Greetings friends, While sailing my Cherubini H-33 in strong winds this past weekend, I once again found the helm over powered occasionally and although I've been aware of this condition for several years, I thought why not mention it in the forum and see if there are any old salts out there with some pearls of wisdom. Our Friend Sam Lust has inlarged his rudder and when I last spoke with Sam, he was happy with the change in performence. I'm sure if JC II is tuned in he would discourage anyone from messing with his father's design. My 33 came with a 110 jib which has been replaced with a 150 Genny. I thought that should have helped the situation as the weather-helm comes from an over powered main....yes? Any thoughts? Thanks, Don Bodemann PS: Sam, I tried to e-mail you and apperently you have a new addresse
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Mark Mowery
H33 weather helm
I also have replaced the 110 on my H33 with a roller furling 150 so our setups are similar. Here's what seems to work for me: when the wind exceeds 15 knots, it's time for the first reef in the main, with maybe a bit of genny rolled in if the helm wants it. (Sometimes I look a little strange sailing around with the reef in when all the Bayfields in my area are still carrying full sails.) Taking in the reef doesn't seem to effect on boat speed to any great degree, and it makes the Admiral much happier.
I also have replaced the 110 on my H33 with a roller furling 150 so our setups are similar. Here's what seems to work for me: when the wind exceeds 15 knots, it's time for the first reef in the main, with maybe a bit of genny rolled in if the helm wants it. (Sometimes I look a little strange sailing around with the reef in when all the Bayfields in my area are still carrying full sails.) Taking in the reef doesn't seem to effect on boat speed to any great degree, and it makes the Admiral much happier.
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Sam Lust
3 Answers (You Knew I had Them!)
The 33 (at least mine) seems severely overcanvassed when our Barnegat Bay afternoon Express kicks up. Even the new sails can't take care of all of it, but they do help reduce it in the more moderate ranges. I haven't figured out how to calibrate my new wind instrument yet so I'll guess the trouble starts at about 17 knots or so. I start out by thghtening the halyard and outhaul to flatten the sail, and tighten the boom vang. The biggie though is dropping the traveler way down to leeward. This brings the boat back to a reasonable angle of heel, in itself reducing tendency to round up. When this no longer works I go for the first reef on the main, and I'm finding taking a turn on the jib furler helps. (My new headsail is a 135. The 150 is way too much for the 33 on Barnegat.) As it continues to pipe up I roll up more of the Jib. I finaly set up the second reef on the main and used it this weekend when it got insane out there. The key I guess is to reef any time you're rounding up more than going straight. My nephew and I tacked to the south end and flew back north on the poled out 135. By that time it was time for the second reef. I was surprised at how well the boat balanced that way. A big factor is furling lots of the genoa. The genoa DOES induce weather helm on the 33. You can feel it by flying your 150 full without the main when it gets crazy. The main just adds insult to injury. Again, in the moderate ranges dropping the traveler is a major help. (Having the control lines for the traveler back at the helm is a big plus also) The enlargement of the rudder, a strip about 1 3/4" all told is a distinct help both on the wind and running. MUCH better control down wind, and the loss, if any is not measurable. I wish I had added more. Last item: My companies e-mail server is non compus mentus, and MIA, as are the IT guys, so I opened a hotmail account. tough to remember though: samlust@hotmail.com Last last item: When the heck are we getting together on the bay or for dinner?
The 33 (at least mine) seems severely overcanvassed when our Barnegat Bay afternoon Express kicks up. Even the new sails can't take care of all of it, but they do help reduce it in the more moderate ranges. I haven't figured out how to calibrate my new wind instrument yet so I'll guess the trouble starts at about 17 knots or so. I start out by thghtening the halyard and outhaul to flatten the sail, and tighten the boom vang. The biggie though is dropping the traveler way down to leeward. This brings the boat back to a reasonable angle of heel, in itself reducing tendency to round up. When this no longer works I go for the first reef on the main, and I'm finding taking a turn on the jib furler helps. (My new headsail is a 135. The 150 is way too much for the 33 on Barnegat.) As it continues to pipe up I roll up more of the Jib. I finaly set up the second reef on the main and used it this weekend when it got insane out there. The key I guess is to reef any time you're rounding up more than going straight. My nephew and I tacked to the south end and flew back north on the poled out 135. By that time it was time for the second reef. I was surprised at how well the boat balanced that way. A big factor is furling lots of the genoa. The genoa DOES induce weather helm on the 33. You can feel it by flying your 150 full without the main when it gets crazy. The main just adds insult to injury. Again, in the moderate ranges dropping the traveler is a major help. (Having the control lines for the traveler back at the helm is a big plus also) The enlargement of the rudder, a strip about 1 3/4" all told is a distinct help both on the wind and running. MUCH better control down wind, and the loss, if any is not measurable. I wish I had added more. Last item: My companies e-mail server is non compus mentus, and MIA, as are the IT guys, so I opened a hotmail account. tough to remember though: samlust@hotmail.com Last last item: When the heck are we getting together on the bay or for dinner?
