiser, most owners indicate that they need to start a reef at around 15knts. These boats are not oyster crushers with stumpy masts that can't move in light air. These are boats designed to sail in conditions most likely to found by their owners. Sure you can leave all of the sail up above 15 knts but I'm willing to bet that with a reduced sail plan you will be faster, more level and point better. There is nothing wrong in burying the rail for fun but realize that you are at a point of diminishing returns.
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C. Timmons
Jeff
I'm not burying the rail in 15. In fact I rarely bury the rail. Typically, one would think you wouldn't need to reef until you at least get close. That is not the case here. In 15 kts, I am moderately heeled, but have half to three quarters a turn on the helm going to weather. Just looking to keep my shoulder from getting pulled out of its socket. When I talk to my friends w/ similar sized Catalinas and Beneteaus, I don't hear similar complaints. Most talk about a first reef at around 20kts breeze. I think your first post was on the money. I am going to have a rigger walk me through tuning the rig, and I am going to have a sailmaker take a look at my main.
I'm not burying the rail in 15. In fact I rarely bury the rail. Typically, one would think you wouldn't need to reef until you at least get close. That is not the case here. In 15 kts, I am moderately heeled, but have half to three quarters a turn on the helm going to weather. Just looking to keep my shoulder from getting pulled out of its socket. When I talk to my friends w/ similar sized Catalinas and Beneteaus, I don't hear similar complaints. Most talk about a first reef at around 20kts breeze. I think your first post was on the money. I am going to have a rigger walk me through tuning the rig, and I am going to have a sailmaker take a look at my main.
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Jeff D
Misunderstood
I did not mean to imply that you would bury a rail at 15 knts. Sorry about that. I meant that without reducing sail, some people sail in higher winds which means burying the rail at some point just for the thrill of it. I have seen many people say they put in a reef at 15 knts on this site and others. What they don't say is whether they are flying a 110, 135, 150 or whatever. I know my Cat 22,and 25 sailed much better when reefed at around 15 but then again I also had 150s (no furler). The same goes for my Hunter 28.5 which also carries a 150 on a furler. With the 150 on a masthead rig the main tends to get back winded anyway. When I first got this boat, it had significant weather helm. After tuning the rig it will sail on course in excess of 2 minutes with out moving the wheel with proper sail trim. I have no wheel brake. I have to tell you that I was pretty anal in tuning this boat up to and including counting the threads on all the turnbuckles and swages. I still would emphasize tuning the rig as a first step to reduce your helm. Good luck, I'm sure that you will be able to get the prpoblem resolved.
I did not mean to imply that you would bury a rail at 15 knts. Sorry about that. I meant that without reducing sail, some people sail in higher winds which means burying the rail at some point just for the thrill of it. I have seen many people say they put in a reef at 15 knts on this site and others. What they don't say is whether they are flying a 110, 135, 150 or whatever. I know my Cat 22,and 25 sailed much better when reefed at around 15 but then again I also had 150s (no furler). The same goes for my Hunter 28.5 which also carries a 150 on a furler. With the 150 on a masthead rig the main tends to get back winded anyway. When I first got this boat, it had significant weather helm. After tuning the rig it will sail on course in excess of 2 minutes with out moving the wheel with proper sail trim. I have no wheel brake. I have to tell you that I was pretty anal in tuning this boat up to and including counting the threads on all the turnbuckles and swages. I still would emphasize tuning the rig as a first step to reduce your helm. Good luck, I'm sure that you will be able to get the prpoblem resolved.
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Ernie T.
Add me to the list!
I too have the same problems with my '79 H33. I've tried tweeking the rigging, differant levels of reefing (both Main and Genny) but still have the wheel cranked about a quarter turn or so in anything above 15 knots. I'm trying a new Main this Spring. Hope it works! It sounds like it should.
I too have the same problems with my '79 H33. I've tried tweeking the rigging, differant levels of reefing (both Main and Genny) but still have the wheel cranked about a quarter turn or so in anything above 15 knots. I'm trying a new Main this Spring. Hope it works! It sounds like it should.