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David Foster
Hi, Don
Have to say I have appreciated your contributions in Good Old Boat, and say thank you. To echo Sam, I understand these actions to reduce weather helm: - New sails. Replacing the baggy main on our '77 h27 was the single most important move we made. - Right sails. I understand that a 150 is a light weather sail. It does cause weather helm in heavy weather. We use a cruising spinnaker in light air, then unroll a 110 when the winds mount. - Timely reefing of the main before the genny. Sam covered this well. - Sail tuning. Getting the traveler right helps heel and weather helm. Flattening the main also helps (main sheet and/or vang, outhaul, and halyard.) Our new main is loose-footed, and I think this makes tuning easier. With the genny sheets led outside of the shrouds, the sheeting angle of the jib/jenny is over 20 degrees (on our h27). It is useless (and causes heel and weather helm) to set the traveler to give a much tighter angle of attack to the main. - Rig tuning. More rake gives more weather helm by moving the sail plan aft. Less rake means less weather helm. About 3-4 degrees of rake supposedly keeps the main perpendicular to the slight downdraft on the wind on the water, but variations to balance the rig seem more important to me. - Sail more relaxing courses. If I'm day-sailing, I choose reaching courses for the best crew comfort, and good speed. When we are cruising, we relax and wait for the right wind - usually to get to the next destination on a reach. Sometimes we change destinations for the same reason. Whether day-sailing, racing, or cruising, the excessive rudder needed to keep an unbalanced boat (another expression for weather helm) on course slows you down considerably. A larger rudder will just slow you even more. So I encourage you to work on balancing the sails, tuning, and rig rather than cobbling the rudder. David Lady Lillie
Have to say I have appreciated your contributions in Good Old Boat, and say thank you. To echo Sam, I understand these actions to reduce weather helm: - New sails. Replacing the baggy main on our '77 h27 was the single most important move we made. - Right sails. I understand that a 150 is a light weather sail. It does cause weather helm in heavy weather. We use a cruising spinnaker in light air, then unroll a 110 when the winds mount. - Timely reefing of the main before the genny. Sam covered this well. - Sail tuning. Getting the traveler right helps heel and weather helm. Flattening the main also helps (main sheet and/or vang, outhaul, and halyard.) Our new main is loose-footed, and I think this makes tuning easier. With the genny sheets led outside of the shrouds, the sheeting angle of the jib/jenny is over 20 degrees (on our h27). It is useless (and causes heel and weather helm) to set the traveler to give a much tighter angle of attack to the main. - Rig tuning. More rake gives more weather helm by moving the sail plan aft. Less rake means less weather helm. About 3-4 degrees of rake supposedly keeps the main perpendicular to the slight downdraft on the wind on the water, but variations to balance the rig seem more important to me. - Sail more relaxing courses. If I'm day-sailing, I choose reaching courses for the best crew comfort, and good speed. When we are cruising, we relax and wait for the right wind - usually to get to the next destination on a reach. Sometimes we change destinations for the same reason. Whether day-sailing, racing, or cruising, the excessive rudder needed to keep an unbalanced boat (another expression for weather helm) on course slows you down considerably. A larger rudder will just slow you even more. So I encourage you to work on balancing the sails, tuning, and rig rather than cobbling the rudder. David Lady Lillie
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Don Bodemann
The real problem
Dave, did you really say "Sail more relaxing courses"? OK guys, I guess the "over canvasing thing" is the answer. You need to understand how and why I sail. My other half, the admiral, isn't happy unless we're healing 25 degrees with the rail in the water! This normally quiet shy woman gets this wild look in her eyes and starts screaming "MORE"! Honest...it's not me! If it were just me, I'd pull in a reef or two, suck in a rap or two on the furler, and yes...sail a more relaxing course. Thanks for the input Don PS: Sam, we're coming down Thursday for a funeral. Perhaps we can do dinner Friday night?
Dave, did you really say "Sail more relaxing courses"? OK guys, I guess the "over canvasing thing" is the answer. You need to understand how and why I sail. My other half, the admiral, isn't happy unless we're healing 25 degrees with the rail in the water! This normally quiet shy woman gets this wild look in her eyes and starts screaming "MORE"! Honest...it's not me! If it were just me, I'd pull in a reef or two, suck in a rap or two on the furler, and yes...sail a more relaxing course. Thanks for the input Don PS: Sam, we're coming down Thursday for a funeral. Perhaps we can do dinner Friday night?
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David Foster
Like heel? Move the sails forward
Hmmm, great response, Don. If you want to reduce weather helm at extreme heels, then rake your mast forward to move the center of force from the sails near to the center of rotation of your hull. How about getting a full batten, roachy mainsail to give you more drive higher up, but closer to mast? Or how about a bowsprit to move the genny forward? Maybe some sly hints to your Admiral that heeling over 20 degrees actually slows the boat down (this is true by the way.) Great problem to have, Don. David LAdy Lillie
Hmmm, great response, Don. If you want to reduce weather helm at extreme heels, then rake your mast forward to move the center of force from the sails near to the center of rotation of your hull. How about getting a full batten, roachy mainsail to give you more drive higher up, but closer to mast? Or how about a bowsprit to move the genny forward? Maybe some sly hints to your Admiral that heeling over 20 degrees actually slows the boat down (this is true by the way.) Great problem to have, Don. David LAdy Lillie
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steven f.
my two cents worth
Just one last bit for you. I noticed when I replaced my old blown out main (held together with lots of sail tape) with a nice new one I got a significant amount of weather helm relief. I also noticed that I need to reef the main around 15-18 knots, like every body else driving a H33, and I can keep the 135 jib full. This along with easing the traveler has a very positive effect on weather helm. Now a question for Sam about your rudder. Which part of the rudder did you add the extra glass to? I'm hauling in six months and might consider that.
Just one last bit for you. I noticed when I replaced my old blown out main (held together with lots of sail tape) with a nice new one I got a significant amount of weather helm relief. I also noticed that I need to reef the main around 15-18 knots, like every body else driving a H33, and I can keep the 135 jib full. This along with easing the traveler has a very positive effect on weather helm. Now a question for Sam about your rudder. Which part of the rudder did you add the extra glass to? I'm hauling in six months and might consider that.
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Sam Lust
Rudder enlargement
I added one inch to the trailing edge, bringing it to a fasirly sharp edge, and to maintain the 20% balance I added about a quarter of an inch to the fat leading edge, sharpening it up the tiniest bit. To support the laminate in it's wet stage I drilled several holes in the trailing edge, screwed in stainless screws and cut off the heads, leaving about 3/4" standing clear. As I recall I built up with thickened epoxy just to act as filler to support the wet glass work till it cured, and to eliminate a hollow area for water to collect in. In this case I just slapped on hard thickened resin that I was using to fair my extremely badly cast keel when it got too trowel onto the keel. After it cured I ground it to shape with belt and disk sanders to get the shape I wanted. The trailing edge was, if I recall made with several stepped layers of biaxial glass with epoxy resin. Leadig edge was just thickened resin slapped on and sanded when cured. Then I covered the whole rudder in a few layers of glass, just in case. For what it's worth I could not see anything that looked like glass work in the rudder. Just foam core with possibly a resin covering of some sort. That's the reason, right or wrong why I covered the rest of the rudder in glass. I'm hoping that the reinforcement helps the rudder survive the pounding it inevetably gets on our very shallow bay every year. The only thing I would do differently here here is I would make the extension bigger, probably going to about 1 3/4" on the trailing edge and about 1/3" on the leading edge.
I added one inch to the trailing edge, bringing it to a fasirly sharp edge, and to maintain the 20% balance I added about a quarter of an inch to the fat leading edge, sharpening it up the tiniest bit. To support the laminate in it's wet stage I drilled several holes in the trailing edge, screwed in stainless screws and cut off the heads, leaving about 3/4" standing clear. As I recall I built up with thickened epoxy just to act as filler to support the wet glass work till it cured, and to eliminate a hollow area for water to collect in. In this case I just slapped on hard thickened resin that I was using to fair my extremely badly cast keel when it got too trowel onto the keel. After it cured I ground it to shape with belt and disk sanders to get the shape I wanted. The trailing edge was, if I recall made with several stepped layers of biaxial glass with epoxy resin. Leadig edge was just thickened resin slapped on and sanded when cured. Then I covered the whole rudder in a few layers of glass, just in case. For what it's worth I could not see anything that looked like glass work in the rudder. Just foam core with possibly a resin covering of some sort. That's the reason, right or wrong why I covered the rest of the rudder in glass. I'm hoping that the reinforcement helps the rudder survive the pounding it inevetably gets on our very shallow bay every year. The only thing I would do differently here here is I would make the extension bigger, probably going to about 1 3/4" on the trailing edge and about 1/3" on the leading edge.