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David Foster
Larger genny adds to weather helm
Weather helm is caused by sail area behind the center of effort of the keel and hull. A larger genny adds sail area aft, increasing weather helm. So does more mast rake (since this moves the whole rig aft.) The secondary cause is a baggy sail. Using trim controls (tightening the vang, outhaul, haliard, cunningham, and sheet) to flatten the main will help. But a new main virtually eliminated weather helm on our Cherubini h27 up to 15-20 knots. (It also reduced heel by about 5 degrees, and added 1-1 1/2 knots of boat speed in around 15 knots of wind.) When a sail is old and baggy, you can't trim out the bulge! On the other hand, messing with the keel design will slow down the boat (more wetted surface on the keel, and the hull) and reduce the resale value of the boat. David Lady Lillie
Weather helm is caused by sail area behind the center of effort of the keel and hull. A larger genny adds sail area aft, increasing weather helm. So does more mast rake (since this moves the whole rig aft.) The secondary cause is a baggy sail. Using trim controls (tightening the vang, outhaul, haliard, cunningham, and sheet) to flatten the main will help. But a new main virtually eliminated weather helm on our Cherubini h27 up to 15-20 knots. (It also reduced heel by about 5 degrees, and added 1-1 1/2 knots of boat speed in around 15 knots of wind.) When a sail is old and baggy, you can't trim out the bulge! On the other hand, messing with the keel design will slow down the boat (more wetted surface on the keel, and the hull) and reduce the resale value of the boat. David Lady Lillie
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Sam Lust
My observations on 33 (C) weather helm
First, you neglected to tell us if your 33 is shoal or full depth keel. It does make a difference. The full depth keel 33 has a reputation for being a stiff, good pointing design. The shoal keel difinitely ads to the excitement as the wind pipes up. Add in a fairly flat bottom at midship, a mast placed far enough aft for a cutter and a definitely undersized rudder and you have the makings for some serious weather helm. Jeff D. said it quite well in his post. 15 Knots IS reefing time for the 33. Period. You say your 33 is properly trimmed but you don't mention traveler position. I will GUARANTEE you if you drop the main traveler down to leward the boat will stand right up and ease the helm markedly. If I let the car drop down fast and stop it abruptly you can see and feel the boat come upright and regain response to the helm. When the wind is up I keep a hand on the windward traveler line (which comnes right back to the wheel) and drop the traveler further in the big puffs. I even drop it to the point of baxckwinding the main, which doesn't seem to make too much difference. When I'm steadily in that condition I know it's time to reef. The one major modification I've done aside from tuning the mast more upright was to increase the size of the rudder by adding about 1 1/2" to the trailing edge of the rudder. It made a difference, and if I have time this winter I plan to add another few inches. (more is better?) The 33 (C) REQUIRES more attention to trim than any other boat I've been on including the Catalina 30 which wandet to be reefed at the same 15 knots of wind to remain effective.
First, you neglected to tell us if your 33 is shoal or full depth keel. It does make a difference. The full depth keel 33 has a reputation for being a stiff, good pointing design. The shoal keel difinitely ads to the excitement as the wind pipes up. Add in a fairly flat bottom at midship, a mast placed far enough aft for a cutter and a definitely undersized rudder and you have the makings for some serious weather helm. Jeff D. said it quite well in his post. 15 Knots IS reefing time for the 33. Period. You say your 33 is properly trimmed but you don't mention traveler position. I will GUARANTEE you if you drop the main traveler down to leward the boat will stand right up and ease the helm markedly. If I let the car drop down fast and stop it abruptly you can see and feel the boat come upright and regain response to the helm. When the wind is up I keep a hand on the windward traveler line (which comnes right back to the wheel) and drop the traveler further in the big puffs. I even drop it to the point of baxckwinding the main, which doesn't seem to make too much difference. When I'm steadily in that condition I know it's time to reef. The one major modification I've done aside from tuning the mast more upright was to increase the size of the rudder by adding about 1 1/2" to the trailing edge of the rudder. It made a difference, and if I have time this winter I plan to add another few inches. (more is better?) The 33 (C) REQUIRES more attention to trim than any other boat I've been on including the Catalina 30 which wandet to be reefed at the same 15 knots of wind to remain effective.