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david mccollough
Rudder interior
Sam sounds like you've acquired some rudder knowledge. Maybe you'd be kind enough to advise me. Recently had an accident on my 33' in foul weather. Almost a funny story. I have to tell some of so my question makes sense. All happened one day! 1st fractured 3 ribs. Weather got bad quickly. No experienced help. Couldn't get anchor up. Went all around in seas and high wind trying. Cut loose and realized almost simultaneously rudder cable gone. Tried to steer from below but rudder jammed. Sea Tow arrived and got home finally. Question is; Since shaft is not leaking could rudder have shifted on the frame. What's the inside of the rudder like? Gonna haul this weekend but thought you might have some thoughts.
Sam sounds like you've acquired some rudder knowledge. Maybe you'd be kind enough to advise me. Recently had an accident on my 33' in foul weather. Almost a funny story. I have to tell some of so my question makes sense. All happened one day! 1st fractured 3 ribs. Weather got bad quickly. No experienced help. Couldn't get anchor up. Went all around in seas and high wind trying. Cut loose and realized almost simultaneously rudder cable gone. Tried to steer from below but rudder jammed. Sea Tow arrived and got home finally. Question is; Since shaft is not leaking could rudder have shifted on the frame. What's the inside of the rudder like? Gonna haul this weekend but thought you might have some thoughts.
More points about weather helm
I know I answered this somewhere else but can't recall where now. It was in response to another question about weather helm. A lot of people forget something crucial and I know I am no help when I say that sailing with a partly-rolled in jib is no good. The other thing that is no good is the OTHER extreme, like a 150 or 170 rolled all the way out. All of a genoa's area flown aft of the mast is essentally contributing to the main's area, and thus the weather-vane effect that blows the bow round into the wind. Make sure you are sailing under proper sail for the conditions before shouting 'weather helm'. As the weather builds the effect gets more noticable. In weather RIGHT BEFORE reefing strength are you: - sailing under full main and 110? - keeping weight in boat balanced, especially as much as possible towards the centre of the boat? - sheeted properly for weather? (trying to hold a tight tack in 20-30 kts may be futile) - using a vang/preventer to avoid boom-end lift in gusts? - minding outhaul, downhaul, luff tension, etc.? - using sails in good condition? Like everything else this issue has no fast and easy answer. But at the risk of sounding pigheaded, I think logic dictates that blaming the basic design of the boat is probably a false hope. There are too many other variables more likely to be responsible, and, sadly, in the end the most likely of these is 'pilot error'. Or, in the words of Murphy's Law on Technology (poster above my dad's desk years ago), 'When all the elements and factors and conditions are strictly controlled, the organism will do as it d*mn well pleases.' Hmmm. JC 2
I know I answered this somewhere else but can't recall where now. It was in response to another question about weather helm. A lot of people forget something crucial and I know I am no help when I say that sailing with a partly-rolled in jib is no good. The other thing that is no good is the OTHER extreme, like a 150 or 170 rolled all the way out. All of a genoa's area flown aft of the mast is essentally contributing to the main's area, and thus the weather-vane effect that blows the bow round into the wind. Make sure you are sailing under proper sail for the conditions before shouting 'weather helm'. As the weather builds the effect gets more noticable. In weather RIGHT BEFORE reefing strength are you: - sailing under full main and 110? - keeping weight in boat balanced, especially as much as possible towards the centre of the boat? - sheeted properly for weather? (trying to hold a tight tack in 20-30 kts may be futile) - using a vang/preventer to avoid boom-end lift in gusts? - minding outhaul, downhaul, luff tension, etc.? - using sails in good condition? Like everything else this issue has no fast and easy answer. But at the risk of sounding pigheaded, I think logic dictates that blaming the basic design of the boat is probably a false hope. There are too many other variables more likely to be responsible, and, sadly, in the end the most likely of these is 'pilot error'. Or, in the words of Murphy's Law on Technology (poster above my dad's desk years ago), 'When all the elements and factors and conditions are strictly controlled, the organism will do as it d*mn well pleases.' Hmmm. JC 2
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