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C. Timmons
Sam
Well Sam, I actually said in the first sentance of my post that she is a shoal draft. Also, you say that if I drop my traveler, she will stand right up. Well, she isn't severely heeled at that point, just helmy. And, I wouldn't have overlooked that. I see that others have similar complaints, and that is what I was after. Looks like my problem is a combination of boat design, old sails, and rig tuning. Thanks all. /c
Well Sam, I actually said in the first sentance of my post that she is a shoal draft. Also, you say that if I drop my traveler, she will stand right up. Well, she isn't severely heeled at that point, just helmy. And, I wouldn't have overlooked that. I see that others have similar complaints, and that is what I was after. Looks like my problem is a combination of boat design, old sails, and rig tuning. Thanks all. /c
suggestions
I would go to a slightly larger headsail, like a 110/115 for normal sailing. I have no idea why but the first-generation Hunters tended to be sold with 100s. Mine has one too. I would also reestablish mast rake at about 30 inches (measured at the deck with a weight dropped from the halyard). Taking up on the backstay will increase forestay tension which, with the new jib, will help a lot. Be sure tune all shrouds for the improved rake as well. The 'lagged-on' keel extension soulds sloppy, heavy, risky and expensive. Better would be an entirely new keel. Remember all shoal-draft keels tend to be compromises in performance-- a sad fact of production-boat marketing. (What's a shoal-draft boat doing in California anyway?? --wink) JC 2
I would go to a slightly larger headsail, like a 110/115 for normal sailing. I have no idea why but the first-generation Hunters tended to be sold with 100s. Mine has one too. I would also reestablish mast rake at about 30 inches (measured at the deck with a weight dropped from the halyard). Taking up on the backstay will increase forestay tension which, with the new jib, will help a lot. Be sure tune all shrouds for the improved rake as well. The 'lagged-on' keel extension soulds sloppy, heavy, risky and expensive. Better would be an entirely new keel. Remember all shoal-draft keels tend to be compromises in performance-- a sad fact of production-boat marketing. (What's a shoal-draft boat doing in California anyway?? --wink) JC 2
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David Foster
Consider an asymetric
If you are not racing, where going hard to weather is around 50 percent of your sailing time (more like 5 percent for cruising), the asymetric will give you more power than a 150 on any reach in light air, and it's very easy to fly with your 110-115 furled. If you are racing in light air, then you need a 150, but I still doubt you can compete with the higher SA/D and low wetted surface of a modern, lighter hull. David Lady Lillie
If you are not racing, where going hard to weather is around 50 percent of your sailing time (more like 5 percent for cruising), the asymetric will give you more power than a 150 on any reach in light air, and it's very easy to fly with your 110-115 furled. If you are racing in light air, then you need a 150, but I still doubt you can compete with the higher SA/D and low wetted surface of a modern, lighter hull. David Lady Lillie
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Bob Hutchison
I also had a weather helm problem with the H33(full keel). I was able to replace the dual plates below the roller furler with a shorter double toggle. This shortened the forestay by approximately 1-2 inches which in turn reduced the mast rake and reduced the weather helm considerably. This is an inexpensive fix and definitely worth the try. It now sails with a balanced helm even when using the 150
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Stu Sauer
Unusual source for Weather Helm
I once sailed with friends who semed to have a weather helm problem, and as we sailed with the rudder a little further over than I t should have been, I noticed a noise -- the fixed prop was spinning the transmission or freewheeling. In any case the spinning prop created turbulence in front of the rudder, so the wheel had to be turned a litle more to make the rudder more 'effective'. In fact we shifted into reverse to 'lock' the rudder. If you know how the shaft / keyway is alligned with the prop you could tell when the prop is fixed in vertical alignment. Theoretically rotate the prop to vertical, shift into reverse and creat less turbulence, hence less rudder and less 'weather helm'.
I once sailed with friends who semed to have a weather helm problem, and as we sailed with the rudder a little further over than I t should have been, I noticed a noise -- the fixed prop was spinning the transmission or freewheeling. In any case the spinning prop created turbulence in front of the rudder, so the wheel had to be turned a litle more to make the rudder more 'effective'. In fact we shifted into reverse to 'lock' the rudder. If you know how the shaft / keyway is alligned with the prop you could tell when the prop is fixed in vertical alignment. Theoretically rotate the prop to vertical, shift into reverse and creat less turbulence, hence less rudder and less 'weather helm'.
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